Fuel 19lbs EV6 fuel injectors, what fuel pressure???

[PonyGTrider]

If your canister is soaked in fuel your over filling the tank or you have a constant strong vacuum on it sucking fuel from a valve stuck open. Once there soaked its replacement time. Has the car ever been hard to fill with an auto shut off pump and you having to hold the gas Pump handle so it doesnt trigger and shut off early?

Haven't looked at a fox body canister in years or think I ever opened one up, but most of them that vent to atmosphere will be a one way valve or another selonid controlling the vent. We got them all the time working when I was in dealerships, mostly because once it's jacked they can't fill thier tanks with out the auto trigger nozzle shutting off from pressure build up, either plugged with fuel, or failed valves. Your going to need someone with a bin dump for the ecu to see programming for the purge on fox body stuff. Those system are way dumber then modern day obd2 so most people ignored or bypassed the systems by plugging lines or removing it all together. I only run them to deal with fumes and use newer model ones mounted by the tank.

I don’t over-fuel the tank and never had a hard time re-fueling. The charcoal canister is soaked because no vapors are withdrawn from it and all I smell from the two venting ports is raw fuel instead of filtered air thru the charcoal pellets.

Like I said during my test no ground signal was sent by the ECU AND I know the wire is good from the purge valve to the ECU 60 pin connector.

Believe it or not I opened and reactivated the charcoal pellets and sealed it back no more fuel smell at the venting ports, but I don’t want to install it until I see the purge solenoid valve opening and closing normally.
Here is my freshly rebuilt charcoal canister

 

[rednotch]

Your only getting raw fuel in the canister one of two ways, its not going to condense vapors into a liquid, it can only absorb so much, that's why they are vented. You said soaked, so I assume you meant liquid gas. Those old canisters are vented to atmosphere without a solenoid like newer systems, just the engine side has one to control flow into the engine. It never triggering an automatic pump shut off tells you the vents where never blocked, the two capped ports in the middle are the vents. If you had raw wet fuel in the canister you had vacuum pulling it from the tank, or enough pressure build up in the tank to force fuel into the line. The system in a fox body is as basic as it gets. I'd try the same test with an incandescent test light over led, but pick up the ground directly off pin 31 to eliminate any wiringing issues. There is no bilateral testing on the eec iv so without fords procedures or a bin file dump your probably not going to find info on when it should trigger, only test I could think of that you could see if its working and you know for sure it is triggered is during a eec self test.

 

[PonyGTrider]

Your only getting raw fuel in the canister one of two ways, its not going to condense vapors into a liquid, it can only absorb so much, that's why they are vented. You said soaked, so I assume you meant liquid gas. Those old canisters are vented to atmosphere without a solenoid like newer systems, just the engine side has one to control flow into the engine. It never triggering an automatic pump shut off tells you the vents where never blocked, the two capped ports in the middle are the vents. If you had raw wet fuel in the canister you had vacuum pulling it from the tank, or enough pressure build up in the tank to force fuel into the line. The system in a fox body is as basic as it gets. I'd try the same test with an incandescent test light over led, but pick up the ground directly off pin 31 to eliminate any wiringing issues. There is no bilateral testing on the eec iv so without fords procedures or a bin file dump your probably not going to find info on when it should trigger, only test I could think of that you could see if its working and you know for sure it is triggered is during a eec self test.

Well I cracked open the charcoal canister and pulled all the pellets and my hand where oily and smelling pure raw fuel, some of the pellets fall onto a styrofoam platter and it go melted thru. I understand the whole sequence of how the canister handles the vapors.

What was very strange to me was that the purge solenoid valve never opened during the test and there is no issues with the wires to the purge valve. I checked both of them with my DVM and there is a 0.5 ohms of resistance. This not opening condition might be the reason of why the charcoal canister is overly saturated because the purge valve aparently is not evacuating the stored fuel vapors.
Like my description of my test says I used an LED test light and also my DVM and never noticed the purge valve being actuated by the ECU. That is my A9L, I have an altertate ECU that I might try, it is an A9P. I don't know what else to do...

About your last paragraph, so do you think the purge valve could be actuated while running a KOER test, based on the premise that all sensors and actuators are tested during this test??? Didn't think about that possibility and I will definitely try that.

Thanks man

 

[PonyGTrider]

A quick update:
I ran all three scans first on my A9L ECU.
Disconnected the battery and replaced the A9L with the other ECU I have which is an A9P.
All three scans were exactly the same with both ECU's:

TEST CODES
KOEO : 11 - 10 - 11
KOER : 11 - 10 - 94 -44
CYLINDER BALANCE : 8 - 90

I was hopping to see the purge solenoid valve to be activated during any of those test (Scans) but it didn't with neither ECU.
On the other hand I don't see anything unusual that explain the pathetic fuel economy (MPG) of 9 - 9.5 miles per gallon. I expected to see codes 94 and 44 as I've deleted all the emissions system, but I know those two codes aren't the cause of my initial problem, so I just ignore them.

As far as the EVAP charcoal canister purge solenoid valve not opening I've installed a temporarily test lamp on top of my dash so I can see when that purge valve gets the ground signal from pin 31 of the ECU... If it does, I'm very sceptical it will not open.

Opinions? Suggestions?..... Complaints?

 

[Noobz347]

Disconnect the solenoid and see if it gives you a code.

Other thoughts: Remove the solenoid and leave it open to see what, if any, effect it has.

 

[rednotch]

How are you checking it, what type of bulb in your test lamp..., if it didn't trigger you should have a code 85.

 

[PonyGTrider]

Disconnect the solenoid and see if it gives you a code.

Other thoughts: Remove the solenoid and leave it open to see what, if any, effect it has.

I did that and got code 85
No effects whatsoever. There is zero ground reaching the purge valve…

 

[PonyGTrider]

How are you checking it, what type of bulb in your test lamp..., if it didn't trigger you should have a code 85.

I piggy back the purge valve connector with two wires and at the other end of the wires inside the cabin I rigged a little socket with one of those light bulbs used for the cluster illumination. Started and warmed up the engine and ran all three tests but the ECU never opened the purge valve and didn’t get the error code 85, only when I unplugged the purge valve on purpose.

I’m a bit confused about when the ECU will open the purge valve, some places say that the purge valve will open as soon as you start up the engine and . Other places say that that will happen at idle, and others say that the purge valve at cruising speed. Well mine doesn’t open at all with neither with the two ECU’s I have.

Oh and by the way my purge solenoide valve is good, I measured it’s resistance and it has 60.1 ohms. The specs some people say it can be between 15 ohms and 75 ohms, others say 15 ohms to 130 ohms. And it opens nicely with 12 v source and it even opens with a 9 v battery, and closes tightly when de-energized.

 

[rednotch]

Wayback Machine

Page 20 on PDF only thing I could find online with testing procedures, not much there. Wonder what all data or ford has for it, only thing I miss about working in shops.

 

[Dan02gt]

Here's the purge strategy for the A9L. Hope it helps.

 

[PonyGTrider]

Wayback Machine

Page 20 on PDF only thing I could find online with testing procedures, not much there. Wonder what all data or ford has for it, only thing I miss about working in.

Thanks for sharing,
I followed the CANP Solenoid Tests and the last test is kind of weird. As outlined I disconnected the solenoid and connected the DVM to the harness connector. at KOEO it says to depress the throttle several times and it will show 0.5 Volts or greatter... Well when I open the ignition switch to the ON position my DVM shows battery voltage or 12 Volts. but when I use the test light bulb the voltage goes to zero. the positive lead still has 12 volts but the ground signal dissapears. if I remove the light bulb the ground signal returns and I have 12 volts again on my DVM. it is like if I connect the solenoid valve (The light bulbe in this case) the circuit shortens out and the ground signal never returns so the solenoid never opens.

What to do from here???

This test was performed with the A9P computer hooked up. I'm almost possitive that with the A9L I don't have that voltage because there is no ground signal when I open the ignition but I wil verify that by switching computers once again and will share the results.

Pardon me:
I just edited this comment to update it: I exchanged the A9P with the A9L computer and the results are exactly the same as described above. The voltage drops to 00.4 millivolts as soon as I install the light bulb cutting the ground signal completely.

I don't really know what to do next to have this purge valve working. I'm this issue this non purge valve has some effect on my main issue which is the horrendously poor fuel economy...

 

[Noobz347]

How would one test for "Valve Float"?

 

[PonyGTrider]

Here's the purge strategy for the A9L. Hope it helps.

Thanks for sharing, well according to those figures the purge valve suppose to be evacuating fumes from the canister at idle but I have zero function. Some cars like nissan the purging solenoid is activated every few seconds at idle so it is constantly burning those vapors from the fuel tank. I'm almost possitive that my charcoal canister got overly saturated because that purge valve never opens, and the raw fuel fumes in the engine bay are ridiculous and potentially dangerous, thats why I really want to correct this issue.

 

[PonyGTrider]

Has anyone have phisically tested the functionality of the EVAP purge solenoid valve or we all are just assuming it is working because we don't see error code # 85 ?????

 

[PonyGTrider]

How would one test for "Valve Float"?

I would guess with a cylinder balance test but I will be wrong… I think, because valve float will happen a high rpm.
Possibly valve float could cause some valve to piston contact so probably a compression test would give you some idea, but to be honest I’m not sure… Did that help??? Probably not but I tried

 

[Noobz347]

I would guess with a cylinder balance test but I will be wrong… I think, because valve float will happen a high rpm.
Possibly valve float could cause some valve to piston contact so probably a compression test would give you some idea, but to be honest I’m not sure… Did that help??? Probably not but I tried

I am thinking of ways that an engine could consume excessive amounts of fuel and still be within an acceptable AFR and not throw sensor codes.

Valve Float

Thoughts from the engine geniuses?

 

[PonyGTrider]

I am thinking of ways that an engine could consume excessive amounts of fuel and still be within an acceptable AFR and not throw sensor codes.

Valve Float

Thoughts from the engine geniuses?

I will definetely be interested to know of that possibility.
Starting by learning why valve float happens and the two things that could cause that in my sole opinion will be bad lifters and or weak springs al high rpm rates. One thing is for sure I don't drive redlining ike a maniac and because I don't do that surprises me the most about that exessive fuel consumption.
my lifters where too noisy because of not enough pre-load until a few weeks I got tired of them and recalibrated the preload on all of them but the High fuel consumption has been an ongoing issue before I did those adjustments.

So yeah for sure I will be interested on that valve float subject.

 

[General karthief]

Question: the 'test' bulb is like a 194 or 167(?) type, correct?
Valve Float, is the inability of the valve springs to control the valve ie; over revving. (But then you kinda knew that) also week valve springs (you know this too) both of these conditions will produce ill fuel mileage, not what's going on here.
The workings of the purge valve, in this case the possible non-working, is interesting.
We are missing something here.

 

[General karthief]

Have you done a compression test recently?

 

[rednotch]

Thanks for sharing,
I followed the CANP Solenoid Tests and the last test is kind of weird. As outlined I disconnected the solenoid and connected the DVM to the harness connector. at KOEO it says to depress the throttle several times and it will show 0.5 Volts or greatter... Well when I open the ignition switch to the ON position my DVM shows battery voltage or 12 Volts. but when I use the test light bulb the voltage goes to zero. the positive lead still has 12 volts but the ground signal dissapears. if I remove the light bulb the ground signal returns and I have 12 volts again on my DVM. it is like if I connect the solenoid valve (The light bulbe in this case) the circuit shortens out and the ground signal never returns so the solenoid never opens.

What to do from here???

This test was performed with the A9P computer hooked up. I'm almost possitive that with the A9L I don't have that voltage because there is no ground signal when I open the ignition but I wil verify that by switching computers once again and will share the results.

Pardon me:
I just edited this comment to update it: I exchanged the A9P with the A9L computer and the results are exactly the same as described above. The voltage drops to 00.4 millivolts as soon as I install the light bulb cutting the ground signal completely.

I don't really know what to do next to have this purge valve working. I'm this issue this non purge valve has some effect on my main issue which is the horrendously poor fuel economy...

Ditch the bulb as a test, pull vacuum on the valve if you have a little hand pump and see if it fires and releases vacuum when keyed on.