Build Thread 1978 Mercury Cyclone. The pig is in the pen.

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#5,701
I called Aeromotive tech this morning. It made sense to me that the pump I have that cost 220.00, and the Aeromotive version that sells for twice that were the same pump. I wanted to know what dude had to say about the differences that were significant (other than appearance) that made their pump worth nearly 200.00 more dollars.
"What's wrong with the existing pump?" Dude asks..

"It howls like a stuck pig after 20 minutes of run time" I replied.

He said that that was more than likely not the pump. He stated that depending on my line routing, and how may restrictions I had in that line, whether or not a filter was clogged, how many hard 90's were all likely contributors to my noisy assed pump.

So I sent the dude pictures. I'm sure that he'll find the system FULL of potential issues.. I'm waiting to hear back.
 
#5,703
95BlueStallion said:
At least he is being helpful and honest, and not just saying its the pump and feeding you full of sht to sell you one of his. That is friggin rare these days.
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Ohh I agree. The fact that he is taking one minute to look at anything that has no Aeromotive stuff in it is better than I could expect.
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he ain't gonna like all of the 90's He doesn't like the vertically oriented post filter.
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He ain't gonna like 90's that turn into 90's (back of fuel rail)

Some of it I can fix....He said that the post filter doesn't need to be at the back of the fuel system ( I know this,...it's just so damn big) some of it is just gonna have to be...
 
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#5,705
Does the problem occur when you have full tank of fuel?
If not, then the lack of baffles or their lack of effectiveness may contribute to your problem

You have a sump, but what keeps it full of fuel during acceleration and braking?
How many baffles do you have to keep the fuel from sloshing around when you don't have a full tank of fuel?

Air in the pump lines would probably cause an increase in the noise level, and a problem with baffles or their absence could contribute to that increase in noise.

The key clue is that you say the car must be driven for more than 20 minutes before the fuel pump starts to make noise. That may be an indication that the returned fuel is boiling in the tank from the engine heat it picks up. The pump is designed to pump liquid and not a mixture of fuel and vapor. When you pressurize the fuel, the vapor problem goes away because pressure increases the boiling point of any liquid. The engine gets liquid fuel which is good, but the pump is sucking vapor and liquid and complaining while it is pressuring the rest of the fuel system..
 
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#5,706
jrichker said:
Does the problem occur when you have full tank of fuel?
If not, then the lack of baffles or their lack of effectiveness may contribute to your problem

You have a sump, but what keeps it full of fuel during acceleration and braking?
How many baffles do you have to keep the fuel from sloshing around when you don't have a full tank of fuel?

Air in the pump lines would probably cause an increase in the noise level, and a problem with baffles or their absence could contribute to that increase in noise.

The key clue is that you say the car must be driven for more than 20 minutes before the fuel pump starts to make noise. That may be an indication that the returned fuel is boiling in the tank from the engine heat it picks up. The pump is designed to pump liquid and not a mixture of fuel and vapor. When you pressurize the fuel, the vapor problem goes away because pressure increases the boiling point of any liquid. The engine gets liquid fuel which is good, but the pump is sucking vapor and liquid and complaining while it is pressuring the rest of the fuel system..
Click to expand...
Well, that's not unlike what the tech was telling me about a restrictive fuel system causing cavitation.Cavitation adding to the heat of the recirculated system, and w/i a certain time frame,..the pump starts complaining.
There are no baffles in the tank,..It's stock. But the noise happens regardless of whether the tank is full or not. The sump is on the side, and in the middle of the tank at it's lowest point. (the rear of the tank angles up dramatically, i'm guessing to increase up hill ground clearance).
I can't mess with it anytime soon,..But I can stuff the tank w/ fuel cell foam to give it a baffle. I can move the red filter forward onto the frame rail and orient it horizontally,...I can re-configure the pump mounting to eliminate the hard 90 that has to turn 180 before it goes into the prefilter, and I can "soften" the 90 that has to turn vertically where the red filter used to be..

I can do all these things to try and make the fuel system less restrictive. but I can't do jack at the fuel rail...It's a fraction of an inch from the firewall where the turn is. The only thing that could be done there would be to shorten the rail a bit and have a soft(er) nipple welded onto it.
 
#5,708
madmike1157 said:
Well, that's not unlike what the tech was telling me about a restrictive fuel system causing cavitation.Cavitation adding to the heat of the recirculated system, and w/i a certain time frame,..the pump starts complaining.
There are no baffles in the tank,..It's stock. But the noise happens regardless of whether the tank is full or not. The sump is on the side, and in the middle of the tank at it's lowest point. (the rear of the tank angles up dramatically, i'm guessing to increase up hill ground clearance).
I can't mess with it anytime soon,..But I can stuff the tank w/ fuel cell foam to give it a baffle. I can move the red filter forward onto the frame rail and orient it horizontally,...I can re-configure the pump mounting to eliminate the hard 90 that has to turn 180 before it goes into the prefilter, and I can "soften" the 90 that has to turn vertically where the red filter used to be..

I can do all these things to try and make the fuel system less restrictive. but I can't do jack at the fuel rail...It's a fraction of an inch from the firewall where the turn is. The only thing that could be done there would be to shorten the rail a bit and have a soft(er) nipple welded onto it.
Click to expand...

The pump may be sucking in a mix of liquid and vapor due to the heat in the tank from the recirculated fuel and any slosh that is occurring.
It's all the plumbing before the pump that is the likely cause of problems. Try fixing that as a first step.

Once you add pressure to the lines, the boiling point of the fuel increases to the point that fuel boiling in the pressurized lines is unlikely.
 
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#5,709
Damn....I go to New Orleans and all this chit happens. What you need my friend is 3 or 4 VooDoo Dacquiris...or as my brother exclaimed...get your pansy a$$ some Purple Drank! After 3 or 4 of those, you won't give a Hootie and the Blowfish about boost!

If you can get E-85 readily down there, (not here in Memphis) that would be easier to setup in TS and add the FlexFuel sensor, but no more plumbing. And from the sounds of things, that 6 cylinder is pretty much indestructible. It doesn't need oil, doesn't blow head gaskets, doesn't care if it overheats, doesn't care what the gauges say, doesn't care if there's more boost than necessary. Sounds like the perfect engine. Other than having to clean up all the damn oil!!
 
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#5,710
Why cant this be easy?:nonono:

I've been looking for a simple 1,2,3 instruction sheet to learn about, and to add the proper settings into TS so that I can "turn on" the boost controller.
It is so freakin ambiguous, I have absolutely NO CLUE what to do,...how to set it, where to set it,....what a pain in my ass.

THIS is why I disconnected the thing and added an external boost controller.
I'm about one minute from buying another one.......a good one.

Why?,......Why cant they just write a damn simple to understand instruction sheet so that you can understand WHY you are needing to do this, or that?

There are online you tube videos out there but they also assume that you are Jrichker, and that you have been an electronics expert for 40 years,... I just want the "idiots guide to installing and tuning the DIY boost control mod."

It looks like it'll be cool when and if I choose to walk that gang plank and turn that controller on,....but unfortunately, I gotta take part of the dash apart, and remove the stinkin ECU and see what pins I used to come out on so that I can even consider turning the thing on......

Then there's the whole "did I do it right in the first place" thing.....No real specific instructions out there for my specific build circumstance....no " If you have used the FIDLE output already, then....." in the instructions, just throw a dart in the dark, and hope you hit the target....

:dammit:

I'm buying a Turbosmart Boost controller....:nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono:
 
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#5,711
Well have you used the fiddle output? It is a pwm circuit which I don't believe you used because normally it's used for the iac.

I can help with the ts stuff should be able to simply set the curve and make it a feedback circuit. Simple.

We can also test it with a low pressure air feed to simulate boost, just need a regulator that's accurate in the 5-25psi range some extra vacuum line.

The openloop tuning is easy and is tps/rpm based so we should be able to move the throttle position and see a change in the boost control valve. This will let you test if it's working or not.

We can also setup the over-boost protection just in case something goes wrong, if you see over (let's say 12psi) it will cut fuel or spark or both.
 
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#5,713
This makes it simple Mike. this link is for the boost control mod kit DIY sells. It shows the new easy to read diagram [thank **** **** because the old one sucked] it even gives you a list of outputs you can use to make it work. I am going to be using a boost control valve on my new SC setup as well....

https://www.diyautotune.com/product/megasquirt-boost-control-mod-kit/
 
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#5,716
Simple you say?
I think it's far from simple. ( and BTW, I used that schematic when I added this stupid circuit.)

This is my ecu
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Looks pretty good from the outside huh?

No so good when you open it up though.
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The ground, and the one leg of the 10k resistor are blobbed together on the other side of the proto area, and one wire runs to what I was told/read was a ground on the board. The signal apparently is coming from JS 11, and the output goes to a pin 14 pins over as you go right from left ( I put it on whatever pin was supposedly a spare, unused pin IIRC).
On the other end, it comes off the relay board, and goes to spr4 ( again, IIRC). There is switched 12v going to one leg of that solenoid, and the output from spr4 (that should provide the gnd signal).

That's all I can tell ya.

I also DID buy a manual turbo smart boost controller today if I (you) can't help me figure this thing out. I can provide regulated pressure w/ a very accurate 15 p.s.i gauge attached.

I'll leave this thing un assembled until I hear from you.


Tonight's top story though revolves around my noisy assed pump, and the measures I took to change that.

Firstly,....a humble admission...:oops:

The filters were pretty dirty. The inlet filter STILL had a few small chunks of that red junk that was left in the tank, as well as a significant amount of metal filings ( probably as a result of some left over remnants of when I cut the top of the tank open to pull that afterbirth looking red junk out of the tank).

The post filter was so dirty you couldn't blow through it. ( not easily anyway)

I cleaned both of those filters thoroughly first and put the filter housings back together.
Next, I repositioned the pump, and oriented it facing rearward.
It now looks like this:

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I didn't have the -8 tube nuts and sleeves to make the lines to go from the tank to the pump, but they'll be here tomorrow. The plan is to make a soft turn (45degree) that goes into the pre filter, and exit out and turn another 45 degrees into the pump. Doing it this way I'll lose 3 hard 90 degree turns, and a full 180. It should be the fix.

From the pump the line goes around the tank
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And comes back around to where the existing hard line was ( now holding the post filter, oriented horizontally)
image.webp


The rest of the day I spent packing up the garage,....two weeks exactly till the move.
 

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#5,717
Ok Mike as far as I see that thing should work.
Now to test it, wire the solenoid up and feed it air. From the output of the solenoid (going to wastegate) you should get an increasing amount of air as you give it gas.
I will help you set up the settings in TS.

Of course leave things "open" in case changes need to be made.

Feel free to call me to get this working
 
#5,718
a91what said:
Ok Mike as far as I see that thing should work.
Now to test it, wire the solenoid up and feed it air. From the output of the solenoid (going to wastegate) you should get an increasing amount of air as you give it gas.
I will help you set up the settings in TS.

Of course leave things "open" in case changes need to be made.

Feel free to call me to get this working
Click to expand...

Ok, after din-din.
Firstly, isn't there a buttload of settings that have to be set in TS first before anything will work?

Secondly, once that is done, can't we just power up, hook up TS, and apply air to the map sensor? What else does this circuit need to think its adjusting boost?
 
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