Build Thread 1978 Mercury Cyclone. The pig is in the pen.
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From my sense of logic..( which is far from scientific)
So,..lets go to Mike's school of "implied" physics, shall we?
Water recirculating through the IC may be just north of freezing, but the air that moves through it is moving at what? 100,.......200 miles per hour,....more? IDK,...it is a really hard stat to find out how fast air under boost is traveling into, and out of an engine.
In Mike's school, you are gonna be that air.
So,...how cold would you get if you were moving at 200 mph when you entered a 10' block of air that was 33 degrees?
Conversely,...
How cold would you be if I sprayed your ass with water meth the entire time you were moving?
The same one that triggers rage at the sight of red hats...
All I can say is this: If it worked that well then all of the boosted guys at the racetrack would be using it....they don't, they use air/water almost exclusively (there are a few guys still stuck on air/air, but not many) I have my own data-logs that show my air/water I/C pulls about 225+* out of the discharge air temp. There is not a water/meth set up that can do that. And I am only making 21iish psi of boost. I will grant you that for the street a water/meth system works, but for max power, meh, not so much.
I will let you know if I can ever get my chit figured out. No intercooler roots blower with WM....
With what you are doing, you could probably get away with it. It is still one HELL of an undertaking. The lack of a deep lifter valley on Windsor blocks makes you have to stack everything on the top. I'll PM you a link for an after-cooled Kenne Bell that was done on this site. Of all current posters, you'd probably be the most interested.
Now where did I put that...
So how hard would it be to not run back to back datalogs of the IC vs WM? I think the IC would ad least add a layer of security. Like bolting and welding a bracket on. 
You aren't looking at the right venue. Look at truck and tractor pulling competitions where 50 pounds of boost is the norm, and you'll see a greater propensity of water/meth usage.
You're comparing a track car to a street car. I am a minority considering that I'm using an A2W ic on the street. The water reservoir that feeds the ic starts off at ambient, and gets progressively hotter as the water circulates through the system.if not for the " heat exchangers" / radiators back there purposed to cool the water back down to ambient, then the system I'm using would be worse than an A2A. It's way more complex than most people are willing to allow for, or accommodate.
Despite that, mfgs like Ford and BMW use A2W intercoolers, and air cooled heat exchangers to try to cool that water back down..They ( the mfgs) acknowledge the superior temp wicking benefits of having water come in close contact with that air. Even when the water is as hot, or hotter than ambient. ( Cause no way that little finned radiator/heat exchanger that comes on a termi powered Cobra is getting that water anywhere near ambient)
Three things:
1.At a track, where I could dump a bag of ice into the reservoir every time I'd blast the car an 1/8th/1/4 mile at a time, and only have to worry about the heat cycle one race at a time then I'd agree. But I'm talking about a much longer and repeated usage of the same water. I had an A2W ic sitting in the passenger seat on my EZ street car...Ice water was hot water when I got back to the pits. It made me regret having that hot assed intercooler sitting in the passenger compartment with me real quick.
2. Trying to get anybody to change anything when everybody else is doing the same thing is the reason Predator, Barry Grant, and Quick Fuel are all out of business now. If it wasn't a Holley, it wasn't a Holley. Considering that tuning a digital FI system is still like " black magic" to most guys, being able to go with a tune that "your buddy" is running is far easier' and safer than starting over with something else. The fact that "all the guys are doing it" has less to do with something else working better, but more like it's easier and safer to just stay in the herd.
3. The cooling properties of methanol.
I'm sure that you have guys running straight meth w/o any intercooler at all, unless outlawed by your class. The last attempt at me playing with the big boys was a meth fueled car. It ran so cold the intake was cold to the touch. No intercooler of any kind.
Whatever IAT reduction is gained when 50% of the mixture is straight methanol has got to be significant. All I have to do to maintain that, is keep refilling that reservoir every time I fill the car with gas.
I am sure in your application water/meth will do the job quite nicely. Interesting that the OEM's use air/water in all S/C applications and air/air in all turbo applications. Not even an option for water/meth inj.
I can vouch for that! Our 455 Brewik ran a Ron's Flying Toilet methanol injection setup. We started out with a Moroso electric water pump, but after a few trips to the track took that off and never even checked if the rad had water. The block was half filled anyway. We ran back to back 1/4 passes several times, only stopping to refill the 5 gallon fuel cell and the temp gauge never went over 205. All I watched while driving was the tach and the EGT. We had an old school 2 way gauge (1 cylinder left and right bank) and a 4 position switch so I could 'scroll' thru all the cylinders to keep an eye on things. You could tell the oil never got hot because it would get condensation in it. On a humid day the throttle body would have frost on it. On cold days (nights) the challenge was getting enough heat in the engine before make a pass.
Bmws are A2W on the turbo cars as well, excepting a few older models. They are all turbocharged.
stangboy
Founding Member
So, you're gonna depend completely on the WM system for intake charge temp cooling? Sounds sketchy to me. Just seems like it'll be like that guy with a N2O car that is about to run a big money race and halfway down the track he runs out of nitrous and loses because of it.But I understand that you would need the WM for the higher boost you'll be running with it. All that is why I don't really trust using something like that as insurance for "more boost". I, personally, would rather depend on an actual intercooler...but that's just me.
Well he needs the octane from the meth that's part of the mix... but I agree to leave the intercooler from his datalogs it works great.
How did I miss this exchange?
It makes no sense. The intercooler does not keep the car out of detonation. If something fails on the water meth system after the tune is changed to accomate it, the engine will just as surely melt down with, or without it.
The only thing I'm seeing is that the charge temps are potentially lower than they'd be w/o it...Since I don't know how hot the air was going into the intercooler, I have no idea what the thing is doing for me. The only way to find that out is gonna be either I put an IAT sensor before the I/C and tie a gauge to it, (money I'm not gonna spend) ...or make the pipe to replace it and see what's what.
I'll leave it alone since it ain't hurting nothing ( potentially)
Speaking of IAT sensors...Now that I've went ahead, and plumbed that nozzle into the intake manifold. The IAT sensor is immediately in the path of that water mist...( like a few inches further into the intake stream).
Wondering what'll come from that? Probably not a good thing.
It's not too late to relocate the nozzle into the elbow before the throttle body where I've got that pipe plug...but that puts that damn nozzle under the fender,...and can't be changed out w/o removing the tire.
In the long run, I'll probably never need to change it. Once tuned for it, there'll be no need. it's not like a n2o nozzle where jets need to be accessed for adding or taking power away.
Phck it,...I'm moving it.
It makes no sense. The intercooler does not keep the car out of detonation. If something fails on the water meth system after the tune is changed to accomate it, the engine will just as surely melt down with, or without it.
The only thing I'm seeing is that the charge temps are potentially lower than they'd be w/o it...Since I don't know how hot the air was going into the intercooler, I have no idea what the thing is doing for me. The only way to find that out is gonna be either I put an IAT sensor before the I/C and tie a gauge to it, (money I'm not gonna spend) ...or make the pipe to replace it and see what's what.
I'll leave it alone since it ain't hurting nothing ( potentially)
Speaking of IAT sensors...Now that I've went ahead, and plumbed that nozzle into the intake manifold. The IAT sensor is immediately in the path of that water mist...( like a few inches further into the intake stream).
Wondering what'll come from that? Probably not a good thing.
It's not too late to relocate the nozzle into the elbow before the throttle body where I've got that pipe plug...but that puts that damn nozzle under the fender,...and can't be changed out w/o removing the tire.
In the long run, I'll probably never need to change it. Once tuned for it, there'll be no need. it's not like a n2o nozzle where jets need to be accessed for adding or taking power away.
Phck it,...I'm moving it.
Can't you add a 2nd IAT sensor to your mega whatever and data log pre-intercooler air temps? Or does that system not have that capability?
Yes he can, it would be a simple tie in and a data .ini file addition. But why bother? It's unnecessary information for alot of his effort.
Why Bother? Really? It tells you how efficient the I/C system is. And with that knowledge one can make a more informed decision about where to go from there. Data is knowledge. What you do with it is another thing.
I suppose if one was so inclined to go that far. It would be far easier to measure the pressure drop across the core. I believe most turbo have a port on the case he could easily plumb a gauge to that and compare to his known value from the ecu.
His iat temps rise 20* over ambient during a long pull then quickly drop back down that's pretty darn good.
His point was more based on facts... regardless of what the IAT sensor would tell me pre intercooler, it doesn't change the fact that I still have to have the water meth system to go beyond where I currently am at power wise.
So,...in effect it would be pointless information, as it wouldn't apply to the new setup.
Sitting here doing nothin'. It's the iron bowl. Alabama-Auburn. This city comes to a stand still when that game is on. And that includes a retail automotive dealership. There isn't a freakin soul in here that isn't a paid employee.
It kills me.
Coming from the school of I could give a rats red bunion hole about football, I find the whole fan/school/team relationship perplexing.
People lose their sht here when their team loses, so much so that their day is ruined because of the outcome of a football game. The irony is that in a lot of cases, the only thing that links the fan to the team is a choice.
Buford's parents didn't go to the school, Buford didn't go to the school, and Buford the 3rd didn't go to the school either. In some cases, none of Buford's kin folk went to the damn school.
But,.....
Dog that school in front of Buford an-em, and risk getting your ass beat down by a whole posse of drunk red necks.
And it happens every Saturday when Alabama has an early game. Even more so when Alabama is playing the "other Alabama"......Auburn.
I guess it's a good thing actually...
I get to leave, because of the crypt like status of the dealership. And because this game started at 2:30, it'll guarantee that it'll stay that way through end of business today.
So in 30 minutes I'll be out of here......
What to do,......what to do?
Think I'll go to the bar,...and watch the game.
It kills me.
Coming from the school of I could give a rats red bunion hole about football, I find the whole fan/school/team relationship perplexing.
People lose their sht here when their team loses, so much so that their day is ruined because of the outcome of a football game. The irony is that in a lot of cases, the only thing that links the fan to the team is a choice.
Buford's parents didn't go to the school, Buford didn't go to the school, and Buford the 3rd didn't go to the school either. In some cases, none of Buford's kin folk went to the damn school.
But,.....
Dog that school in front of Buford an-em, and risk getting your ass beat down by a whole posse of drunk red necks.
And it happens every Saturday when Alabama has an early game. Even more so when Alabama is playing the "other Alabama"......Auburn.
I guess it's a good thing actually...
I get to leave, because of the crypt like status of the dealership. And because this game started at 2:30, it'll guarantee that it'll stay that way through end of business today.
So in 30 minutes I'll be out of here......
What to do,......what to do?
Think I'll go to the bar,...and watch the game.
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