408 in the Plans

[Guero]

After loosing to a cammed LS1 and a CTS-V(both friend of mines), I gave up all hopes on this 306, even if I Supercharge it......So this is my new plan is to sell my engine and tranny with heads, cam carb and intake, and just keep my accersories,and buy a 408(351W), and slap some 225cc heads, then call to get a custom grind cam to what I want out of my car.


This is what Im thinking, I want aroung 450 RWHP and RWTQ. If I can get more thats great. I want something that is some what streetable, I want a high revving cam, something to rev up to 7k(just for bragging rights), and a 150 or 200 shot of N20, and slap on a Viper Spec t-56


What you guys think?

What do you guys think I can sell my longblock and tranny for?

 

[reddy351]

I'd say that no matter what you do, there will ALWAYS be a "faster", "quicker", "better" car out there. There is always going to be a guy with more money, skill and/or knowledge that will build a car that will beat yours. I'm not saying that you shouldn't "go BIG", just that you are chasing something that can never be "caught".

For instance, back in the early 90's, when an 11 second FoxStang was "fast" a couple of guys showed up driving a new diesel F250 dually with a new, open trailer and a Stang on back with no tags on it, to the local cruise hangout. (Used to be a Sam's Club, on the West Side. We had gotten run out of Pep Boys AND Kmart.) It was a Friday, just before the Ford Expo here in Columbus. The driver of the truck and his buddy were working the local "serious" street racers for a matchup. No one bit. When I left, one of the two guys had put a VERY large stack of cash (I'd guess about $10k) on the hood of the car, held down by a used, very expensive custom piston as a paperweight. Keep in mind, this car was very simple. Looked bone stock except for some Weld's, a roll cage and some other minor "mods". (I saw custom rear control arms, before they were "commonplace".)

It turns-out that it's VERY good thing that no-one bit. They were spotted at National Trails that same weekend, busting out VERY low 10's and a couple high 9 second ET's. It also turned-out that both guys were Ford engineers, using a LOT of Ford money to see "just what a Fox chassis could be made to do". So, they were very well paid to do what we all do at great expense to us.

That's what I mean, when I say "there will always be a faster car."

 

[Guero]

I'd say that no matter what you do, there will ALWAYS be a faster car out there.

True, but cars are gettting only quicker from factory. And I want something that will trap 118+ N/A now....Besides thats the whole point of modding is to beat the other guy. And have fun to.....

 

[5spd GT]

A 408 with some AFR 225cc heads, with a good matching intake, and a custom cam will take you several mph past your goal

 

[Guero]

A 408 with some AFR 225cc heads, with a good matching intake, and a custom cam will take you several mph past your goal

True I just didnt want people to question it it Im thinking like 124+

And I've been more than happy with my TFS heads, so I will be getting 225cc TFS Heads......I like being a loyal customer lol

 

[Pokageek]

I say why not. Definitely go 225's and go spider intake and you will pass your goal. Also, you will have to consider traction..depending on your gearing. I have 3.27s out back with mine and I can't hold on so I am doing battle boxes to keep the frame in one piece, z rated rubber, lca's, panhard bar, springs, upgraded shocks, and upgraded sway bar. .. now.. if I were going lower gearing like 3.55's, 3.73's etc ..I would have to go much bigger tires out back..most likely drag radials...More suspension stuff...etc...

I want it to be fun and not to spin all to hell so thats why I went 3.27's.

 

[Guero]

I say why not. Definitely go 225's and go spider intake and you will pass your goal. Also, you will have to consider traction..depending on your gearing. I have 3.27s out back with mine and I can't hold on so I am doing battle boxes to keep the frame in one piece, z rated rubber, lca's, panhard bar, springs, upgraded shocks, and upgraded sway bar. .. now.. if I were going lower gearing like 3.55's, 3.73's etc ..I would have to go much bigger tires out back..most likely drag radials...More suspension stuff...etc...

I want it to be fun and not to spin all to hell so thats why I went 3.27's.

Why not right!!! Im gonna build my suspension first with the money I sell the block and tranny....Then go all out on the engine. As far as the diff, Ill leave it...I just wont launch hard at the track....then depending on what I see at the track Ill change my gearing....

 

[95Vert]

let me start by saying that you're an idiot. Don't blame the motor cause you don't know how to put it together. Get in touch with the right people and you won't have any problems making a small motor keep up with the big ones.

RESEARCH!!!

 

[5spd GT]

95Vert - How many semi-streetable cars are trapping over 118+ mph with 306 cubes and no serious weight reduction and 1.4 60 ft. cars?

I do not think he is looking to build a drag car, because he is not racing drag cars.

 

[95Vert]

Not many, I'll give you that. 118 mph 'should' take a car to the low 11's. I've seen people hit 115+ with 302's, afr's, and nitrous, it just depends how the combo was built. Hell, I've read a stock gt40 headed 302 go 11.19 @117 and fully streetable.

What I'm getting at is that it takes more than just slapping some parts together and expecting it to be fast cause of the dough that was spent.

Why not invest in a custom cam?

I won't speak about the carb because I have NO experience with those, but I will ask if that is the best match for his combo?

What cc's are the heads?

What gear is he running?

 

[reddy351]

.

 

[95Vert]

.

jaja, I knew someone was going to comment on that. I've been on here for a while and that's how Guero and I get along, it's a beaner thing, you wouldn't understand.


EDIT: you got to edit you post before I got a chance to quote you. but read my reply, no hard feelings.

 

[reddy351]

jaja, I knew someone was going to comment on that. I've been on here for a while and that's how Guero and I get along, it's a beaner thing, you wouldn't understand.


EDIT: you got to edit you post before I got a chance to quote you. but read my reply, no hard feelings.

Cool. I'm no "Net Cop". I'm glad it was an "inside" joke.

PS--I'm glad I changed it in time!

Damn Beaners.

 

[Guero]

My problem now is a wanna trap in the 120+ N/A. A 306 in my car will never do that. At least not to my knowledge. I was also thinking about getting a custom cam for this engine but like I said I want 120+ traps N/A.....See what Im saying Nacho??? And like I said I want it to be some what streetable. I cant imagine doing that N/A in a 306

 

[95Vert]

i get what you mean, but you don't need crazy hp/tq, i've learned that it's all in the acceleration, plus RPM's are you friend, I was told and have seen.

Reddy, yeah we're all over the place. jaja

 

[5spd GT]

I've read a stock gt40 headed 302 go 11.19 @117 and fully streetable.

You know there is more to it than this, right

That particular guy did MANY tricks that he will not even say, and I looked up much of it way back when.

- Loose tolerances
- 0W/30 oil
- Modified clutch that he will not even say what he did, because it could "break."
- He did not shift with a clutch
- Alternater cut-off switch
- Doing a custom cam for HIMSELF and tried several different ones.
- His ideas of streetable are different than most
- Tried different lifter/pushrod combinations for most power/stud over pedestal
- Tried different clutches and modified it (took out the thrust bearing)
- Modified T5 tranny (2.95 first gear)
- Vacuum Pump (2 mph with air pump) and no PCV hook-ups
- 4.56 gears/Slicks
- 1.4 60 fts (which highlights lots of suspension work compared to average and a good tire)
- Shifted near 7,500 rpm
- Lots of track and tuning time
- Deleted accessories (3 mph with smog pump delete)
- Electric fan
- Removed some extra weight
- .227"/.252" duration at .050" and .563"/.547" (.352"/.342") - LSA 114* - 112.5 ICL
- New rings and bearings
- Holley lower intake with a Hurricane sheetmetal upper intake
- Locked out timing (38*)
- Valve job on the heads, milled, and some bowl reshaping with Ferrea valves
- Converted heads to stud-mounted
- 9.7" runner length
- 10.25 Air/Fuel Ratio
- Rev extender
- Trailered it on occasion
- 3160lb race weight
- Team Z upper and lower control arms and anti-roll bar
- Straight exhaust (not typical aftermarket H or X piping)
- Unknown compression

*Possibly used gas-ported pistons, windage trays.

And your typical underdrive and crank race pullies, electric fan, no thermostat, blah, blah, blah

These are just some of the things he has posted. It is not what 99% or more are going to do to make a point.

Some guys take it serious, and make it work like Mr. Allen did, and a nice job that he did too

You can go through the list and see many things that are not streetable to many or that many would not think to do.

Now is all that FULLY streetable?

There are many tricks one can do, like running thin oil, oil pump modifying, bearing clearances, and the list is endless...

 

[Pokageek]

I think Guero is saying he wants to "easily" do it..meaning without drag racing suspension..running on alcohol..or 4.56 gears, revving it to 7500RPM and letting the clutch toast to get a perfect launch..rebuilding thre engine after each run, loland ..drinking 9 red bulls and 2 cartons of "POP ROCKS" b4 the launch to get psyched..in the process.

The guy in the caddie don't need all that and he doesnt want to either - just my o.

edit: oh and taking all the airbags off and both bumpers and tail lights AND headlights AND windows AND seats AND stereo AND blinker fluid!!

edit x 2 : Any of you notice to get those sti's to go those times they have to dump the clutch @ 6000 + rpm? 5-60? they are dead. Seriously. Me no likee!

 

[Black95GTS]

You know there is more to it than this, right

That particular guy did MANY tricks that he will not even say, and I looked up much of it way back when.

- Loose tolerances
- Modified clutch that he will not even say what he did, because it could "break."
- He did not shift with a clutch
- Alternater cut-off switch
- Extender
- Doing a custom cam for HIMSELF.
- His ideas of streetable are different than most
- Tried different lifter/pushrod combinations for most power/stud over pedestal
- Tried different clutches
- Vacuum Pump (2 mph with air pump)
- 4.56 gears/Slicks
- 1.4 60 fts (which highlights lots of suspension work compared to average and a good tire)
- Shifted near 7,500 rpm
- Lots of track and tuning time
- Deleted accessories (3 mph with smog pump delete)
- Removed some extra weight
- .25X exhaust duration at .050"
- New rings and bearings
- Holley lower intake with a Hurricane upper intake
- Locked out timing
- Valve job on the heads and some bowl reshaping
- 10.25 Air/Fuel Ratio

And your typical race pullies, electric fan, no thermostat, blah, blah, blah

These are just some of the things he has posted. It is not what 99% or more are going to do to make a point.

Some guys take it serious, and make it work

You can go through the list and see many things that are not streetable to many.

Now is all that FULLY streetable?

Agreed.... I'd call that fully trailer-able.

Adam

 

[95Vert]

Well Guero did say this car would not be a daily driver but not a trailer queen either.

Regarding that list you posted up, it's more about knowledge and RESEARCH than anything else, hence why I preach research. If Guero had the time and knowledge and money, what would stop him, or anyone of doing the same.

Jay has openly stated that his WIFE would drive the car daily to pick up his kids from school AND he would drive a couple of hours to the track, getting 19mph. It's even on his website and there's a thread about it where he currently resides.

Doesn't anyone running 120+ mph NEED a good suspension setup?

Turning that high of rpm's shouldn't be much of a concern if you have the proper valvetrain, don't you think? Of course the block has to hold up but a 6400rpm shift point will be fine. His block still held up after being shifted at 8k for over 15.5k miles.

I really don't see that car needing to be trailered, besides 'maybe' the gear ratio? Even then, 19mpg is not too shabby. What's so trailable about it?

Now don't take this the wrong way and think I'm not giving this guy the credit he deserves, ANYONE can recognize this was a hell of an accomplishment. Many aren't able to do it, including myself, but the point is that it can and has been done. Hell, I'm building my combo similar to his, with his help and see how far I can get.

 

[5spd GT]

Well Guero did say this car would not be a daily driver but not a trailer queen either.

Regarding that list you posted up, it's more about knowledge and RESEARCH than anything else, hence why I preach research. If Guero had the time and knowledge and money, what would stop him, or anyone of doing the same.

Jay has openly stated that his WIFE would drive the car daily to pick up his kids from school AND he would drive a couple of hours to the track, getting 19mph. It's even on his website and there's a thread about it where he currently resides.

Doesn't anyone running 120+ mph NEED a good suspension setup?

I really don't see that car being trailable. What's so trailable about it? ANYONE could do more than half of what's on that list with KNOWLEDGE and even just practice. Besides the pushrod and clutch modification, that combo isn't a miracle, the guy just know his 'sheet'.

If you actually read much of what he says, there are lots of exxagerations about things.

The best example is how he states that it is fully streetable. That is all opinion and just take some of that above as examples. How many want an alternator cut-off switch? How many want to cruise with 4.56 gears? I doubt he hit the interstate. I also doubt how little his wife drove the car, and I do not believe she drove it in his race trim.

Running such loose tolerances are not good for long engine life. Running the vacuum pump is usually done with low-tension oil rings. He broke his share of parts getting those runs. Some valvetrain parts being one of them. He tried a few clutches during the runs.

As I posted it is all what he has publicly stated, not what all was done.

He post often how it is a stock shortblock, stock gt-40 heads, and he says full accessories as well.

None of that is true, so read on to see

The shortblock is modified with new rings, bearings, tolerances not ideal for long engine life. The gt-40 heads had valve spring, retainer, valve job, and bowl work.

He deleted his smog pump, and had an alternator cut-off switch. I am sure he ran a shortbelt at the track as well.

Like I said, I am not downing his project. It ran great, no doubt, but do not think it was just some "junk" shortblock with gt-40 heads.

Because you are going to get people expecting that they can install some GT-40 heads on a 302 and run 117+ mph.

It comes down to race weight, weight transfer, tons of tuning, clutch/transmission work, and parts selection, accessory deletes, gearing, traction, slicks, etc, etc.

He even said he used every trick he knew to use.

Great running car though