am i LEAN with this setup.....................!!!!????

[Give Me TP]

Sugesting an aftermarket MAF is BAD advice!!! The stock MAF is more than fine for his setup. You don't need to upgrade the MAF until you max the stocker out, somewhere around 350 rwhp, and even then you are better off going with a OEM unit like a LMAF. First aftermarket Maf's are harder to tune, and second, he doesn't have access to a dyno shop anyway.

To answer the original question, you should not be running lean with the listed mods, unless you have introduced a vaccuum leak somewhere. Otherwise you are fine.

Most of the people on this board to not have a good understanding of how MAF based fuel injection works.

Do you think he's not running somewhat lean with the mods listed, maybe around 14-14.5? That would be my educated guess.

 

[Newbie143]

Sugesting an aftermarket MAF is BAD advice!!! The stock MAF is more than fine for his setup. You don't need to upgrade the MAF until you max the stocker out, somewhere around 350 rwhp, and even then you are better off going with a OEM unit like a LMAF. First aftermarket Maf's are harder to tune, and second, he doesn't have access to a dyno shop anyway.

To answer the original question, you should not be running lean with the listed mods, unless you have introduced a vaccuum leak somewhere. Otherwise you are fine.

Most of the people on this board to not have a good understanding of how MAF based fuel injection works.

i kinda knew the MAF advice didnt seem right. As everyone knows if there is MORE air coming in the engine (CAI, TB and plenum) the MAF will read this and give an order to the fuel injection to let more fuel in , right
I mean we all know that , so why the hell would people run lean with this???

 

[96WhiteNight]

He shouldn't be running lean the computer should adjust for the mods

 

[jstreet0204]

i kinda knew the MAF advice didnt seem right. As everyone knows if there is MORE air coming in the engine (CAI, TB and plenum) the MAF will read this and give an order to the fuel injection to let more fuel in , right
I mean we all know that , so why the hell would people run lean with this???

Exactly!

 

[jstreet0204]

Do you think he's not running somewhat lean with the mods listed, maybe around 14-14.5? That would be my educated guess.

What is your educated guess based on? Which component do you think bypasses or throws off the MAF so that the eec know longer knows the amount of air entering the engine? I'm not try to be an ass, just trying to get you guys to think about this stuff. Even if the MAF calibration was off a little, you still have an adaptive stategy in the eec that makes corrections based on prior o2 readings.

 

[BCB00GT]

Depending on the type of CAI (plumbing before the MAF), he could run lean or rich - most likely lean.

Getting an aftermarket MAF is a bad idea as mentioned earlier.

I would ditch the CAI and get the plenum and TB, as the CAI doesn't add much anyway considering the cost and "unknown" a/f factor.

 

[jstreet0204]

Depending on the type of CAI (plumbing before the MAF), he could run lean or rich - most likely lean.

Getting an aftermarket MAF is a bad idea as mentioned earlier.

I would ditch the CAI and get the plenum and TB, as the CAI doesn't add much anyway considering the cost and "unknown" a/f factor.

This is true if it is the type with the elbow in front of the MAF, which can cause some turbulence(sp) throwing off the MAF reading.

 

[csledd]

I said he's running lean because my car was running 20% lean when I had it dynoed and i believed a lot of that was due to the tb and plenum, I know everyone says these cars can compensate for a lot of the mods, but I don't agree fully. If not why would people gain 30rwhp and 40 rwtq in certain places in the power band when the a/f is adjusted

 

[jstreet0204]

I said he's running lean because my car was running 20% lean when I had it dynoed and i believed a lot of that was due to the tb and plenum, I know everyone says these cars can compensate for a lot of the mods, but I don't agree fully. If not why would people gain 30rwhp and 40 rwtq in certain places in the power band when the a/f is adjusted

I saw your dyno sheet, and the 20% lean would not have been attributed to the tb/plenum there is no way of knowing what was causing it without some datalogged values. You may very well have had another problem that was more or less covered up by simply adding fuel through the tune.

Think of it this way. I like many others run a supercharger with the stock MAF. I have increased the air flow by roughly 60%, and the stock MAF curve is still very close. So there is no reason the slight increase in air flow from bolt on parts would throw it off. If the MAF curve is off then it is most likely due to a leak, bad sensor, or possibly a change in the orientation of the MAF.

 

[Newbie143]

i already have the Mac CAI... so should i ditch that!?? to get the TB+ plenum.
or wont that be really nessesary!?

 

[Give Me TP]

What is your educated guess based on? Which component do you think bypasses or throws off the MAF so that the eec know longer knows the amount of air entering the engine? I'm not try to be an ass, just trying to get you guys to think about this stuff. Even if the MAF calibration was off a little, you still have an adaptive stategy in the eec that makes corrections based on prior o2 readings.

My guess was based on dyno results I experienced. Using the stock tune with an aftermarket catback, midpipe, and CAI my A/F ran high 14s to 15, which the eec never corrected. Granted I have knock sensors that may have overriden the need for the eec to correct for a lean condition.

 

[jstreet0204]

My guess was based on dyno results I experienced. Using the stock tune with an aftermarket catback, midpipe, and CAI my A/F ran high 14s to 15, which the eec never corrected. Granted I have knock sensors that may have overriden the need for the eec to correct for a lean condition.

Knock sensors wouldn't change any correction factors, adaptive learning is based on o2 readings durin closed loop operation. Again If you ran that lean, something isn't working like it should. You either have unmetered air getting in somewhere, or there is a problem with the MAF.


Here are some good articles that explain how it all works.
http://www.mustangworks.com/articles/electronics/eecAdaptive.html

http://www.mustangworks.com/articles/electronics/InductionBlues.html

 

[Give Me TP]

A custom tune corrected the situation. It's run a virtually flat 13 A/F over the past three months. Unmetered air would likely be revealed at idle, which has remained unchanged over the past year and a half.

Good links by the way

 

[jstreet0204]

A custom tune corrected the situation. It's run a virtually flat 13 A/F over the past three months. Unmetered air would likely be revealed at idle, which has remained unchanged over the past year and a half.

Good links by the way

It is possible to tune around a problem. Most tuners will just use the wot fuel multiplier to add or take away fuel based on rpm. But the correct way to do it is to make sure the MAF transfer corresponds with the commanded fuel tables during both open and closed loop. This can take hours and hours to do. That doesn't mean it will cause you any problems later or anything. The best way to tell is to do some datalogging and look at the lambse and kamrf numbers during closed loop. This will tell how much compensation is being made by the addaptive strategy. If it a lot then your problem is still there, but being adjusted for.

 

[Give Me TP]

Sounds a little familiar, since when I was in the process of custom MAF voltage was datalogged. What has been your experience with custom tuners by the way? For instance have you found SCT or Diablo software to perform in similar fashion or is one notably better for fine tuning.

 

[BooWFO]

man this is turning into a very informative thread. Ok here's another one how can the TB/Plenum lean you out after all the air has to come through the MAF before it ever gets to the TB? Also why does it seem the eec IV was so much more forgiving to mods? I know a certain fox with a cam, p&p heads, intakes, full exhaust, roller rockers (1.6 intake 1.7 exhaust) and too much more and it doesn't run lean heck it's a little rich and the fuel pressure has never been messed with either? Is the eec in the mods just less forgiving or is it closer to perfection tune wise from the factory? Also why does it always seem people with CAI are running lean?

 

[jstreet0204]

Sounds a little familiar, since when I was in the process of custom MAF voltage was datalogged. What has been your experience with custom tuners by the way? For instance have you found SCT or Diablo software to perform in similar fashion or is one notably better for fine tuning.

I don't have direct experience with either, but all the tuning packages do basically the same thing. The parameters are in the EEC not the software. The software just allow access to them. From everything I've seen, where SCT excels is the easy to use interface.

 

[Torinalth]

here is a question... a mustang dyno is more or less holding your car in place while giving the situation of it actually being in motion based on drag and weight.

so, couldnt he go the route of getting his own wideband sensor and dial it in himself with the tuner? maybe i'm thinking too simply here... but get the car rolling in third, at around 2k rpm watch the wideband, and put the hammer down. when at 6k, shut down, tune, check the progress.

call it the poor mans dyno, but i dont see an issue with going this route.... other then the cost of the wideband.

Torinalth

 

[jstreet0204]

here is a question... a mustang dyno is more or less holding your car in place while giving the situation of it actually being in motion based on drag and weight.

so, couldnt he go the route of getting his own wideband sensor and dial it in himself with the tuner? maybe i'm thinking too simply here... but get the car rolling in third, at around 2k rpm watch the wideband, and put the hammer down. when at 6k, shut down, tune, check the progress.

call it the poor mans dyno, but i dont see an issue with going this route.... other then the cost of the wideband.

Torinalth

It is called road tuning and in many ways is better than dyno tuning, but it takes time and the equiptment to do it. Many people do it though, my self included.

 

[Give Me TP]

You can. You need a wideband that datalogs A/F vs. rpm and a place where you can run at WOT in fourth (for 5 spds). However, as jstreet0204 posted the flash tuner unit itself will only allow you to add or take away fuel, and in the case of a Predator that is across two fairly broad ranges of rpm (2-4K and 4-7K) and only at WOT.