Anyway to get into the 12's N/A or really close??
- Thread starter streetstang03
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Slider
Founding Member
12's are possible from a bolt on GT, but it is not as easy as many think.
micool has the right thinking. All the power in the world is useless unless you can get it to the ground properly.
Cars that run 12's with bolt-ons for power mods, have drag race suspensions. I get really tired of people using Bill as an example. Yes, Bill does not have a large amount of power mods, but his car is completely optimized for drag racing. As he said he in another post he has not left any stone unturned when it comes to making his car as fast as possible. What that means is that he has a 100% drag race suspension perfectly tuned, and has removed all unnecessary weight. His car only weighs like 3000-3100 lbs verses a stock cars weight of 3500 lbs.
If you want 12's n/a you will need more then 17" drag radials. You can do it on BFG 15" drag radials, but it will be a lot of work. The best ways is with slicks, preferable with skinnies up front. This will run you around $1100.
The problem is that slicks or any drag radial for that fact are going to grenade your rear end. So, if you are going to get gears you really need to up grade your axles and differential. I suggest any brand 31 spline axles and an Eaton posi. The Eaton makes a good street/strip differential. Pay the money now for this stuff. You are going to need it if you are serious at al about going 12's. This will run you around $1200 with labor.
I know this for a fact. I run 15 BFG drag radials and I had to replace the clutch packs in my differential once, after that I actually bent an axle. I am only running 13.3-13.4.
You should really do something with the suspension also. Actually a completely stock suspension is pretty good for the track. It squats more in the rear then it should for good launching, but it is soft enough to give you good weight transfer. If you want a lowered look s lot of guys like to use 4 cylinder springs up front and fox body springs in the rear. This will give you good weight transfer without the rear end squatting. You should really think about upgrading at least the lower control arms though. They flex way too much for good launching. They would run you about $250. Just remember that for every 0.1 seconds you can knock off your 60' time you will lose about 0.2 seconds off your 1/4 mile time.
Just the slicks, gears, and suspension will probably get you mid 13's. To go into the 12's you will then need some power. For starters you will probably need a full aftermarket exhaust: long tubes, off-road X/H, and cat-back. This is usually the best and easiest place to pick up a good amount of power. The long tubes may not be needed, but the will make it a lot easier. They are actually going to be my next mod because I want the 12's also
A set of under drive pulleys are a cheap way to add a few extra ponies.
To finish off the power increases you can do one of two things. Either get a timing adjuster to up the timing, or get a custom chip. The t/a is cheaper, but you will get better results from a custom dyno tune.
All that being said losing as much weight as possible from the car will make a huge difference. For every 100 lbs you shed off the car it is like adding 10hp. Bill's car is a good 400lbs lighter then a stock GT, and that alone probably gains him a good 4 mph in the quarter mile. Another rule of thumb is that every 1 mph increase in your trap speed is an increase of about 10 hp, or in this case 100lb weight reduction. For weight reduction there are a lot of little things you can do that can help such as remove the front sway bar, rear seat delete, after market seats, remove spare tire, aftermarket k-member, and a light weight battery.
I am not an expert, but my observations and most importantly my experience. Hope it helps
micool has the right thinking. All the power in the world is useless unless you can get it to the ground properly.
Cars that run 12's with bolt-ons for power mods, have drag race suspensions. I get really tired of people using Bill as an example. Yes, Bill does not have a large amount of power mods, but his car is completely optimized for drag racing. As he said he in another post he has not left any stone unturned when it comes to making his car as fast as possible. What that means is that he has a 100% drag race suspension perfectly tuned, and has removed all unnecessary weight. His car only weighs like 3000-3100 lbs verses a stock cars weight of 3500 lbs.
If you want 12's n/a you will need more then 17" drag radials. You can do it on BFG 15" drag radials, but it will be a lot of work. The best ways is with slicks, preferable with skinnies up front. This will run you around $1100.
The problem is that slicks or any drag radial for that fact are going to grenade your rear end. So, if you are going to get gears you really need to up grade your axles and differential. I suggest any brand 31 spline axles and an Eaton posi. The Eaton makes a good street/strip differential. Pay the money now for this stuff. You are going to need it if you are serious at al about going 12's. This will run you around $1200 with labor.
I know this for a fact. I run 15 BFG drag radials and I had to replace the clutch packs in my differential once, after that I actually bent an axle. I am only running 13.3-13.4.
You should really do something with the suspension also. Actually a completely stock suspension is pretty good for the track. It squats more in the rear then it should for good launching, but it is soft enough to give you good weight transfer. If you want a lowered look s lot of guys like to use 4 cylinder springs up front and fox body springs in the rear. This will give you good weight transfer without the rear end squatting. You should really think about upgrading at least the lower control arms though. They flex way too much for good launching. They would run you about $250. Just remember that for every 0.1 seconds you can knock off your 60' time you will lose about 0.2 seconds off your 1/4 mile time.
Just the slicks, gears, and suspension will probably get you mid 13's. To go into the 12's you will then need some power. For starters you will probably need a full aftermarket exhaust: long tubes, off-road X/H, and cat-back. This is usually the best and easiest place to pick up a good amount of power. The long tubes may not be needed, but the will make it a lot easier. They are actually going to be my next mod because I want the 12's also
A set of under drive pulleys are a cheap way to add a few extra ponies.
To finish off the power increases you can do one of two things. Either get a timing adjuster to up the timing, or get a custom chip. The t/a is cheaper, but you will get better results from a custom dyno tune.
All that being said losing as much weight as possible from the car will make a huge difference. For every 100 lbs you shed off the car it is like adding 10hp. Bill's car is a good 400lbs lighter then a stock GT, and that alone probably gains him a good 4 mph in the quarter mile. Another rule of thumb is that every 1 mph increase in your trap speed is an increase of about 10 hp, or in this case 100lb weight reduction. For weight reduction there are a lot of little things you can do that can help such as remove the front sway bar, rear seat delete, after market seats, remove spare tire, aftermarket k-member, and a light weight battery.
I am not an expert, but my observations and most importantly my experience. Hope it helps
Mustang92
SN's #1 1%er
Just to clarify a few things at the time when I first broke 12s in my car I was making 246RWHP (O/R H, pulleys, TA) and my car was about 100lbs lighter than stock. My car currently is 3100lbs with driver so yes it is light now but I'm also running high 11's/low 12's.
There have been a few that have hit 12s with near stock suspension on drag radials and even on street tires (Tony Whetstone). These cars just have basic bolt ons...the key here is driver.
Bill
There have been a few that have hit 12s with near stock suspension on drag radials and even on street tires (Tony Whetstone). These cars just have basic bolt ons...the key here is driver.
Bill
<==stock suspension(minus sway bar), 4 basic performance bolt ons, 3600lb race weight lots of practice
Slider
Founding Member
Yeah, but the important thing here is A FEW. Is it possible to make it into the 12's without 15" drag radials or slicks and stock susupension, sure, but is it very likely NO.Mustang92 said:
I am sure my car could hit the 12's right now if every thing was just right. I hit 13.277 a year ago, and I have done a lot to my car since. I currently drive the he!! out of it and the best I could muster the last time out was a 13.4 with a 1.80 60'. The reason that I have not beat my 13.27 yet is because that was just one of those cold perfect days. If I would get one of those days again and I am sure I could hit 12's especially considering that my new 60' best is 1.77's. Would that make my car a 12's second car, well I guess technically, but could I back it up any time any place, No. When you ask the question of how to get a 12's second car you really need ask yourself do you just want a low 13 car that gets lucky into the 12's, or do you want a consistant 12 second car. Because those two things are very different.
Definetly the driver is a huge part of getting the best times out of your car. However, not all cars are created equal. For some guys they are lucky and their cars always seem to preform beter on the track and on the dyno no matter what.
Bill's dyno of 246 rwhp equates roughly to 290 bhp. Now that is a nice increase of about 30 hp over the stock rating. I think Bill is lucky in the sense that 30 hp from O/R H, pulleys, and TA is probably above average. The good news is that this amount of hp is easily attainable for most with another mod or two. For my setup I have an average trap speed of about 101.2 mph. I am not sure what my car weighs currently, but it should be around 3400 lbs with me in it. Using one of the dyno calcs from the Corral it is estimated that I have about 280 hp. So, as you can see I was not as lucky as Bill to get that much power with just my prochamber, pulleys, and mufflers. Maybe a t/a would get me there, but I know that the mufflers gave me a good bump in power becasue I gained a solid 0.7 to 1.0 mph in the quater with them. This comparision was just for reference.
Saying that this one guy or that one guy has made it into the 12's with very few mods is very misleading. Given a 75 degree day, average track conditions, and if my car was perfectly driven it still would not hit the 12's.
I just think it is safe to say that the guys with the very few mods in the 12's are both great drivers and a little lucky to have abnormally fast cars. So to just say John Doe did it is nice to know it can be done, but it is the exception not the norm.
JMHO
well, thing is that I want to be able to run it on the track w/ the deep dish rims. I want to run it the same way at the track as I do the street (minus spare tire etc....) So this seems to be what I am picking up from the various comments from everyone (Thanks again everyone!!):
Basically, it is very unlikley to run the deep dish rims at the track and get into the 12's N/A. I am going to have to run nitrous most likely. So I guess i might just get the NX 35-150 hp kit with the GenX2 upgrade and window switch. Then the deep dish with maybe just some LCAs, subframe connectors, and UCAs, possibly the Steeda Springs as well (mostly for looks). Then add, Steeda T/A, 4.10s, tranny cooler, and torque converter and a good tune. Plus a some new plugs. Is this a good set-up?
Thanks to everyone who has been helping out!! It is appreciated very much!!
Basically, it is very unlikley to run the deep dish rims at the track and get into the 12's N/A. I am going to have to run nitrous most likely. So I guess i might just get the NX 35-150 hp kit with the GenX2 upgrade and window switch. Then the deep dish with maybe just some LCAs, subframe connectors, and UCAs, possibly the Steeda Springs as well (mostly for looks). Then add, Steeda T/A, 4.10s, tranny cooler, and torque converter and a good tune. Plus a some new plugs. Is this a good set-up?
Thanks to everyone who has been helping out!! It is appreciated very much!!
with cams, full exhaust, gears and a tune....i dont see any reason your car shouldnt do it on the bullitts
Suspension is a big part of it. If you don't mind using drag-specific suspension on the street, go for it. ET reduction right there that lots of people don't even think about. I wouldn't at all say it's impossible to run a 12.99 on 17" drag radials, it will just take a little more power and weight reduction than what you would need on slicks.
Seeing how there is a dedicated crew of 12 second N/A guys (now turning into the 11 second crew
) that work their magic with bolt-ons and suspension, I wouldn't give up hope going all-motor.
BTW - I know what you're talking about for an all around performance car, I'm looking for the same thing. A daily driver, go to the drag strip and put down some decent numbers, then pull off of the strip and line up on the auto-x track without touching a thing and do the same. You probably won't hang with the purpose-built guys, but you can have fun doing a little bit of everything.
Oh yeah, 315/35-17 BFG drag radials would be something to look into with those wheels. I love mine.
Seeing how there is a dedicated crew of 12 second N/A guys (now turning into the 11 second crew
) that work their magic with bolt-ons and suspension, I wouldn't give up hope going all-motor. BTW - I know what you're talking about for an all around performance car, I'm looking for the same thing. A daily driver, go to the drag strip and put down some decent numbers, then pull off of the strip and line up on the auto-x track without touching a thing and do the same. You probably won't hang with the purpose-built guys, but you can have fun doing a little bit of everything.
Oh yeah, 315/35-17 BFG drag radials would be something to look into with those wheels. I love mine.
Slider
Founding Member
streetstang03 said:well, thing is that I want to be able to run it on the track w/ the deep dish rims. I want to run it the same way at the track as I do the street (minus spare tire etc....) So this seems to be what I am picking up from the various comments from everyone (Thanks again everyone!!):
Basically, it is very unlikley to run the deep dish rims at the track and get into the 12's N/A. I am going to have to run nitrous most likely. So I guess i might just get the NX 35-150 hp kit with the GenX2 upgrade and window switch. Then the deep dish with maybe just some LCAs, subframe connectors, and UCAs, possibly the Steeda Springs as well (mostly for looks). Then add, Steeda T/A, 4.10s, tranny cooler, and torque converter and a good tune. Plus a some new plugs. Is this a good set-up?
Thanks to everyone who has been helping out!! It is appreciated very much!!
That is really not a bad plan at all. Guys trying to get into the 12's n/a are the guys that don't mind doing a lot of work to get there. It is a lot of hard work to get into the 12's doing the following: n/a, bolt ons, 17" drag radials, a small budget. Can obvisously be done, but it is definetly the hard way.
If you want a good street car that can run 12's with out putting in long hours of work and practice then nitrous is a great way to do it. I would suggest something like:
- Steeda springs (have to look good)
- 17" drag radials (BFG would hook better, but are not good for every day driving)
- Performance H/X pipe (the stock one really robs a lot of power)
- Subframes (they are very usefull for good launches, but not necessary)
- Lower ctrl arms (helps to keep the rear planted)
- Torque converter (this can really make a nice difference)
- 50-75 hp shot of Nitrous
- A really good custum tune with a flip chip (multi-tune: 1 for n/a and one for nitrous) (will not need a t/a with this)
You will be in the 12's all day, and the car will still be a lot of fun n/a. Gears are great, but really not that need especially if you are on the juice. I ran 13.277 on stock 3.27's. Nitrous makes a lot of low end torque and you will probably have traction problems.
The little extras like pulleys, mufflers, and a tranny cooler will just be icing on the cake.
Slider said:That is really not a bad plan at all. Guys trying to get into the 12's n/a are the guys that don't mind doing a lot of work to get there. It is a lot of hard work to get into the 12's doing the following: n/a, bolt ons, 17" drag radials, a small budget. Can obvisously be done, but it is definetly the hard way.
If you want a good street car that can run 12's with out putting in long hours of work and practice then nitrous is a great way to do it. I would suggest something like:
- Steeda springs (have to look good)
- 17" drag radials (BFG would hook better, but are not good for every day driving)
- Performance H/X pipe (the stock one really robs a lot of power)
- Subframes (they are very usefull for good launches, but not necessary)
- Lower ctrl arms (helps to keep the rear planted)
- Torque converter (this can really make a nice difference)
- 50-75 hp shot of Nitrous
- A really good custum tune with a flip chip (multi-tune: 1 for n/a and one for nitrous) (will not need a t/a with this)
You will be in the 12's all day, and the car will still be a lot of fun n/a. Gears are great, but really not that need especially if you are on the juice. I ran 13.277 on stock 3.27's. Nitrous makes a lot of low end torque and you will probably have traction problems.
The little extras like pulleys, mufflers, and a tranny cooler will just be icing on the cake.
Thats awesome. That all pretty much confirms what I made for the 3rd plan of mods I came up with. Its even better to know I wont need the T/A and I already have o/r xpipe and exhaust taken care of. Would u suggest going to 3.73 gears or 3.55s just so its better on the street, in case some punk wants to race, then I dont need to use the nitrous.? Oh, and Do you think I should get upper control arms as well, or would they not be needed?
I would still get away from the stock gears. If you definately are going to be running nitrous, then you might be better off with a 3.73 so you don't have to worry about shifting into 5th at the track. Upper control arms are definately a plus.
I would stick with a timing adjuster instead of a chip. Why do people recommend getting a tune for nitrous? What is there to tune besides pulling a degree or two of timing if you want to play it safe? You control the fuel yourself based on the jet settings in the nitrous system (referring to a wet kit).
I would stick with a timing adjuster instead of a chip. Why do people recommend getting a tune for nitrous? What is there to tune besides pulling a degree or two of timing if you want to play it safe? You control the fuel yourself based on the jet settings in the nitrous system (referring to a wet kit).
Slider
Founding Member
streetstang03 said:
Well, I am not sure about the gears. I have 4.10's and they rock, but I can see them definetly being to much on 17" drag radials and nitrous. If you are going to get gears then I would have to suggest the 3.73's with nitrous. 3.55's are not even worth the money to change them. You might want to wait on gears because too much punishment with nitrous and drag radials will eventually take its toll on the rear end (diff/axles)., and will most likely need to be upgraded some day. I know I like my gears and they make teh car more fun to drive, but they really did not make the car that much faster. You can go a long ways on 3.27's.
Upper control arms are a great idea, but not "needed." You can pick them up pretty cheap, but they are kind of a pain to install due to the bushing that is in the differential. You have to get it out, a nd it does not come out with out a lot of work.
I am glad I could help some. Make sure that you take my suggestion as simple that, suggestions. I have been racing my car since I bought in new. I also started out with a multi-purpose car, and I have learned a lot along the way. I am just sharing all the stuff I haved learned though expereince and reading about others.
Good luck
Thanks a lot everyone!! I appreciate it greatly!!
Slider: So, even though my car is an auto you dont think I need to worry about gears? Thanks for your help!!
Slider: So, even though my car is an auto you dont think I need to worry about gears? Thanks for your help!!
Slider
Founding Member
streetstang03 said:
You really need to post that question to the nitrous guys.
You should be able to run them with nitrous, but you just might have to watch when you use the nitrous. You would probably not want to lauch on nitrous with 3.73's, but it should be fine once you get down the track a little ways.
Mustang92
SN's #1 1%er
Slider said:
I guess that just depends on your particular outlook on things. When someone asks me if 12s are possible I say they are but it will take some work. To tell someone that they can't do it because only a great driver could do it is basically taking shot at them. I've seen people who proclaim to be great drivers do horribly at the track and others with no experience powershift down the track like the trans is made of butter. It's not common to run 12s in that config but it is possible to do it regularly with practice.
Technically yes you have a 12 second car. Can you back it up? Sure pull out a time slip. There is a guy locally that went out to the track once and went 9.90 @ 138 and carries around his 9 second slip everywhere. You can't take away the fact that his car did this even though he doesn't hit the track weekly or even monthly. A timeslip is just bench mark that you set by achieving something. I don't consider myself to have an 11 second car but when people ask me about my car they don't ask what does your car run on average, they ask what is the best I've run. Most people know that you rarely run your best every time out.
I'd say yes, since my TA gave me a solid 9.2RWHP across the board.
Misleading only if you tell people that 12s are guarenteed to happen with X amount of HP and X amount of weight. The top 41 spots on the ET list are 12.99 or faster and that list continues to grow. Letting people know that something is possible and what it takes to get there at least gives them the knowledge that it can be done. For the average guy I would rather see them add cams instead of going more drag oriented simply to have a better all around car. But there are plenty of people out there like me that will sacrifice some driveability or comfort in order to go faster at the strip. Either way knowing that it can be done and what it took can be invalueable in making a decision on what direction to take with their car. Knowing what I know now there are a few things that I would have done differently but being one of those up front doing the trail and error I never had that luxury.
Great drivers yes, lucky or abnormally fast cars I don't really see it. My car has never made that great of power. When I hit 246RWHP (stock was 225RWHP) there were guys hitting 253RWHP with the same work. When I hit 253-257RWHP the same people were hitting 260-268RWHP with the same mods. Even now with cams AW has 300RWHP with the same mods as me. Out of that top 41 list about half are drag cars the rest are normal street cars with bolt ons making 250-270RWHP and running on slicks. The couple that have done it on street tires or DRs are great drivers, perfect example is Tony who has gone 12s on radials making 260RWHP in 80 degree weather.
Bill
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