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Blue Smoke

  • Thread starter Thread starter ruffy
  • Start date Start date Sep 9, 2007
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ruffy

Member
Apr 10, 2003
314
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Skopje, Macedonia
Sep 9, 2007
#1
  • Sep 9, 2007
  • #1
Every now and then I get a puff of blue smoke when I start the car. It's not much, just a puff, and it happens when the car has sit for some time. It's a '05 GT with 22000 mostly highway miles. Someone told me I may have messed up the valves with the SLP's since I lost the backpressure when I installed them.
 

Jenns01TA

Active Member
Mar 31, 2005
37
0
36
Sep 9, 2007
#2
  • Sep 9, 2007
  • #2
Is there a certain degree of inefficiency with low back pressure? Yes. Are your valves toast at this point, not necessarily so, but you are well on your way to serious issues if you don't compensate for the loss of backpressure in other areas of the engine. The blue smoke is a sign or wearing/worn valve guide seals.

Here is a great tech article from Flowmaster on engine building and creating a homeostatic neutrality between increases and decreases in backpressure. I would recommend you read it and consider the ramifications of the loss of backpressure to the life of your engine.

http://www.flowmastermufflers.com/backpressure.html


Good luck.
 
K

kkdoughboy

New Member
Jul 20, 2007
212
0
0
Pennsylvania
Sep 9, 2007
#3
  • Sep 9, 2007
  • #3
So your saying that by adding exhaust components on these 3V Mustangs you are damaging the engine?
 

mhanksii

Member
Jan 3, 2006
336
0
16
Maryland
Sep 9, 2007
#4
  • Sep 9, 2007
  • #4
Jenns01TA said:
Is there a certain degree of inefficiency with low back pressure? Yes. Are your valves toast at this point, not necessarily so, but you are well on your way to serious issues if you don't compensate for the loss of backpressure in other areas of the engine. The blue smoke is a sign or wearing/worn valve guide seals.

Here is a great tech article from Flowmaster on engine building and creating a homeostatic neutrality between increases and decreases in backpressure. I would recommend you read it and consider the ramifications of the loss of backpressure to the life of your engine.

http://www.flowmastermufflers.com/backpressure.html


Good luck.
Click to expand...

What about the ever popular pypes mid muffler system? Will the straight through design like that deliver the same results?
 
T

TGJ

New Member
Mar 30, 2005
1,049
4
0
Sep 9, 2007
#5
  • Sep 9, 2007
  • #5
I had this issue with my car...

What it was is a little oil getting trapped on top of the CMCV plates. When the car starts, this oil falls in to the combustion chamber and voila, you see the blue smoke.

CMCV Deletes will fix the problem...
 

CRoberts91

Member
Jul 10, 2007
148
1
18
Northport, AL
Sep 9, 2007
#6
  • Sep 9, 2007
  • #6
wait, i have the loudmouths too. you're saying it's not them though.
 
T

TGJ

New Member
Mar 30, 2005
1,049
4
0
Sep 10, 2007
#7
  • Sep 10, 2007
  • #7
I have SLP Loud Mouths, I had this issue of the blue smoke showing up occasionally on start up. Since the CMCV delete install on my car, no more blue smoke...
 
T

TGJ

New Member
Mar 30, 2005
1,049
4
0
Sep 10, 2007
#8
  • Sep 10, 2007
  • #8
If CMCV delete plates are not something you want to add, you can also fix this by adding an oil separator to the PCV system. Don't ask me how, as I went with the CMCV delete plates.

One other thing...

This issue is not related to your exhaust system, none of the exhaust systems available will cause this...
 
C

csl500

New Member
Mar 4, 2007
11
0
0
Sep 10, 2007
#9
  • Sep 10, 2007
  • #9
I have an '05 with SLP Loudmouths as well. I've put on a little more than 40k, and never have seen any blue smoke. The only other mods I've installed include a steeda CAI, steeda UDP and steeda ulrtalite wheels. A saleen or whipple supercharger will be coming in the next month or two
 

Jenns01TA

Active Member
Mar 31, 2005
37
0
36
Sep 13, 2007
#10
  • Sep 13, 2007
  • #10
A LONG TECHNICAL DISSERTATION FROM JENN...

Sorry, gentlemen, but unless an engine builder with a physics background were to walk in here and tell me I am wrong, I am going to have a hard time not standing up on this one. I am not a ASE mechanic, never pretended to be, but one thing I do know is theoretical and mechanical engineering and looking at the "big picture".

A comment was made that NO exhaust system manufactured or available will/can cause premature wear to the valve seals. I strongly disagree in the truest sense of engineering and physics. Sorry. I respect each member here, but you gentlemen need to fundamentally realize that for every action there is a equal reaction.

We live in a world of natural laws and simply believing something is so, does not make it truth. With this said the core issue is aftermarket exhausts have EVERYTHING to do with physics and engineering. In time, ALL uncompensated modifications WILL impact engine performance and longevity.

When we buy that awesome aftermarket exhaust we are looking to: make appearance and sound changes as well as maximize exhaust flow out of the engine.

The inflow of an air/fuel mixture is a separate issue, but it is directly influenced by exhaust flow, particularly during valve overlap (when both valves are open for "X" degrees of crankshaft rotation). Another topic for another issue.

Perhaps the most important aspect of exhaust flow relative to aftermarket products is the issue of flow volume vs. flow velocity and the savaging that occurs during the exhaust stroke.

Ford spends thousands of hours designing a stock engine to maximize each one of these strokes. Even if their idea of maximization is not OUR idea, they have designed and integrated, fully enclosed and self-actuating environment.

A well designed (or modified) engine needs the highest flow velocity possible for quick throttle response and torque throughout the low-to-mid range portion of the power band. The same engine also needs the highest flow volume possible throughout the mid-to-high range portion of the power band for maximum performance. This is where the issue and fundamental conflict arises.

For "X" amount of exhaust pressure at an exhaust valve, a smaller diameter exhaust component will provide higher flow velocity than a larger diameter tube. Unfortunately, the laws of physics will not allow that same small diameter tube to flow sufficient volume to realize maximum potential power at higher RPM. If we install a larger diameter exhaust component at any portion of the exhaust system, we will have enough flow volume for maximum power at mid-to-high RPM, but the flow velocity will decrease and low-to-mid range throttle response and torque will suffer. Yes, this is where the proverbial back pressure myth usually arises. Stay with me, it gets fun.

This is the primary paradox of exhaust flow dynamics and the solution is usually a design compromise that produces an acceptable amount of throttle response, horsepower and torque across the entire power band.

Now we throw in the process of scavenging in the exhaust system and all hell breaks loose.

In physics, we have inertial scavenging and wave scavenging. Different phenomenons, but both impact exhaust system efficiency and engine performance/longevity and affect one another. Scavenging effects are directly influenced by tube diameter, length, shape and the thermal properties of the tube material. As we modify the exhaust system via headers, mufflers, different style and size tube systems, with or without manifolds or cats, we are adversely affecting the original optimal design produced in a controlled environment by Ford engineers.

We are most certainly impacting reversion and the physical aspects negatively: in that with the loss of flow velocity not all of the exhaust is able to exit during the stroke time. Some of the reverted exhaust moves back toward the exhaust valve on a happy little collision course with the exiting gases where they then pass through one another like a freight train - with a little less energy and turbulence.

What happens when that reversion wave arrives back at the exhaust valve depends on whether the exhaust valve is still open or closed. This is the most pivotal moment in the exhaust cycle because the reversion wave can be beneficial or detrimental to exhaust flow and mechanical aspects of the valves depending upon its arrival time at the exhaust valve.

If the exhaust valve is closed when the reversion wave arrives, the wave is again reflected toward the exhaust outlet and eventually dissipates its energy in this back and forth motion. If the exhaust valve is open when the wave arrives, its effect upon exhaust gas flow depends on which part of the wave is hitting the open exhaust valve and this can cause physical negative affects on valves and their seals a well.


Since these happy little waves are comprised of two alternating and opposing pressures (one compressed and the other rarefied) each wave contains a compression area called a node at higher pressure and the rarefaction area called a anti-node at lower pressure. HERE IS WHERE LOW PRESSURE BECOMES THE ENEMY.... wait for it...wait for it......

………..A well designed exhaust will place the wave’s anti-node at the exhaust valve at the proper time for its lower pressure to help fill the combustion chamber with fresh incoming charge and to further extract gases from the chamber via vacuum. If it is not well designed and not reciprocating into the engine at the proper time you WILL see premature wear on valves and seals. If the stock engine from the factory is already mis-tuned or suffering a weakness in the system, it will happen. 'Tis a matter or physics, Gentlemen. I don’t make it up for fun. It is what it is.

(puts on rain slicker and hard hat for impending flames... )
 

blacksheep06

New Member
Jan 31, 2006
288
0
0
Sep 13, 2007
#11
  • Sep 13, 2007
  • #11
Jenns01TA said:
Is there a certain degree of inefficiency with low back pressure? Yes. Are your valves toast at this point, not necessarily so, but you are well on your way to serious issues if you don't compensate for the loss of backpressure in other areas of the engine. The blue smoke is a sign or wearing/worn valve guide seals.

Here is a great tech article from Flowmaster on engine building and creating a homeostatic neutrality between increases and decreases in backpressure. I would recommend you read it and consider the ramifications of the loss of backpressure to the life of your engine.

http://www.flowmastermufflers.com/backpressure.html


Good luck.
Click to expand...

In what way would you compensate in other areas of the engine? I have a offroad pipe with borla stingers and have SLP LT headers waiting to be installed, this makes me rethink! I also have 4.10's waiting also, wouldn't they help since the motor will be in a higher RPM most of the time where the free flowing exhaust actually benefits. O.K. Nevermind I just read the flowmaster article, good read.

And to you guys who noticed the smoke, I too noticed it a couple times after my first oil change. After the car was cranked and then turned off before the motor got hot, it would puff out a little bit of blue smoke the next time it was cranked. But ONLY in this scenerio.

I later found out that the shop manual for this car calls for 6.5 quarts but the manual in the glove box says 6. So for the last few oil changes I had them put in only 6 and I have never seen a puff since even in that same scenerio I mentioned. Maybe that's just my car though. It definately isn't using any between 3,000 mile changes.
 

blacksheep06

New Member
Jan 31, 2006
288
0
0
Sep 13, 2007
#12
  • Sep 13, 2007
  • #12
Maybe I'm wrong but from that flowmaster article, I gathered that less backpressure can lead to a lean condition in the motor resulting from raw fuel being sucked into the exhaust system before being ignited? Isn't that what these tunes are suppose to take care of?
 
T

TGJ

New Member
Mar 30, 2005
1,049
4
0
Sep 13, 2007
#13
  • Sep 13, 2007
  • #13
Jenns01TA said:
Sorry, gentlemen, but unless an engine builder with a physics background were to walk in here and tell me I am wrong, I am going to have a hard time not standing up on this one. I am not a ASE mechanic, never pretended to be, but one thing I do know is theoretical and mechanical engineering and looking at the "big picture".

A comment was made that NO exhaust system manufactured or available will/can cause premature wear to the valve seals. I strongly disagree in the truest sense of engineering and physics. Sorry. I respect each member here, but you gentlemen need to fundamentally realize that for every action there is a equal reaction.

We live in a world of natural laws and simply believing something is so, does not make it truth. With this said the core issue is aftermarket exhausts have EVERYTHING to do with physics and engineering. In time, ALL uncompensated modifications WILL impact engine performance and longevity.

When we buy that awesome aftermarket exhaust we are looking to: make appearance and sound changes as well as maximize exhaust flow out of the engine.

The inflow of an air/fuel mixture is a separate issue, but it is directly influenced by exhaust flow, particularly during valve overlap (when both valves are open for "X" degrees of crankshaft rotation). Another topic for another issue.

Perhaps the most important aspect of exhaust flow relative to aftermarket products is the issue of flow volume vs. flow velocity and the savaging that occurs during the exhaust stroke.

Ford spends thousands of hours designing a stock engine to maximize each one of these strokes. Even if their idea of maximization is not OUR idea, they have designed and integrated, fully enclosed and self-actuating environment.

A well designed (or modified) engine needs the highest flow velocity possible for quick throttle response and torque throughout the low-to-mid range portion of the power band. The same engine also needs the highest flow volume possible throughout the mid-to-high range portion of the power band for maximum performance. This is where the issue and fundamental conflict arises.

For "X" amount of exhaust pressure at an exhaust valve, a smaller diameter exhaust component will provide higher flow velocity than a larger diameter tube. Unfortunately, the laws of physics will not allow that same small diameter tube to flow sufficient volume to realize maximum potential power at higher RPM. If we install a larger diameter exhaust component at any portion of the exhaust system, we will have enough flow volume for maximum power at mid-to-high RPM, but the flow velocity will decrease and low-to-mid range throttle response and torque will suffer. Yes, this is where the proverbial back pressure myth usually arises. Stay with me, it gets fun.

This is the primary paradox of exhaust flow dynamics and the solution is usually a design compromise that produces an acceptable amount of throttle response, horsepower and torque across the entire power band.

Now we throw in the process of scavenging in the exhaust system and all hell breaks loose.

In physics, we have inertial scavenging and wave scavenging. Different phenomenons, but both impact exhaust system efficiency and engine performance/longevity and affect one another. Scavenging effects are directly influenced by tube diameter, length, shape and the thermal properties of the tube material. As we modify the exhaust system via headers, mufflers, different style and size tube systems, with or without manifolds or cats, we are adversely affecting the original optimal design produced in a controlled environment by Ford engineers.

We are most certainly impacting reversion and the physical aspects negatively: in that with the loss of flow velocity not all of the exhaust is able to exit during the stroke time. Some of the reverted exhaust moves back toward the exhaust valve on a happy little collision course with the exiting gases where they then pass through one another like a freight train - with a little less energy and turbulence.

What happens when that reversion wave arrives back at the exhaust valve depends on whether the exhaust valve is still open or closed. This is the most pivotal moment in the exhaust cycle because the reversion wave can be beneficial or detrimental to exhaust flow and mechanical aspects of the valves depending upon its arrival time at the exhaust valve.

If the exhaust valve is closed when the reversion wave arrives, the wave is again reflected toward the exhaust outlet and eventually dissipates its energy in this back and forth motion. If the exhaust valve is open when the wave arrives, its effect upon exhaust gas flow depends on which part of the wave is hitting the open exhaust valve and this can cause physical negative affects on valves and their seals a well.


Since these happy little waves are comprised of two alternating and opposing pressures (one compressed and the other rarefied) each wave contains a compression area called a node at higher pressure and the rarefaction area called a anti-node at lower pressure. HERE IS WHERE LOW PRESSURE BECOMES THE ENEMY.... wait for it...wait for it......

………..A well designed exhaust will place the wave’s anti-node at the exhaust valve at the proper time for its lower pressure to help fill the combustion chamber with fresh incoming charge and to further extract gases from the chamber via vacuum. If it is not well designed and not reciprocating into the engine at the proper time you WILL see premature wear on valves and seals. If the stock engine from the factory is already mis-tuned or suffering a weakness in the system, it will happen. 'Tis a matter or physics, Gentlemen. I don’t make it up for fun. It is what it is.

(puts on rain slicker and hard hat for impending flames... )
Click to expand...

You know what, this has merit if you put a 5" exhaust on a completely stock Honda Civic...

If what you are saying is true, Ford must have really ****ed up, because I have seen this issue of blue smoke on occasion out of a completely stock exhaust on an 06 Mustang GT.

If I recall correctly, you never even had a S197 GT, you had a 4.0L V6. You are telling me I am wrong when I have a 05 Mustang GT that had this issue and resolved this issue. Yeah today I leave it at that...
 

Jenns01TA

Active Member
Mar 31, 2005
37
0
36
Sep 13, 2007
#14
  • Sep 13, 2007
  • #14
Not true on the 5" pipe comment.

Ford has known issues with the valve design in the 3V - 4.6L engine. Has for years. I am not saying they are any worse or better than any other mfg. The LS1 has its own set of valvue issues. Nothing is perfect, it is a operating machine.

I do not have to own a 4.6L GT to know how it operates. To think otherwise makes a person who holds that belief closed-minded and defensive. Your issue very well could have been with the CMCV design and oil bypass. My technical contention is concerning this statement, Sir.

"This issue is not related to your exhaust system, none of the exhaust systems available will cause this..."

You are incorrect. Premature valve seal wear and/or failure CAN be caused by incorrect exhaust design and installations, it is compounded with other issues, yes, but your statement is as black and white as they come.

Do not be so quick to come out of the defensive shoot, TGJ, I have my hard hat and kevlar slicker on and am ready for more respectful technical discussions when you are.
 

Jenns01TA

Active Member
Mar 31, 2005
37
0
36
Sep 13, 2007
#15
  • Sep 13, 2007
  • #15
blacksheep06 said:
Maybe I'm wrong but from that flowmaster article, I gathered that less backpressure can lead to a lean condition in the motor resulting from raw fuel being sucked into the exhaust system before being ignited? Isn't that what these tunes are suppose to take care of?
Click to expand...

Yes, they can. A tune for AF compensations (spark timing, etc.) along with the increased exhaust velocity and flow from the aftermarket system is a perfect example of a compensatory modification to intake and exhaust.

Ruffy's mod list:

"Boy Racer" Wing, Boyd Cottington Junk Yard Dog Wheels, CDC Stars & Stripes Grill Emblem, Hurst Shifter, Redline Hood Quic-Lifts, Sequential Turn Signals, SLP Loud Mouth Exhaust, Steeda Pedal Covers, Steeda G-Trac Brace, Steeda CAI w/ Tune.

So long as the modification order took into account the CAI AND the exhaust, it should run fine and the tune profile should compensate. The trick is to ensure that it is not a canned tune for just a CAI. Once you add the exhaust, then the tune profile should reflect that as well. This is the beauty of modulated modification. There is the mechanical part and the tuning part. They must work hand-in-hand to operate optimally. With Ford's version of variable valve timing added to the mix, it can get a tad tricky.

I miss the days of a carb and a screw driver. lol
 
T

TGJ

New Member
Mar 30, 2005
1,049
4
0
Sep 14, 2007
#16
  • Sep 14, 2007
  • #16
Jenns01TA said:
Not true on the 5" pipe comment.

Ford has known issues with the valve design in the 3V - 4.6L engine. Has for years. I am not saying they are any worse or better than any other mfg. The LS1 has its own set of valvue issues. Nothing is perfect, it is a operating machine.

I do not have to own a 4.6L GT to know how it operates. To think otherwise makes a person who holds that belief closed-minded and defensive. Your issue very well could have been with the CMCV design and oil bypass. My technical contention is concerning this statement, Sir.

"This issue is not related to your exhaust system, none of the exhaust systems available will cause this..."

You are incorrect. Premature valve seal wear and/or failure CAN be caused by incorrect exhaust design and installations, it is compounded with other issues, yes, but your statement is as black and white as they come.

Do not be so quick to come out of the defensive shoot, TGJ, I have my hard hat and kevlar slicker on and am ready for more respectful technical discussions when you are.
Click to expand...

How many cars have you personally owned that have gone 9 seconds in the 1/4 mile? I had an 88 Mustang Cobra( I am a Canadian, GT's were known as Cobra's in those years ) The car went 9.83 @ 144 MPH in the 1/4, the car was street legal and track legal. I think in the total time I owned that car, there was about 15 different exhaust combo's on that car. I never exceeded 3.5" for the exhaust and I never had this issue you brought up as the culprit for the issue regarding these cars.

My 96 TBird has had 4 different exhaust combinations, currently it has gone from a 2.5" no crossover exhaust to a 3" exhaust to X-pipe. At the X-pipe, I have the option of dropping the exhaust or running it. If I don't disconnect it is 2.5" afterwards, if I disconnect it is 3". That car doesn't have this issue either. The car made 330 RWHP N/A with the 2.5" no crossover exhaust and maybe 12 miles on it.

Changing from one 2.5" Exhaust system to another 2.5" Exhaust system on a car that makes 280 RWHP N/A stock at best is not going to do a thing to what you are suggesting as the culprit. The reason for my comment.

I am saying this, putting an exhaust system for a 600 RWHP car on a car that makes 280 RWHP will do what you are saying. I am not disputing that. Making minor changes to an exhaust system will not do this.

Think about what you are saying. If you are correct that exhaust is affecting this, how can these aftermarket exhaust systems pass an emissions test? The amount of emissions that a car puts out has to change. If it is making these big changes like you are suggesting, the amount of emissions the car puts out has to have these big changes too. If what you are saying is true, kind of strange that just about every aftermarket exhaust kit for the 05+ Mustang is 50 State legal and pass emissions. The fact is, these cars are not seeing these big changes in emissions output when changing exhaust systems.

What I said is the culprit is this, oil gets sucked into the intake by the PCV. The oil gets trapped on top of the CMCV plates. When the plates open when the car starts, the oil enters the combustion chamber. You see a puff of blue smoke when the oil gets burned.

So yes, I am saying that if you knew how these 3V 4.6L worked, especially the CMCV and PCV systems, you might not have jumped in and blamed the exhaust like you did. I know an engineer in advanced powertrain at Ford. I talked to him about this issue more than a year ago after I brought it up on Modular Depot. He agreed with the PCV sucking oil into the intake and burning it off on startup as the culprit.

I am leaving this thread at that. If you got this issue, you have a couple of choices of how to possibly handle it...
 
S

speed1972

Founding Member
Mar 13, 2002
891
0
16
Denver, CO - Buckley AFB
Sep 14, 2007
#17
  • Sep 14, 2007
  • #17
I agree with the theoretical physics to a certain point (too many variables in exhaust/head design) from motor to motor. I think this issue comes down to Ford quality design (head/guide/valve). Almost all exhaust mods for these cars gain almost no gain in performance. Ford designed the exhuast system excellently, we just change the mufflers for a better sound. The only thing we change that can have even a small impact are the cats.

I don't have time to get in depth right now but that is my stance..

LB
 

DarkFireGT

Playing with my wife's really makes me want one.
10 Year Member
May 23, 2004
692
10
89
East Moline, IL
Sep 14, 2007
#18
  • Sep 14, 2007
  • #18
Jenns01TA said:
Yes, they can. A tune for AF compensations (spark timing, etc.) along with the increased exhaust velocity and flow from the aftermarket system is a perfect example of a compensatory modification to intake and exhaust.

Ruffy's mod list:

"Boy Racer" Wing, Boyd Cottington Junk Yard Dog Wheels, CDC Stars & Stripes Grill Emblem, Hurst Shifter, Redline Hood Quic-Lifts, Sequential Turn Signals, SLP Loud Mouth Exhaust, Steeda Pedal Covers, Steeda G-Trac Brace, Steeda CAI w/ Tune.

So long as the modification order took into account the CAI AND the exhaust, it should run fine and the tune profile should compensate. The trick is to ensure that it is not a canned tune for just a CAI. Once you add the exhaust, then the tune profile should reflect that as well. This is the beauty of modulated modification. There is the mechanical part and the tuning part. They must work hand-in-hand to operate optimally. With Ford's version of variable valve timing added to the mix, it can get a tad tricky.

I miss the days of a carb and a screw driver. lol
Click to expand...

Not that I disagree with you, but when I bought my Off Road H pipe, Doug and Brent both said I didn't need to update my tune. I was thinking I'd need a tune change as well, but neither of them updated my tune for me. These are two of the most respected mail order tuners out there. Are they just being lazy here?
 
F

fox1x

New Member
Oct 3, 2005
157
0
0
Northwest Ohio
Sep 14, 2007
#19
  • Sep 14, 2007
  • #19
Look, the SLP's are not the direct culprit of the blue smoke. Shoot, I ran straight-pipes on my 'ole '88 F-150 for years and it didn't start puffin' out blue smoke until it hit arounf 220,000 miles... and that probably was due to the fact the rings were worn. The milage on the cars that are puffing out smoke is WAY to low to blame exhaust for the problem. The PCV is the likely source.
 

GOLDENPONY

Founding Member
Jan 23, 2002
1,503
0
36
LOVELAND, OHIO
Sep 14, 2007
#20
  • Sep 14, 2007
  • #20
Smoke

Sorry Jenn, love ya, but i have to go with TGJ on this one. My '06 GT gives a puff of blue just once in a while-not often. I have Corsa Mufflers, BUT it did the same thing with the stock mufflers. I use Mobil 1 5W20 changed at 5K miles and the oil level doesn't go down between changes. The car runs super so I say, "No worries, mate".
As for the thing about the carb and a screwdriver, I am 61 and I remember those days, and they sucked! Be thankful for your fuel injection. You never got this kind of power with 281 cubic inches with a carburetor on 87 octane gas. My '69 Z28 got about 8000 miles on a set of plugs.
 
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