what is the best way to take a efi fuel tank and change it to carb setup with mechanical fuel pump and still be able to go back to efi later?
Hey,, I have always said that using a EFI pump with a carburetor set up was a disaster looking
for a place to happen. But did you guys go to the summit web sight and read what this part is?
It's made pacifically for when a EFI car is changed over to carburetion. Might be something to it
If the regulator was made just for this it might be OK. Hummmm I'm on the fence on this one.
Honestly if it were me, i think the easiest thing to do is just buy another tank for an '85 and put the other tank away in case you switch back. This eliminates any jerry rigging and it won't cost you a fortune...probably no more than having a sump welded into the tank.
AND... I am one of those "dumb, lazy, carb guys" but I'm not offended. I had my reasons for the conversion, It was easier, (to install, tune, and maintain) cleaner, (I don't have 50 thousand wires all over my engine) Reliable ( I don't have to whack out when some ambiguous sensor decides to take the year off and stop talking to the computer causing the engine to either not run right or not at all)
It's 90% converted already. Finish what was started and you're done.
Mike, it's comments like this that make us think carb swappers just don't know what they are doing.
There is really no tuning on a fox computer, it does it all for you. Literally guys make 330rwhp on a stock 302 by assembling the right parts properly, nothing more to it.
A carb is 1000% more work, that's a fact not an opinion.
How is it less work to change the wiring, cable setup and fuel system than it is to just swap parts?
Maintain? What's to maintain, there really isn't that many sensors and if one goes bad you run the codes and it tells you what's wrong. There is only a couple that will keep the car from running.
You got me on the more wires issue, but on the other hand, very few actually want to see a carb when they open an efi hood, so ya you have clean, but you also have undesirable at the same time.
It's like dismissing mp3's to use cassette tapes, there is zero logic to it.
If you want a carb because that's just what you want, say it. But making excuses to why it's better for any reason just doesn't make sense to people who know better.
That computer will only "do it all for you" up to a point. as mods progress past a point of the computers' built in compensation parameters, there needs to be some intervention on the part of the tuner to upgrade the computer. Sooner or later the injectors will reach max duty cycle, and...Oh ****! I gotta spend another (insert$ amount) for bigger injectors. Once the new injectors are there, I guess the computer just "knows" that the old pulse width, and related opening and closing times are now wrong, or does somebody have to spend $300-400.00 for a programmer to tell the computer to wise up?
As for me, I'll spend 20-30 bucks for some jets.
I'm not going to defend a carb as being a better option than F/I.And I don't make excuses for it either. As a working stand alone, F/I is as simple as it gets. However, this board is FULL of questions where guys are running into code issues that they can't figure out in order to get their junk running right (again). I guess there must be some sensors that keep the car from running.right.
Having only worked w/ programmable DFI stand alone F/I ECU's, the tuning learning curve was equivalent to college VS grade school for the carb. Idle adjustments, accelerator circuit, and main metering adjustments are made by turning a screwdriver..... Pretty simple in my book.
I will cop to having a Wideband O2 in my exhaust to take the guess work out, but that's cause I'm lazy,... I could get the same info from looking at the spark plugs.
I did the carb because I'm doing the 4.6 swap where I don't have all of the appropriate sensors/wires /ECM currently in place to make it a "plug and play". So accordingly the carb was SOOO much easier and SOO much cheaper it wasn't even worth considering keeping the "MP3 in place of the cassette." (I think it also appropriate that you upgrade your analogy to CD, from cassette. Todays carbs are so much better than that) Besides, (on a completely different tangent) MP3's are sonic garbage compared to the source they were downloaded/burned from.
Again, these threads get so far off from original topic from everybodys' donated .02, that by the time there is $2.00 contributed,....the original topic is lost.
The guy has a carb. He wants to get it where it is installed/working properly. It's already changed over. I was just saying, telling the guy to "change it back" is bad advice, and there are plenty of options to make it work, and cited my example as another point of view to keep the carb, and NOT spend all of the time and money converting it back.
Final thought....There are several documented cases where a carb swap and the intake manifold to allow it to go on (but escientially only a carb swap) on a engine on the dyno made more power than the F/I setup did. That'd be another reason for the swap, for "people who know better".
Gotta be a reason NASCAR,& the NHRA still use "cassettes".
madmike1157 said:However, this board is FULL of questions where guys are running into code issues that they can't figure out in order to get their junk running right (again). I guess there must be some sensors that keep the car from running.right.
well, respectful of your opinion, I have to disagree. Port fuel injection puts the atomized gas w/i a few inches of the valve, and there is nothing fast about the way gas mixes w/ air in the plenum of a carbed intake manifold. That, plus the fact that the now heavy gas laden air has to travel all the way through the intake ports on the manifold just to get where the injector was already and the resulting "lag" is way behind the throttle response of a "properly working" efi system.in my opinion efi is nice but nothing snaps a tach like a carb, the throttle response is instant when tuned right and im an old car guy so i love the sound of the 4bbl at WOT. my only fear is with efi dont you have to be carefull on what cam is used without a custom tune?
Guess what? I've been here for quite a while and have answered a lot of code problem questions. Don't believe me? Check out the post count. I have a 5.0 Mustang specific code problem definition/fix library that I update and refine on a constant basis. I use it to help guys who post code issues, and it has worked quite well for many problems.
The primary limitation of my efforts to help others has been their lack of skill in the electrical area and their inability to read and follow directions. I am not a rocket scientist and it sure isn't rocket science. People would rather throw parts at a problem than think, test and diagnose. They see a long tech note on how to fix a code problem and avoid it like some evil tasting medicine. As a result, they struggle along and never seem to get the code problem fixed.
Good troubleshooting takes time. Everyone seems to be looking for the magic tip that says replace this $13 part and your problems are cured. You don't have to think, dig or diagnose, just buy the part and install it. Unfortunately, it doesn’t work that way 99% of the time.
Thinking is hard work and educated thinking requires much more effort than simple parts swapping. The complexity and age of these 5.0 Mustangs works against that, as well as the number of hands that have “modified” the original design. Sometimes that modification is well done with good workmanship and other times it is mechanical road kill. It is very easy to become the victim of the previous owner’s efforts.
I spend a great deal of time trying to communicate the methodology of structured troubleshooting principles. For those who haven’t been beaten with this stick before, here they are again:
1.) Understand the system. That involves reading some books to get an overall picture of how it works. For 5.0 Mustangs, that list starts with the Chilton shop manual and the Probst book, Ford Fuel Injection & Electronic Engine Control 1988-1993 by Charles Probst :ISBN 0-8376-0301-3. It's about $30-$40 from Borders.com, see Amazon.com: Online Shopping for Electronics, Apparel, Computers, Books, DVDs & more. Select books and then select search. Use the ISBN number (without dashes or spaces) to do a search. Use the ISBN number and your local library can get you a loaner copy for free for 2 weeks or so.
For free automotive electrical training, see Automotive Training and Resource Site . I have personally reviewed the material and it is very good.
Another resource is the following website by Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host) for help on 88-95 wiring: Mustang FAQ - Wiring & Engine Info. Study the diagrams and tech articles. There is an amazing amount of good stuff in one place for FREE.
2.) Isolate the problem. You need to be able to break the system down into functional blocks or subsystems. Once you know what subsystem has failed, it is much easier to troubleshoot. Group problem symptoms according to what system controls them. Don’t look for a fix for ignition problems by adjusting the fuel pressure. Have an organized, step by step, approach to work your way through a subsystem before you quit and go off wildly chasing rabbits. You have three tools to use in your efforts: measure, observe and think!. Use these three tools to narrow down the list of possible failure points into a small, easily managed list of items.
3.) Install the fix. Now that you have a short list of suspected villains, plan your repair efforts so that you do the easy things first. If an item from the easy list didn’t fix your problem, then look at the high failure rate items. Spend some time here on Stangnet and you’ll get an idea of what the most commonly replaced parts are, things like TFI modules, ignition switches and fuel pumps.
If you make a change and it doesn’t relieve the problem symptoms, put it back the way it was. I have a stack of parts from where I swapped a part and it didn’t fix the problem. I put the old part back on the car and the new part went on the shelf. Someday I will either use them or trade them for something else.
so you are agreeing with me...........right?
what im leaning to is when you rev efi the rpms fade down where a carb drops like a rock, some efi setup can reflect this but most i have drove dont even compair. have you ever drove a performance carb setup?well, respectful of your opinion, I have to disagree. Port fuel injection puts the atomized gas w/i a few inches of the valve, and there is nothing fast about the way gas mixes w/ air in the plenum of a carbed intake manifold. That, plus the fact that the now heavy gas laden air has to travel all the way through the intake ports on the manifold just to get where the injector was already and the resulting "lag" is way behind the throttle response of a "properly working" efi system.
I have heard way too many guys at the local hang out try to "cover" their lack of off-idle throttle response on their carbed engines by winging the throttle from a much higher than idle engine speed.
Too many distant memories of Quadrajet bogs I guess, but I'm not sure how a carb sounds at WOT.
As for the cam though, not even close to my field of expertise,...ask Obie Wan Inject-Knobi,..I'm sure he can help
what im leaning to is when you rev efi the rpms fade down where a carb drops like a rock, some efi setup can reflect this but most i have drove dont even compair. have you ever drove a performance carb setup?
Can't say that I have... the $2500-$3000 for a set of downdraft Webers and a matching intake manifold is out of my current budget range...
Check out Wild V-8 Page if your pockets are deep enough to afford this WOW! kit.
now THAT would be a PITA carb setup to tune. But, for the looks alone I'd do it in a minute (that is after I find the 3.5k to buy it.)
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