Engine Engine Swap - lots of upgrades, not running quite right

79pace

something stupid will fall out of my mouth
Founding Member
Jul 21, 2000
223
30
38
49
Tulsa, OK
www.carbdford.com
Pulled out the factory bone stock 1993 engine. Never had valve covers or intake off. Dropped in the following

1990 Short block with a ball hone and fresh rings and bearings
E303 Cam and new timing chain set
E7TE Professionally ported heads with 194/160 valves, Screw in studs and guide plates
Elgin 1.6 roller rockers
Trick flow street heat intake
BBK 65mm egr spacer
Professional Products 65mm throttle body
75mm ProM Mass Air For 24lb Injectors
Brand New 24lb Injectors on the stock fuel rail
BBK Adjustable FPR (set to 39psi with vacuum removed)
BBK Off Road H with new O/2 Sensors
FMS Shorty Headers
Autolite Platinum plugs
Timing set to 14 with the pip out
Also did a 3G alternator upgrade at the same time I did all this

I retained the stock distributor but the car ran well before this. Just had no real power with the stock motor. Right now I got it fired and got the FP set and timing set but the car stumbles more than it should and if I touch the throttle it jumps and hangs before dropping. It does not feel like it should. I have checked for vacuum leaks and find none. What I fear is that I did too many changes at once and that the computer is not coping well. My question is should I start putting stock parts back on? Should I take it and have it tuned by someone that can burn a chip for this thing? Its the stock A9L original 93 5 speed car. I also have a battery light on now that I did the alternator upgrade. Is that normal?
 
  • Sponsors(?)


08GT500

Active Member
Jul 12, 2018
898
139
53
50
Massachusetts
Hi,
An E303 Cam will generally require a tune, generally, along with the TrickFlow intake. The shorty headers should be just fine without, O2 sensors haven’t moved. Pro-M MAF’s are great, IMO, but have to be run with the correct filter. Check the other topicals such as firing order, plugs homed,
type, sometimes overlooked- whether conical or oval(will be on the data sheet).
Only stock parts I’d be immediately concerned with are if you replaced functioning OE 02’s & replaced with non OE’s
Clocking the MAF slowly may gain you a bit more control over your idle. What is the Rpm’s, the iACV controlling it?
Is it hunting for an idle, or issues only occur once you crack the throttle?
Intake gaskets went down with no issue(?), if you have a vacuum gauge, see what she’s pulling at an idle...
There’s, as you mentioned, many new components. This may well be tune related, but prior to jumping to conclusions, pull & jot down what codes are in the EEC, clear them and see what comes back. Your EEC is a great ally, I’d utilize that data- first.
Certainly something transpiring with the battery light on Alternator Install, check it’s output voltage & your connections.
You could have a chip burned for it, or pick up a 4 bank chip with BAMA tunes for life from AM, listing all your new components.
Good luck!
-John
 

jrichker

StangNet's favorite TOOL
SN Certified Technician
Mar 10, 2000
27,441
2,772
234
75
Dublin GA
lowendmac.com
Before you go spending $$$ on a tune, fix what may be wrong with what you already have. Trying to tune something that is broke is a fruitless process that wastes time and money and accomplishes little or no good.

Dump codes sticky

Look at the top of the 5.0 Tech forum where the sticky threads are posted. One of them is how to dump the computer codes. Codes may be present even if the CEL (Check Engine Light) isn’t on. You don’t need a code reader or scanner – all you need is a paper clip, or if your lady friend has a hair pin, that will do the job.
I highly suggest that you read it and follow the instructions to dump the codes. http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/threads/how-to-pull-codes-from-eec4.889006/
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

79pace

something stupid will fall out of my mouth
Founding Member
Jul 21, 2000
223
30
38
49
Tulsa, OK
www.carbdford.com
An E303 Cam will generally require a tune, generally, along with the TrickFlow intake. The shorty headers should be just fine without, O2 sensors haven’t moved. Pro-M MAF’s are great, IMO, but have to be run with the correct filter. Check the other topicals such as firing order, plugs homed,
type, sometimes overlooked- whether conical or oval(will be on the data sheet).
I did not know I needed a certain filter. I have a large conical but have a cold air intake going on since the factory rubber tube barely fit on and is possibly a restriction at this point.

Only stock parts I’d be immediately concerned with are if you replaced functioning OE 02’s & replaced with non OE’s

I can put the stock ones back in but the car seemed to always smell like rich exhaust before this and the 02's were the originals from 1993. I replaced them with aftermarkets. I believe Denso or Bosch, Cant remember but I went with ones I had read people had good luck with as a stock replacement. I can put the stock ones back in to test.

Clocking the MAF slowly may gain you a bit more control over your idle. What is the Rpm’s, the iACV controlling it?
Is it hunting for an idle, or issues only occur once you crack the throttle?

Not sure what you mean by clocking the MAF. I bought the one that bolts into the factory location so its sitting with the electronics on top in the 12 o'clock position. It idles fine but yes if I bump the throttle it will zing, hang for second and then sometimes drops too low and stumbles for a second and then catches back up. Did not do this before. It was very crisp on the factory car. Has the IAC and TPS from the factory throttle body on it currently and they are hooked up and I assume working.

Intake gaskets went down with no issue(?), if you have a vacuum gauge, see what she’s pulling at an idle...

I have a vacuum gauge but did not put it on because all of the vacuum operated components appear to be functioning fine but i will check it. I did spray starting fluid around all of the intake gaskets and other components which I typically do to check for vacuum leaks. Idle will jump if you hit a leak with that stuff and it keeps the motor clean. easy trick I have always done. Seems like it has a good vacuum signal though when I unhooked the FPR.

There’s, as you mentioned, many new components. This may well be tune related, but prior to jumping to conclusions, pull & jot down what codes are in the EEC, clear them and see what comes back. Your EEC is a great ally, I’d utilize that data- first.

Ugh, I hate pulling codes on these older cars. Counting beeps and trying to figure out when the stop sections are is a PITA. I despise this process on these cars. Love the OBDII much better for this stuff. I dont have any check engine lights. Would I still have stored codes? I will still check into it. I would rather pull out some teeth though.

Certainly something transpiring with the battery light on Alternator Install, check it’s output voltage & your connections.
You could have a chip burned for it, or pick up a 4 bank chip with BAMA tunes for life from AM, listing all your new components.
Good luck!
-John

I read that if the white wire is not making good contact it could be causing the light on the dash. I will check it out. I also talked to a place here in town that will Dyno Tune it with a wideband and do a custom chip for $700 total or I can give them the list of mods and have just the chip burned for $450. I may go that route
 

Boostedpimp

15 Year Member
May 8, 2003
1,223
449
124
NJ
You do not need a tune for any of your mods you listed, the factory computer will relearn. Verify vacuum with a gauge and do what jrichker suggested and check for error codes. May need to mess with the TPS or IAC some

When you installed the cam did you line it up dot to dot or no?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

79pace

something stupid will fall out of my mouth
Founding Member
Jul 21, 2000
223
30
38
49
Tulsa, OK
www.carbdford.com
You do not need a tune for any of your mods you listed, the factory computer will relearn. Verify vacuum with a gauge and do what jrichker suggested and check for error codes. May need to mess with the TPS or IAC some

When you installed the cam did you line it up dot to dot or no?

Yes, Definitely not the first engine I have built. The cam in in properly. Just typically have built carbd engines in the past. So exactly how do you mess with the IAC? Did not know they had any adjustment to them. The TPS I know has a certain voltage I should put it at which I will admit I did not do. I just slightly preloaded it like the factory one is and bolted it down but will look up the voltage spec and try to fix it.
 

2000xp8

SN Certified Technician
Aug 8, 2003
7,195
1,230
194
NJ
Listen to boosted and Jrichker.

I've ran cams from mild to wild including the e cam (even one notching the pistons) and none needed a tune, even seen a fox make 650rwhp on the stock computer.

My first thoughts were also vacuum, TPS and iac.

I've said it a million times, TUNING is NOT a replacement for repairs.
 
  • Like
  • Agree
Reactions: 1 users

79pace

something stupid will fall out of my mouth
Founding Member
Jul 21, 2000
223
30
38
49
Tulsa, OK
www.carbdford.com
I am going to keep looking for issues. As I said, I did look for vacuum leaks and did not find one. I do however need to know how to adjust a IAC. I have never heard of them being adjustable. I know guys use to drill a hole in the throttle blade to get a cleaner idle back in the day. I also need to look up the voltage for the TPS unless someone knows what to set it at.
 

79pace

something stupid will fall out of my mouth
Founding Member
Jul 21, 2000
223
30
38
49
Tulsa, OK
www.carbdford.com
Ok, If your talking about un plugging the IAC and adjusting the set screw I will do that when I get home. That I did not do and could be part of my idle issue. Will check that out. Forgot all about doing that.
 

Boostedpimp

15 Year Member
May 8, 2003
1,223
449
124
NJ
I am going to keep looking for issues. As I said, I did look for vacuum leaks and did not find one. I do however need to know how to adjust a IAC. I have never heard of them being adjustable. I know guys use to drill a hole in the throttle blade to get a cleaner idle back in the day. I also need to look up the voltage for the TPS unless someone knows what to set it at.
Sorry I didn't mean to suggest actually adjusting the IAC.

You can't really do that unless you go the adjustment plate route which with your mods is not needed. I would hook up a vacuum gauge and see what your vac is at idle.

I would move the timing back to base 10 degrees to start and once you have it running right then advance it up

I would also perform the base idle reset and adjust the TPS accordingly and scan for error codes


 

79pace

something stupid will fall out of my mouth
Founding Member
Jul 21, 2000
223
30
38
49
Tulsa, OK
www.carbdford.com
I will reset the IAC and static idle when I get home and then i will check the TPS voltage to see if its below 1. I also ordered the better code scanner since i am lazy and dont want to count beeps. Should be here tomorrow. Gotta love amazon prime.
 

jrichker

StangNet's favorite TOOL
SN Certified Technician
Mar 10, 2000
27,441
2,772
234
75
Dublin GA
lowendmac.com
79pace said:
Ugh, I hate pulling codes on these older cars. Counting beeps and trying to figure out when the stop sections are is a PITA. I despise this process on these cars. Love the OBDII much better for this stuff. I don't have any check engine lights. Would I still have stored codes? I will still check into it. I would rather pull out some teeth though.

If you had actually read the tech note, you would have found out there is a better way...
See the Alternate methods: paragraph of this tech note and you can avoid counting beeps....

Dump the codes: Codes may be present even if the Check Engine Light (CEL) isn't on.

Dumping the computer diagnostic codes on 86-95 Mustangs

Revised 26-July-2011. Added need to make sure the clutch is pressed when dumping codes.

Codes may be present even if the check engine light hasn’t come on, so be sure to check for them.

Here's the way to dump the computer codes with only a jumper wire or paper clip and the check engine light, or test light or voltmeter. I’ve used it for years, and it works great. You watch the flashing test lamp or Check Engine Light and count the flashes.

Post the codes you get and I will post 86-93 model 5.0 Mustang specific code definitions and fixes. I do not have a complete listing for 94-95 model 5.0 Mustangs at this time.

Be sure to turn off the A/C, and put the transmission in neutral when dumping the codes. On a manual transmission car, be sure to press the clutch to the floor.
Fail to do this and you will generate a code 67 and not be able to dump the Engine Running codes.

Foxbody Diagnostic connector

?temp_hash=124ae0e661fe7ed48f0bcc9e908d5b73.jpg


Foxbody Diagnostic connector close up view


?temp_hash=124ae0e661fe7ed48f0bcc9e908d5b73.jpg


If your car is an 86-88 stang, you'll have to use the test lamp or voltmeter method. There is no functional check engine light on the 86-88's except possibly the Cali Mass Air cars.

583777.gif


The STI has a gray connector shell and a white/red wire. It comes from the same bundle of wires as the self test connector.

89 through 95 cars have a working Check Engine light. Watch it instead of using a test lamp.

583778.gif


The STI has a gray connector shell and a white/red wire. It comes from the same bundle of wires as the self test connector.


WARNING!!! There is a single dark brown connector with a black/orange wire. It is the 12 volt power to the under the hood light. Do not jumper it to the computer test connector. If you do, you will damage the computer.

You should get a code 11 (two single flashes in succession). This says that the computer's internal workings are OK, and that the wiring to put the computer into diagnostic mode is good. No code 11 and you have some wiring problems. This is crucial: the same wire that provides the ground to dump the codes provides signal ground for the TPS, EGR, ACT and Map/Baro sensors. If it fails, you will have poor performance, economy and driveablity problems

Some codes have different answers if the engine is running from the answers that it has when the engine isn't running. It helps a lot to know if you had the engine running when you ran the test.

Dumping the Engine Running codes: The procedure is the same, you start the engine with the test jumper in place. Be sure the A/C is off, and clutch (if present) is pressed to the floor, and the transmission is in neutral. You'll get an 11, then a 4 and the engine will speed up to do the EGR test. After the engine speed decreases back to idle, it will dump the engine running codes.

Trouble codes are either 2 digit or 3 digit, there are no cars that use both 2 digit codes and 3 digit codes.

Your 86-88 5.0 won't have a working Check Engine Light, so you'll need a test light.
See AutoZone Part Number: 25886 , $10
4.jpg




Alternate methods:
For those who are intimidated by all the wires & connections, see Actron® for what a typical hand scanner looks like. Normal retail price is about $30 or so at AutoZone or Wal-Mart.

Reader/dp/B000EW0KHW Equus - Digital Ford Code Reader 3145.
Or for a nicer scanner see www.midwayautosupply.com/Equus-Digital-Ford-Code-It has a 3 digit LCD display so that you don’t have to count flashes or beeps.. Cost is $22-$36.

Order it at Walmart for a better price and free shipping

41P3GQVDSHL._SS270_.jpg
 

79pace

something stupid will fall out of my mouth
Founding Member
Jul 21, 2000
223
30
38
49
Tulsa, OK
www.carbdford.com
I did ACTUALLY READ it. And i ordered that exact reader. If you had actually read what I said I stated I bought one and it will be here tomorrow.
 

jrichker

StangNet's favorite TOOL
SN Certified Technician
Mar 10, 2000
27,441
2,772
234
75
Dublin GA
lowendmac.com
I did ACTUALLY READ it. And i ordered that exact reader. If you had actually read what I said I stated I bought one and it will be here tomorrow.
Sorry , I missed that - I must have been editing the post about the same time you were entering yours.
 

79pace

something stupid will fall out of my mouth
Founding Member
Jul 21, 2000
223
30
38
49
Tulsa, OK
www.carbdford.com
No worries. I am going to do some messing with it tonight and see how it goes with the TPS and IAC first then run codes tomorrow after I get the reader in.
 

79pace

something stupid will fall out of my mouth
Founding Member
Jul 21, 2000
223
30
38
49
Tulsa, OK
www.carbdford.com
Just an update, I did adjust the TPS and got the voltage where it needed to be but while trying to get the idle set with the IAC unhooked it was fighting with me so I re traced all of the vacuum lines and found no issues but I did bypass all the crap heading over into the passenger fender well. on that rubber vacuum block to make sure I did not have an issue there. I sprayed starting fluid around again and it acts like it has a leak between the EGR spacer and the intake so I pulled that all loose and plan on replacing those gaskets and using some very thin liquid gasket sealant on it also. At the same time I am going to run all the rocker arms again. I am still hearing some ticking that is above what I think I should so will check and double check each one of them to make sure I dont have any too loose as well as any that might be over tight. Will report back after. I will say its worse idling now that I got the TPS set so at least its something.
 

79pace

something stupid will fall out of my mouth
Founding Member
Jul 21, 2000
223
30
38
49
Tulsa, OK
www.carbdford.com
Oh and I double checked the white wire on the alternator and crimped it tighter and it is making good contact. My volt meter on the dash is only showing about a quarter way up the gauge and the battery light is still on. I am going to verify voltage at the alt4ernator once I get it to run steady.
 

08GT500

Active Member
Jul 12, 2018
898
139
53
50
Massachusetts
No worries. I am going to do some messing with it tonight and see how it goes with the TPS and IAC first then run codes tomorrow after I get the reader in.
Very good! Alternator was the connector? Good you found the vacuum leak, you’ve also preload that’s a bit shy? Well, better loose than too tight, and at least it’s not pedestal mount rockers-right? lol.
Happy to hear that it’ll likely run better, especially as you need to seat those rings.
To clarify my Tuning comment(s), earlier- I’ll apologize for not being crystal clear-Tuning was never meant to be done up front, much less would I suggest any type of Tuning or further modification be performed on a platform with issues to bypass diagnostics efforts.
Once the issue(s) is/are found, you’ll gain better throttle response & gain significant low end Tq, mid to top end HP with the listed components running a tune after the culprit’s found, as I’m sure you’re aware.
I’d mentioned codes. Vacuum testing. Alt.Wiring, was planning on getting back with you earlier.
I’d not posted the idle checklist as I’d intended, included were the TPS voltage at idle & IACV function tests.
The PRO-M MAF should come with a flow sheet in its box, it’ll list the filter style intended for it. Clocking may help in some instances, affecting how incoming airflow flows over the actual MAF element.
Sounds like you’re gaining on this!!
Good luck!
-John
 

General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair
Mod Dude
Aug 25, 2016
20,130
6,798
203
polk county florida
Fix the charging issue, low voltage has a way of messing with computer controlled cars.
Also make sure all the grounds are connected and make good contact, there are 4 if I remember right.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user