Finally....KB dyno numbers

kirkyg · Dec 5, 2003

Not sure i understand what you were saying about ford getting 'it' right?

Very nice work i have to say. Is this completely custom or is it a stock setup from one of your other blowers saleen maybe?

where is the intercooler on the 03 cobra setup? the KB 03 cobra kit reuses the stock intercooler so the route i may go may require me to setup a cobras intercooler in my car.

kirkyg

JM01 · Dec 5, 2003

TJM01 said:
And you know who really got it right? Ford (with a little help from Roush). IMHO it's all about the intake and intercooler.

If I remember right roush cars also have a different belt setup.... right?
Did roush help Ford in the development of the 2003 Cobra intercooler/blower kit?

BTW Nice project! are you still gonna put the 2.3 ?

TJM01 · Dec 5, 2003

JM01 said:
If I remember right roush cars also have a different belt setup.... right?
Did roush help Ford in the development of the 2003 Cobra intercooler/blower kit?

BTW Nice project! are you still gonna put the 2.3 ?

Roush cars run a dual belt just like the 03 Cobra. Roush did the development for Ford on the Cobra.

Yes the intake is being built for the 2.3L

Kirk - I'm talking about port design. The ports in this intake are huge. Everything is custom using existing Ford parts. On the 03 it's in the same location except the water inlets come through the front of the intake. I had to turn them around for my application so the IC is actually in reverse of what the 03 does.

You won't be able to use the 03 KB kit unless you convert to the 03 Cobra setup first.

kirkyg · Dec 5, 2003

I'm planning on doing a 5.4L DOHC swap...Thats why i was asking about the intercooler. Modular performance already has a n/a upper/lower intake for the swap and they are designing one that a roots, works, & kb will bolt up to also. I'm not sure if the intercooler is being accounting for with their setup though.

kirkyg

Blown00GTAuto · Dec 5, 2003

Michael Johnson said:
....Also, what I've seen from the KB kit at 9 psi with minor bolt-ons is in the 425-450 rwhp range. I don't see a centrifugal making more than that at 9 psi. If you up the boost for the centrifugal you have to do the same for the KB.

We see that KBs are indeed very strong with just 9psi (and an intercooler). But if you're comparing KB against centrifugal psi for psi, why is it that you can safely run 9psi on a centrifugal without an intercooler, but you cannot run 9psi without an intercooler on the new 2v KB on pump gas? The thermal efficiency (or something) is apparently not the same.

My point of reference is page 163 of the 'November 2003' issue of MM&FF where Kenne Bell reported on its testing of the non-intercooled kit with a smaller pulley. Here's an excerpt from that page : "..The high octane fuel allowed them to safely crank up the boost in non-intercooled trim .....The testing stopped short of the 9psi intercooled pulley size of 2 7/8 inch, but it should be possible to produce over 400 wheel horsepower running a mixture of premium unleaded and race fuel while at the track.

kirkyg · Dec 5, 2003

Who said you can't run 9 psi on pump gas?

The 9 psi kit as it was originally advertised was tuned for 91 octane for the intercooler. 93 octane would be fine non-intercooled.

kirkyg

Blown00GTAuto · Dec 5, 2003

kirkyg said:
Who said you can't run 9 psi on pump gas?

The 9 psi kit as it was originally advertised was tuned for 91 octane for the intercooler. 93 octane would be fine non-intercooled.

kirkyg

Kenne Bell.

Did you see what I quoted from their report in my post above? Pure 93 octane is not the "race fuel" mixture KB was talking about.

FYI, running an intercooler is an equivalent replacement for 100 octane.

kirkyg · Dec 5, 2003

Im well aware of that...but what you dont understand is that KB is being very conservative. Dude there's no way you can argue that a 60+ degree cooler intake temp then centrifugal and roots style can't possibly be worse on detonation

kirkyg

JM01 · Dec 5, 2003

Blown00GTAuto said:
why is it that you can safely run 9psi on a centrifugal without an intercooler, but you cannot run 9psi without an intercooler on the new 2v KB on pump gas? The thermal efficiency (or something) is apparently not the same.

Try 10.5 psi without an intercooler with 91 gas (couldnt find 93 gas at the time for the Dyno) in the summer of AZ and no detonation at all.
I really dont know which blower is better but I can tell you wich tune it is.....

JM

B C · Dec 5, 2003

I run my Kenne Bell @ 9 psi with pump gas. CA 91 octane. That is what my tune from KB is setup for. If I want to run 10 psi, I need at least 1.5 more octane or have it retuned to pull some timing out. KB has a performance guide with some general information for Turbos and Superchargers. Great info for any FI app. Take a look.
http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/general-info/jimbells-supercharged-perf-guide.pdf

kirkyg · Dec 5, 2003

Oh thats another thing good point BC. Timing in the steeda tune is more conservative for instance than the timing in the KB tunes. Check out the degree timing they used on their dynos...its pretty high. Thats why a dyno tune is always a good thing. I think it would be better to run less timing and get more safe boost.

kirkyg

B C · Dec 5, 2003

kirkyg said:
Oh thats another thing good point BC. Timing in the steeda tune is more conservative for instance than the timing in the KB tunes. Check out the degree timing they used on their dynos...its pretty high. Thats why a dyno tune is always a good thing. I think it would be better to run less timing and get more safe boost.

kirkyg

I made a bunch more power when the timing was bumped up to 22 degress with 94 octane. But they pulled at least 5 degrees out for the 91 tune. I believe the most my tune will do is like 17 degrees in optimum conditions whatever that is. Out of curiosity does anyone know what range of timing the Steeda tune is setup for?

cap42 · Dec 5, 2003

B C said:
I made a bunch more power when the timing was bumped up to 22 degress with 94 octane. But they pulled at least 5 degrees out for the 91 tune. I believe the most my tune will do is like 17 degrees in optimum conditions whatever that is. Out of curiosity does anyone know what range of timing the Steeda tune is setup for?

CK would probably be the person to ask on that one I'm interested in this also

Michael Johnson · Dec 5, 2003

Blown00GTAuto said:
We see that KBs are indeed very strong with just 9psi (and an intercooler). But if you're comparing KB against centrifugal psi for psi, why is it that you can safely run 9psi on a centrifugal without an intercooler, but you cannot run 9psi without an intercooler on the new 2v KB on pump gas? The thermal efficiency (or something) is apparently not the same.

My point of reference is page 163 of the 'November 2003' issue of MM&FF where Kenne Bell reported on its testing of the non-intercooled kit with a smaller pulley. Here's an excerpt from that page : "..The high octane fuel allowed them to safely crank up the boost in non-intercooled trim .....The testing stopped short of the 9psi intercooled pulley size of 2 7/8 inch, but it should be possible to produce over 400 wheel horsepower running a mixture of premium unleaded and race fuel while at the track.

As was stated KB has a tendency to be conservative in their octane/boost recommendations. When doing an article for a national magazine it isn't good marketing to blow up an engine during teasting. This is probably the main reason for KB's conservative approach.

As for whether a KB can be run at more than 9 psi without high octane fuel or an intercooler take a look at my signature. I currently have the water injection and J&S Safeguard disabled and am running 12 psi on pump gas with 22 degrees total timing without even the slightest hint of detonation. This isn't uncommon either for us 5.0L KB guys. I don't see why the 4.5L GT kit would be any different. With the water injection enabled I've run 16 psi on pump gas without any detonation issues. Even in the peak heat of summer.

kirkyg · Dec 5, 2003

Michael Johnson said:
As was stated KB has a tendency to be conservative in their octane/boost recommendations. When doing an article for a national magazine it isn't good marketing to blow up an engine during teasting. This is probably the main reason for KB's conservative approach.

As for whether a KB can be run at more than 9 psi without high octane fuel or an intercooler take a look at my signature. I currently have the water injection and J&S Safeguard disabled and am running 12 psi on pump gas with 22 degrees total timing without even the slightest hint of detonation. This isn't uncommon either for us 5.0L KB guys. I don't see why the 4.5L GT kit would be any different. With the water injection enabled I've run 16 psi on pump gas without any detonation issues. Even in the peak heat of summer.

Thats pretty impressive 16 psi

kirkyg

Blown00GTAuto · Dec 5, 2003

kirkyg said:
...but what you dont understand is that KB is being very conservative. Dude there's no way you can argue that a 60+ degree cooler intake temp then centrifugal and roots style can't possibly be worse on detonation kirkyg

What I don't understand is who's claiming a 60+ degree cooler intake temperature difference between KBs and centrifugals . I won't take any guesses on that one .

B C said:
I run my Kenne Bell @ 9 psi with pump gas. CA 91 octane. That is what my tune from KB is setup for. If I want to run 10 psi, I need at least 1.5 more octane or have it retuned to pull some timing out. ...[/url]

Yes, 9psi with intercooler is good with pump gas, but was it you that ran a mixture of 91 pump gas with 100 octane at the track last time for safety? My apologies if I'm thinking of someone else.

Michael Johnson said:
When doing an article for a national magazine it isn't good marketing to blow up an engine during teasting...

Exactly. If 9psi and no intercooler was safe, they would have tried it. Centrifugals have (repeatedly) been tested at 9+psi non-intercooled.

Michael Johnson said:
.. am running 12 psi on pump gas with 22 degrees total timing without even the slightest hint of detonation. This isn't uncommon either for us 5.0L KB guys. I don't see why the 4.5L GT kit would be any different.

All I'm hearing is that the new KBs for 4.6 GTs are very different from their predecessors (for the 5.0).

B C · Dec 5, 2003

Blown00GTAuto said:
Yes, 9psi with intercooler is good with pump gas, but was it you that ran a mixture of 91 pump gas with 100 octane at the track last time for safety? My apologies if I'm thinking of someone else.

Yep that was me. I filled up at a Flying J on the drive out to Phoenix because that is where our caravan stopped. My thought was the gas is cheap for a reason. So I figured if I am going to run at the track I should either throw in some octane booster or mix in some race gas so I won't worry and for some cheap insurance. We bought 15 gallons. I topped off my tank with almost 7.5 gallons of 100 octane. I shared the rest with a buddy who runs a Vortech supercharged Bullitt and he put the other 7.5 gallons in his tank for insurance.

The other 2 times at the track I have run just straight Chevron 91.

el_kid_1 · Dec 5, 2003

B C said:
I run my Kenne Bell @ 9 psi with pump gas. CA 91 octane. That is what my tune from KB is setup for. If I want to run 10 psi, I need at least 1.5 more octane or have it retuned to pull some timing out. KB has a performance guide with some general information for Turbos and Superchargers. Great info for any FI app. Take a look.
http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/general-info/jimbells-supercharged-perf-guide.pdf

Ok guys, I need to have a clear understanding on the whole issue of gasoline octane rating and boost now that I"m about ready to install my new KB 4.6L (9 psi intercooled) Kit. So, KB tunes the chips for 91 octanes? If I use 93 octane gas, will I be able to run more boost safely? What would be top boost that I could run on my internally-stock engine with 93 octane gas? I don't remember telling James from KB the octane rating of the gas that I commonly use, which leads me to think that my chip was tune for 91. Here in Puerto Rico, I can get 93 octane gas almost at every pump station.

Michael Johnson · Dec 5, 2003

Blown00GTAuto said:
Exactly. If 9psi and no intercooler was safe, they would have tried it. Centrifugals have (repeatedly) been tested at 9+psi non-intercooled.

It's really the margin of safety they felt comfortable with for that particular test. Why take even the slightest risk to blow an engine and miss a great opportunity to promote their product. The 1.7L case used for the 4.6L GT kit uses an updated/improved rotor profile that is better than those used in the 1.5L case. They are actually more efficient. Based on my experience with the 1.5L, the 1.7L should be able to run 10 psi on pump gas with decent reliability. The timing would need to be adjusted accordingly. Like any other supercharger though the higher the boost level the greater the risk of engine damage.

All I'm hearing is that the new KBs for 4.6 GTs are very different from their predecessors (for the 5.0).

IMO, the 4.6L GT kit's design is about as close to perfect as KB could have done. They are making 400 rwhp on totally stock GT's. That includes the stock exhaust, air filter box, thottle body, MAF etc. Also, from B C's track times it looks like they will run high 11's with the stock gears and a set of DR's or slicks. It takes some serious work to break 400 rwhp with a KB on a 5.0L. The 4.6L intercooled kit does it just by bolting it on a stock engine and running 9 psi of boost. Plus it does it with almost 1/2 of a liter less engine displacement. This is why the kit impresses me so much.

el_kid_1 · Dec 6, 2003

Dan_Soprano said:
just a quick note, everyone is calling the Kenne Bell a "Roots" style blower. This is incorrect. The KB is a Positive Displacement Blower, which although a "Roots" is also a Positive Displacement type, is very different to a "Twin Screw" type. Go to the Kenne Bell Website and look at the tech tips and F.A.Q.'s. (www.kennebell.net). You can read for yourself the difference. Sorry guys, not trying to flame, but you got to read it for yourself. I was DEAD SET on an ATI Procharger until I did some SERIOUS research on Twin Screws and the Kenne Bell kit. With that said, I know some others here have also said that you need to get the correct blower for your needs and budget. Any blower is going to make your car a whole lot more fun, so lets forget the and go kick some ricer and GM A$$ together!!!!!!!
~DAN~

P.S. B C sorry to hear about your wreak, I'm glad to hear you weren't hurt.

I just found this article in the Kenne Bell site which contains valuable information on the main difference between roots and twin screw blowers. http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/general-info/twinscrew-vs-roots-fromcatalog.pdf

Finally....KB dyno numbers

kirkyg

JM01

TJM01

Patience is a GD virtue

kirkyg

Blown00GTAuto

kirkyg

Blown00GTAuto

kirkyg

JM01

B C

New Member

kirkyg

B C

New Member

cap42

New Member

Michael Johnson

kirkyg

Blown00GTAuto

B C

New Member

el_kid_1

New Member

Michael Johnson

el_kid_1

New Member

Similar threads

Finally....KB dyno numbers

Patience is a GD virtue

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency