I know this has been Beat to death, but I'm still confused..

[hotstang_46]

I'm talking about Cam Degreeing. I have a stumble that I thought was tune related, some of you may remember my post. I've been dealing with the head engineer over at sniper and we've eliminated the "tune" as the source of the "chugging" feeling...Leaving me to believe it's Cam Timing...I have no PTV, but it must be off enough to effect performance... though I'm no expert, so if anyone has any other suggestions please let me know.

so under my current plan of attack I need pop off the front cover, valve cover, and degree....

I'm so F ing confused about this, half the threads i come across are people arguing.... I've obviously never degreed before.

Does this kit include everything I'll need? http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=CCA-4796&N=700+115&autoview=sku

If not, can someone put a link for one that does, I'd like to order ASAP with overnight shipping so I can get my car up and going for a trip to the drags on next tues.

I've seen people mention two different ways to degree......which one is the best for someone like me that's never done it B4? The whole process seems really confusing to me now, but I'm sure once I do it, things will clear up...as they did with the head and everything else install I just did...

THANKS

 

[RandyStinchcomb]

do you have access to a vaccum gauge? as a vac gauge can tell you alot of whats going on inside your engine,ie: late valve timing, poor valve(s) seating, sticking valve(s) due to valve to guide issues, something patroit has had problems wth in the past and other sealing issues like rings or gaskets and a whole-lot more and before you tear it down, do a comp or leak test

just don't go rippin' into stuff

 

[5spd GT]

Here is a write-up from MD.com:

You should need adjustable cam gears as well I believe...

http://www.vtengines.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=11_1_8&products_id=1527

Degreeing a camshaft:

This is often thought of as some sort of voodoo magic but in reality it is very simple and quick to do. There are many different ways of doing things and some guys will do things differently than I do but most people do things the way I will mention below.

Tools needed:
- Dial Indicator w/magnetic base
- Degree Wheel
- Pointer for degree wheel (I use a piece of steel or even a bent up welding rod, etc.)
- Possible a flat piece of steel to bolt to engine to hold dial indicator
- Crankshaft socket for spinning the engine and holding the degree wheel (Comp Cams makes decent ones that are cheap).

Setup :
You'll need to get to the nose of the crankshaft so removing the front cover will be necessary. Valve covers and spark plugs must be removed also.

Procedure:
- Prepare engine by removing covers, plugs, etc.

I prefer to check the camshaft events on cylinder 1 and cylinder 6. The point of degreeing the camshaft is to verify that it has been installed correctly and that the manufacturer has ground it correctly. The camshaft manufacturer should always include a cam card that has all the valve events on it and centerlines, etc. You can obviously check any or all cylinders you prefer in the same way I will describe. I use 1 and 6 since they are opposite each other in the firing order and on opposite banks of the engine as well. I'll explain the most common degree procedure which is to check centerline of the lobe. I like to check other things like max lift and duration as well. There is lots of info you can get when doing this but in reality the cam is what it is and the only thing you can adjust is centerline. Back to the procedure...

Ideally you'd want to use a solid lifter when measuring. I have found that if you are using a used lifter that has not bled down then you should be fine unless it starts bleeding down. You'll know if it does as the readings will always change and never be repeatable. If it does, go ahead and let it collapse all the way and set the valve lash for zero clearance but don't bind the lifter up. On the overhead camshaft engines you pretty much have no choice to use a solid lifter if the lifter will not retain oil during degreeing.

First, you have to find TDC of the cylinder you are checking. Use a dial indicator to measure piston travel. Extensions for the indicator are going to be needed. There is a period of dwell at TDC. Watch the dial indicator and measure the piston at a set distance on the compression and the power stroke and then take the average of the two readings. I prefer to just use a small number like "0.050 for all my measurements.

Once you have TDC located adjust your degree wheel/pointer so that it is at 0.

Set the dial indicator up on the valve retainer such that the movement of the indicator is parallel with the valve.

Rotate the engine until you find max lift on the lobe you are checking. Set the dial indicator to 0. Ramp rates on the lobe are not the same on the ascent as the descent. Because of this you'll want to take an average like you did with TDC to find the centerline. I prefer to again use 0.050". I measure the degree wheel reading at max lift - 0.050" and then max lift + 0.050" and take the average. This is your centerline. If it is off then adjust the cam position accordingly. Typically you'll see approx 2 degrees or less discrepancy on your reading compared to the cam card. This is due to either hardware imperfections, measurement variability, or camshaft variability. I like to measure max lift here also. Duration can be measured also. I prefer to use either 0.20" or 0.050" lift for this measurement. Manufacturers like to use different lifts when advertising duration. Just pay attention to the cam card and you'll be fine. One thing though, I always measure things while spinning the engine clockwise. Never measure anything when spinning counterclockwise as the cam events will change as the camshaft drive will take up the slack in the chains or belts depending on your engine.

Good Luck, if nothing else, a bump for you

 

[Stan Weiss]

For finding TDC I like to use the positive piston stop method. The reason for this is that both times the crank rod piston are under compression. If you measure going up and than coming down you have added a small amount of clearance into the calculation.

 

[hotstang_46]

I ran to autozone and picked up a compression tester... I pulled all the plugs, which are the stock copper autolite's, gapped at .o54 (plugs look brand new, no coolant/ fuel/ oil on em)

Here are my results, engine was cold, gas pedal fully depressed when cranking and reading...

I'm running back to autozone now to get a vacuum guage and take a reading @idle, i will post that up as well....



4-164 8-178
3-162 7-174
2-165 6-172
1-164 5-164

FRONT OF ENGINE

What do these results tell me?

 

[hotstang_46]

I just found this when doing some searching....this is a copy paste from a MM&FF article...

It suggests being able to time the cams based on compression.... which is not what I am suggesting I want to do...if in fact it's my cam timing causing my problems I will do it properly.....but after reading this, my results suggest that my cams are in fact out of time with each other being that the drivers side bank is a little higher what do you guys think?

One thing we’ve discovered about the OHC modular motors is that they are highly sensitive to cam timing. Unfortunately, the production tolerances are such that the cam timing can be off significantly from the factory-prescribed settings. This is especially the case with the four-valve motors, as they seem even more likely than their two-valve counterparts to be burdened with inaccurate timing. The most probable scenario is that the right and left bank cam timing differs, causing one side to be either advanced or retarded relative to the other. Both may be off from the factory specs, but the real key is that one side will produce significantly less power than the other. The key to balancing power production is dialing in the cam timing.
This procedure takes time and know-how, but the results can be significant. Dialing in the cam timing on one of our 4.6 test motors (a mild one at that) was worth as much as 22 hp. Balancing the cam timing side to side on a 4.6 Cobra motor was worth a solid 12-15 hp, from 3,500 rpm to 6,500 rpm.
Dialing in the cam timing on the 4.6 is obviously much easier with the motor out of the car, but it can be accomplished with the engine in place. Cam timing is more critical on the mod motors than the previous generation 5.0 engines.
A word of advice: Determine whether your mod motor suffers from this cam-timing malady. Performing a compression test (something easily accomplished by even a backyard mechanic) will show if one bank of cylinders produces a higher compression reading then another. The adjust-ment procedure will be much easier with a set of adjustable sprockets, but we preformed our testing using modified stock sprockets. The best method (short of using a degree wheel and dial indicator) would be to adjust the cams until both banks produce the same cranking compression.
The two-valve 4.6 motor ran best after we balanced the compression to match the lowest reading (both at 155 psi). In the case of our 4.6 four-valve motor, the best power came after the compression of both banks produced the highest reading (200 psi). Once we have adjustable cam sprockets, we should be able to dial in the cam timing with the cranking compression gauge.

 

[5spd GT]

In that example (good find by the way), it says they 'balanced' both sides to the 155 pressure, which was the lowest reading.

You have 162 p.s.i. on one side, and 164 p.s.i. on another...that is pretty darn close in my opinion. But then again, you have a few on the higher side in the upper 170's...

I'm sure someone with more experience will help you out better...

Svttech or Randy...are a couple that come to mind...

 

[hotstang_46]

I wanted to check vacuum only so I could post up on here because I thought it may be useful for you guys to help me diagnose what my problem is.......my clymer manual is very spotty on this... but I thought in order to check vacuum, I disconnect the tube that connects to the fuel pressure regulator in the very center on the top? I did that, and attached that tube with the tube on this guage...and the needle moved like a millimeter, didin't even register

and i don't know if this is just my head or what...but when I took out all the plugs and unhooked the fuel switch in the trunk....upon rehooking things I took the car about 1/2 block right away and the car really felt way better, almost to the point of being normal, it smoothly went up to 3000rpm....but then within about 25 secs it returned to being very stumbly and chuggy,,

 

[5spd GT]

I would think cam timing would be from 'start to finish'...interesting.

It may not be the cam timing...but I'm keeping the thread alive, I think your going the right route and doing it right!

 

[hotstang_46]

thanks for the bumps randy....

I just noticed something that may or may not be related as well..... When I start my car, my theft light flashed very quickly for about 30secs to a min....then it slows down to a slow flash...but it's not consistent...it will flash say 3 times slowly.. have a period of say 6 seconds pass then flash again a number of times, doesn't seem to have a pattern of how many times it flashes and the time in between flashes though ...

It's getting dark out right now and that's why I noticed it in the garage....this may have been doing this all along and I didn't see it....I have white guage overlays and it makes some of the lights unnoticeable...

If any of you guys helping me....which I can't tell you how thankful I am . need any other info I have datalogging capabilities with my sniper stuff... so I can get more real time data than I even know what the heck it's for........ I have no idea what I'm looking at but is this normal? spark jumps between 12 and 20 on the guage as idle is holding steady @ 7-800

 

[5spd GT]

That theft light may be giving you a diagnostic code...I know it can work that way with newer model Fords with the service engine light. I had to use the lights when the Ford Taurus SHO was acting up...

For example, the normal flash rate should be fairly noticable. So just count the number of flashes (approx 2 sec apart) for the first digit then there should be pause for aprox 5 sec sperator then count the number off flashes for the second digit. I can't remember any 3 digit codes each full set of two should be your code. If there is only one code you will get the same number over and over.

Example: A diagnostic trouble code 32 is displayed as follows:

flash flash flash - (two second pause) -

flash flash - (five second pause)...

flash flash flash - (two second pause) -

flash flash - (five second pause)...

But then again you said it flashes rapidly...so

David

 

[Stan Weiss]

Balancing the compression reading only means that both cams will have the same IVC. That does not mean that they are installed on the correct ICL. Remember advancing a cam produce more low end toque/HP and a higher compression gauge reading, retarding a cam produce more high end toque/HP and a lower compression gauge reading. In most cases installing the cam on the manufactures suggested ICL will give the best all around performance.

 

[hotstang_46]

sorry there 5 spd....thanks for the bumps, don't know why I called you randy... it's been one of those weeks man....


After I read your last post, I went back out and there is a definate pattern.... flashes fast for exactly one minute.....then flashes out a code....

1 flash
pause
6 flashes
pause
1 flash
pause
6 flahes

on and on

I have no check engine light and I'm not picking up any codes on my sniper interface when I run a check...... I've been PMing with SVT...hopefully he'll check in

 

[5spd GT]

It's cool man, so you have a possible code number: 16

SVT will have a much better idea about that one...

I found this, and I'm sure the same numbers relate...

http://autorepair.about.com/library/faqs/bl623e.htm?terms=auto+security

16 is for Vehicle Security Status Missing.

 

[hotmustang331]

My car stubles and jerks @ 1400-1700RPM while in gear...been dealing with it for the past 35,000 miles LOL. Started after the cams went in from what I remember . Running a mail order tune from mustang tuning, then had it dyno tuned by Tim...same deal. Then had it again retuned from scratch by Tim again for the turbos (loaded in the mongoose tune and tweeked it I believe)...still does it. But oddly enough the car drove 99% perfect in GA, but as I came west it got worse. Sucks, but I deal with it LOL. I have no idea what the heck is wrong...but almost seemes tune related.
If I pull the battery for 30 mins and take off, that buck isnt there at all, and the car drives darn near PERFECT... but as I drive more, it slowly comes back . Sucks.

 

[hotstang_46]

did you by chance degree your cams?

see, in my case, it's alot more than a stumble...I wish that's all it was.

5 spd, thanks for looking that up......it will be interesting to see if all this stuff is related....I know one thing, I'll be back on the phone with the my contact over @ sniper...... I'm guessing that may be related to the tuning software?

FYI, the words out of the snipers engineers mouth (who has spent uncountable hours reviewing data logs and helping me out to rule out the tune) There is no way it could be tune, all parameters look good....even with a stock tune and your mods your car should be running better than what it is, it must be your cams......

I tend to believe him that it's not the tune at this point in time....as the dude knows what he's doing....but as far as him being able to pin point the cams

As SVT and Randy told me, I don't want to go ripping into it again and degreeing if that's not even the problem.... this is just such a bummer to me right now, I've invested almost every hour of the last week and half trying to get this darn thing going..... I thought the hard part would be the physical install of all the parts

oh well, hopefully with your guys help I can get her up

 

[Disturbed One]

The one thing I've wondered reading though the posts here are.... is the vehicle being tuned by yourself there and a shop doing it relatively close?? Can't the tune be affected by the change in sea level and how dense the air is going from one type of setting to the next??? Like taking a car from Mile high denver to florida which is around sea level?

 

[hotstang_46]

The one thing I've wondered reading though the posts here are.... is the vehicle being tuned by yourself there and a shop doing it relatively close?? Can't the tune be affected by the change in sea level and how dense the air is going from one type of setting to the next??? Like taking a car from Mile high denver to florida which is around sea level?

I'm not doing any tuning.....Though I have the ability with the software I don't have the knowledge. The guys @ sniper are very competent. They are in Orlando which is very hot and low altitude just like me here in palm springs.... None the less though, they mantain, that even with a bone stock tune, which we've thrown on the car, it should be running better...... let alone the one the engineer over there custom made for me after sending him some data logging info, and him drawing on his experience tuning tons of vehicles similair to mine.

 

[hotstang_46]

well, I decided to take off the valve covers and front cover and check my work...

I was expecting to find myself off a tooth, but I'm not I don't have copper links to reference but I used the point of reference on the crankshaft and camshaft sprockets, marked my chains, took them off and folded them in half... the marked links were at perfect opposite ends, meaning it was hooked up correctly.

Called Scott @ VT and I asked him if it's possible my chains were hooked up correctly and they were far enough off to have to degree due to the crappy tolerances in the ford sprockets.... He told me I'd be the first person he'd EVER heard of who absolutely had to degree.... He told me they HAD to be hooked up wrong... he told me to double check and hook everything back up and see if it ran properly....

I really need some ideas here guys, I'm at a loss and really dissapointed I can't pinpoint the problem

 

[hotstang_46]

Update.....

Scott @VT agrees that I should advance the timing on the DRIVERS side cam because of my afformentioned compression.... I will advance it and grind down the keyway on that cam sprocket.... that roughly provide me with the same camshaft position from right side bank to left. Then bolt the car back and maybe just maybe it will work.... He still mantains I would be the only one he's ever heard of who has ABSOLUTELY had to degree to get the car to run well...

If it does not run well after coming back together at least i can eliminate cam timing....

i also talked to GUNNAR at Patriot..... i asked if there is anything on the patriot heads that I can check that may be to blame for this problem..... he said no... I didn't want to get into anything at this time, but I know patriot has had issues before, however I don't know if those with afformentioned problems would/ have experiened the problem I am..... maybe someone will chime in here.... He said however, I may NEED to upgrade my injectors...I told him I have never heard of anyone having to do that with my mods.......

I will continue to post back with progress..... I'm headed back to the garage to proceed with the driver cam....

Any more input on my problem would be appreciated........