Looking for information

[turbomaxx]

Ok, So I now know that the stock 4.6 is good for up to 400-450 horsepower on stock internals.


I plan to start out with the following mods in the following order:

Intake(K&N)
Exhaust(Pypes X pipe, mac true duals)
Cam(NEED HELP)
Computer Upgrade(NEED HELP)
Clutch
Boost


PART 1.
Now, I understand that turbo's lag. They take time to spool, and that can cost you.
I understand that a super charger runs off the belts, so while it takes a small amount of power away, it also provides substantial gains, and does so without lag.

Here's where I get a little confused.

Pro-charging. I know it runs off the belts, much like a supercharger. So what is the difference? I studied pictures of each setup, and I notice that pro-charging seems to utilize a turbo that is powered by the belts. Correct?


I think what I am asking is just simply this: What are the differences between Supercharging and Procharging?



Part 2.
When I do a cam upgrade, the idle changes, depending on the cam. I know that with a more agressive cam, I need to switch to the recommended valve springs. Do I also need to look into a computer upgrade?


I may very well add more "parts" to this post. I apologize for the large post, but I am just trying to learn. I appreciate any help that is offered, as I am not familiar with muscle cars.

 

[eliteJAE]

hey man and welcome :SNSign:

ok so youre are right about superchargers dragging on the engine a bit but pushin out serious power, and turbos are known to have some sort of lag time before the boost fully kicks in.......however, most turbocharged mustangs i've seen around here are beasts and do not suffer as much turbo lag as you would expect.

superchargers like Vortechs and such only look like turbochargers, but they are still superchargers because they are belt driven. Turbochargers are operated only by the collection of exhaust gases. So, even though they look like turbochargers, if they are belt driven then they are considered superchargers (im almost sure of this). People will chime in if im wrong

as for the computer upgrade, its not a very common mod, or not that I'm aware of. What is very common, however, is to purchase a handheld tuner and use that to tweak your computer. Examples are Predator, SCT Livewire, etc. Also, you could purchase tuning software and an OBDII cable and custom tune from your laptop, although thats for very experienced tuners. There's a plethora of ways to obtain tunes or programming upgrades from different companies, which is alot more popular that replacing your stock computer. Even if you install new cams, a tuner could compensate for that. If your cams are overly aggressive you're goig to need to switch out to different springs, but thats really dependent on your choice of cams. At this point, if you're not an experienced tuner, it'd be better if you found someone to dyno tune your car for you, or to work with companies directly to obtain a suitable tune for your cams.

its good to hear you're planning to jump into the boost, lots of people around here do so and never look back. i hope to accomplish that someday good luck on the build.

 

[BurningRubber]

A Procharger is just a brand of supercharger as eliteJAE mentioned. They are known as "centri" or centrifugal superchargers. They sit infront of the motor and some of them do look like massive turbo's. Vortech's dont have the turbo look too much.

Roots and twin screw superchargers sit ontop of the engine, replacing the stock intake manifold with the entire supercharger unit. The upper is a blower, the lower is the rest of the intake manifold.

Some centrifugal superchargers lag just as turbo's do. They dont kick in HARD untill 35-4000 RPM sometimes depending on brand.

Roots/twin screw's such as Kenne Bell produce nearly instant boost right off idle and pull hard all the way to the redline.


As far as getting cams, you dont really need them for the power level you want to acheive. They would help get you there if you got some blower cams, and you could probaly run a little less boost to acheive the numbers you want with them, but they arent neccessary. They are expensive, and then its a good idea (some cams require it) to change the springs/retainers with the cam swap.

No computer upgrade needed. A custom dyno tune with tuning software as eliteJAE mentioned can dial in a perfect tune (so long as the tuner is good) for any application.

If you get alot bolt ons you can get a handheld flash tuner and adjust a few points such as spark advance and fuel delivery, gear ratios, idle, cooling fan on/off temps, auto transmission shift points, and some allow you to datalog. It will cost a little less than a dyno tune normally, and a reputable tuner will "burn" you a tune and can usually get very accurate with it.


Welcome and feel free to ask more questions.

 

[turbomaxx]

hey man and welcome :SNSign:

ok so youre are right about superchargers dragging on the engine a bit but pushin out serious power, and turbos are known to have some sort of lag time before the boost fully kicks in.......however, most turbocharged mustangs i've seen around here are beasts and do not suffer as much turbo lag as you would expect.

superchargers like Vortechs and such only look like turbochargers, but they are still superchargers because they are belt driven. Turbochargers are operated only by the collection of exhaust gases. So, even though they look like turbochargers, if they are belt driven then they are considered superchargers (im almost sure of this). People will chime in if im wrong

as for the computer upgrade, its not a very common mod, or not that I'm aware of. What is very common, however, is to purchase a handheld tuner and use that to tweak your computer. Examples are Predator, SCT Livewire, etc. Also, you could purchase tuning software and an OBDII cable and custom tune from your laptop, although thats for very experienced tuners. There's a plethora of ways to obtain tunes or programming upgrades from different companies, which is alot more popular that replacing your stock computer. Even if you install new cams, a tuner could compensate for that. If your cams are overly aggressive you're goig to need to switch out to different springs, but thats really dependent on your choice of cams. At this point, if you're not an experienced tuner, it'd be better if you found someone to dyno tune your car for you, or to work with companies directly to obtain a suitable tune for your cams.

its good to hear you're planning to jump into the boost, lots of people around here do so and never look back. i hope to accomplish that someday good luck on the build.

Ok, thanks man. That really cleared up a lot.

So when I cam it, I would be best off just getting a hand held tuner, and taking it all to my local performance shop and get it all tuned for me?


Also, it may take some time before I boost, but it certainly will happen one day.


Thanks for the useful information, as well as the welcome!

 

[turbomaxx]

A Procharger is just a brand of supercharger as eliteJAE mentioned. They are known as "centri" or centrifugal superchargers. They sit infront of the motor and some of them do look like massive turbo's. Vortech's dont have the turbo look too much.

Roots and twin screw superchargers sit ontop of the engine, replacing the stock intake manifold with the entire supercharger unit. The upper is a blower, the lower is the rest of the intake manifold.

Some centrifugal superchargers lag just as turbo's do. They dont kick in HARD untill 35-4000 RPM sometimes depending on brand.

Roots/twin screw's such as Kenne Bell produce nearly instant boost right off idle and pull hard all the way to the redline.


As far as getting cams, you dont really need them for the power level you want to acheive. They would help get you there if you got some blower cams, and you could probaly run a little less boost to acheive the numbers you want with them, but they arent neccessary. They are expensive, and then its a good idea (some cams require it) to change the springs/retainers with the cam swap.

No computer upgrade needed. A custom dyno tune with tuning software as eliteJAE mentioned can dial in a perfect tune (so long as the tuner is good) for any application.

If you get alot bolt ons you can get a handheld flash tuner and adjust a few points such as spark advance and fuel delivery, gear ratios, idle, cooling fan on/off temps, auto transmission shift points, and some allow you to datalog. It will cost a little less than a dyno tune normally, and a reputable tuner will "burn" you a tune and can usually get very accurate with it.


Welcome and feel free to ask more questions.

So a basic hand held tuner allows me to control all that? Sounds like a good investment! Won't have to worry about shift points, though. 5 speed all the way!

 

[eliteJAE]

yea, investing in a good handheld tuner is a good idea, especially if you are going to do extensive mods later on. It comes in handy greatly when you get a CEL light (check engine light) and you are wondering wtf is going on. Most tuners nowadays have dataloggers and such and are great for troubleshooting. It really puts you in control of the car, and lets you monitor what's really happening.

you should check out the dyno numbers sticky at the top of 4.6 tech or talk, dont remember which one. It shows good examples of the power people make with certain parts and set-ups.

BTW, Americanmuscle.com is a great site with alot of mustang products, you can find the handheld tuners there and little explanations on them.

 

[turbomaxx]

yea, investing in a good handheld tuner is a good idea, especially if you are going to do extensive mods later on. It comes in handy greatly when you get a CEL light (check engine light) and you are wondering wtf is going on. Most tuners nowadays have dataloggers and such and are great for troubleshooting. It really puts you in control of the car, and lets you monitor what's really happening.

you should check out the dyno numbers sticky at the top of 4.6 tech or talk, dont remember which one. It shows good examples of the power people make with certain parts and set-ups.

BTW, Americanmuscle.com is a great site with alot of mustang products, you can find the handheld tuners there and little explanations on them.

Oh man, you're my friend! Thanks man. I'll definitely look for that dyno thread.

 

[04YELLOWGT]

A few things to add.

If you do cams you will want to take it to a tuner to get an accurate tune for them and to also gain the full benifits of them. Cams would be something I would do later on down the road after you get the blower. I did mine while I was building my motor.

I wouldn't even waste your money with an intake the gains will be very small and you wont even use it after you get a blower.

As for the hand held tuner alot of tuners use SCT but you want to get what your local tuner or who ever you plan on taking the car to uses.

Another thing you might want to look into is gears. A set of 3.73s will benifit you now and after you get the blower.

 

[04YELLOWGT]

One more thing, I ran 12.7s with just a O/R X Pipe, Catback, 4.10s and a Vortech SQ-Trim @ 6psi. That was through an auto with a 2.0 60' obvioulsy with a 5 speed and good driver you could pull a better time.

 

[turbomaxx]

One more thing, I ran 12.7s with just a O/R X Pipe, Catback, 4.10s and a Vortech SQ-Trim @ 6psi. That was through an auto with a 2.0 60' obvioulsy with a 5 speed and good driver you could pull a better time.

That's respectable for sure.


How much should I expect to spend for a set of gears? And when you say that, you mean just the rear diff, correct?

 

[BurningRubber]

Gears can be had from $120-$250 on average.

Most people will highly reccomend FRPP (Ford Racing Performance Products) gears. Motive is also another good brand.

While you are at it, it is good insurance to buy a master bearing kit and have all the bearings in the rear end replaced. Expect another $70-$120 for that, but it is worth it.

Even further, have the trac-lok rebuild (factory limited slip). The kit is only $45 or so, but it will keep that nasty 1 wheel peel away, lol.




And a handheld tuner will let you control those imputs within a certain range. You cant write your own 100% custom tunes unless you buy a top-end tuning kit, but you do have a little control over stuff. Tweaking the supplied tune with my Diablosport Predator I gained 6.9 rwhp and 13 lb ft. of tourqe by advancing my timing and adding some fuel... I also use it as my gear calibration.

 

[04YELLOWGT]

How much should I expect to spend for a set of gears? And when you say that, you mean just the rear diff, correct?

Summit has FRPP 3.73s for $160. Depending on how many miles you have on your car like Burning said a bearing kit might be a good idea.

All this would be something I would have a shop install. I would say you could get it installed for $300-$400. A buddy buddy did mine for $200 and he is usually quite a bit cheaper than a normal shop.

 

[turbomaxx]

Ok, I think I'll look into the 3.73 gearing and bearing set first.


Also, how much would I have to change to run a KB 2.6L?


Would I have to swap internals? And what would I run for gas? I'm guessing it would have to be 97 octane. Or would I have to run special fuel?

 

[BurningRubber]

You could run a 2.6 Kenne Belle on stock internals, but you would need to keep the boost down so it wasnt making much more than 400 rwhp to be safe.

You can use a supercharger, nitrous, or turbo and have it tuned for 93 octane if available to you.

You could also get a "race" tune for race fuel if you wanted.

 

[04YELLOWGT]

Ok, I think I'll look into the 3.73 gearing and bearing set first.


Also, how much would I have to change to run a KB 2.6L?


Would I have to swap internals? And what would I run for gas? I'm guessing it would have to be 97 octane. Or would I have to run special fuel?

Well to reap the full benifits of the 2.6 you would need forged internals and better fuel system. Any blower you should run 93oct if avalible.

You could do a race tune but the down side is depending on how often you use it (ie: on the streets ) it screws your plugs up and you need to change them every 300-400 miles on the race fuel.

 

[turbomaxx]

I actually have access to 97 Octane... Is that not available everywhere? I live in northern Virginia.

So if I go with the 2.6 KB, How many pounds of boost will put me at... say, 410?

Or do I have to dyno it, get a baseline, and tune from there?

 

[04YELLOWGT]

I actually have access to 97 Octane... Is that not available everywhere? I live in northern Virginia.

So if I go with the 2.6 KB, How many pounds of boost will put me at... say, 410?

Or do I have to dyno it, get a baseline, and tune from there?

Yea 97s good just more money and the way gas prices are now the "cheaper" the better. If you have 93 I would just use that depending on the price difference from 93 to 97. I've used 110 a few times with my race tune and at $7.00/gallon it hurts. LOL

Im not sure on the KBs I would say maybe 8-10psi.

 

[turbomaxx]

Ok, sounds good.


The supercharger will probably not go on for a good long while, but I was looking for information and I found plenty here.


Now I'm thinking:
1. Buy Car (Should be a Mustang GT owner within a week)
2. FRPP 3.73 gears
3. Pypes X OR pipe, Mac true dual exhaust
4. SVT wheels
5. Clutch (Stage 3 at least) and short shifter
6. Start collecting necessary gauges and computer equipment for boost
7. SC

 

[mogs01gt]

Ok, sounds good.


The supercharger will probably not go on for a good long while, but I was looking for information and I found plenty here.


Now I'm thinking:
1. Buy Car (Should be a Mustang GT owner within a week)
2. FRPP 3.73 gears
3. Pypes X OR pipe, Mac true dual exhaust
4. SVT wheels
5. Clutch (Stage 3 at least) and short shifter
6. Start collecting necessary gauges and computer equipment for boost
7. SC

If you are actually going to slap in a blower or turbo, I wouldnt do gears until you are 100% certain on which setup you will be using. 3.73 gears will be too much gear with a Kenne Belle or a Turbo but would work great with a Vortech/procharger/paxton.

Also, get long tubes if you are going with the blower.

 

[04YELLOWGT]

If you are actually going to slap in a blower or turbo, I wouldnt do gears until you are 100% certain on which setup you will be using. 3.73 gears will be too much gear with a Kenne Belle or a Turbo but would work great with a Vortech/procharger/paxton.

Also, get long tubes if you are going with the blower.

Most people I see run 3.73s on a KB and 4.10s on a Centri car. I have 4.10 with my Vortech and love it.