My Baers suck when wet!!>>>

streetgrande69 · Oct 20, 2004

This was the first time in months (like 6 mths) that it has rained and the first time since I’ve upgraded my front brakes. Well I almost smashed up my stang because wet rotors suck in my Baer set-up. Just thought you guys should know

6Stang7 · Oct 20, 2004

So under normal rain driving conditions you had breaking problems? Have you called Baer up?

cstang68 · Oct 20, 2004

How do they "suck"? Did they lock up too easily? Or did you just find out that everyone around here (SD) randomly brakes in the rain for no apparent reason.

allcarfan · Oct 20, 2004

cstang68 said:
How do they "suck"? Did they lock up too easily? Or did you just find out that everyone around here (SD) randomly brakes in the rain for no apparent reason.

People do that there too? I think here when a rain drop hits a windshield, it completes a circuit for the brake lights and they light up.

Snail50 · Oct 20, 2004

what were the circumstances?

I was caught in the rain not long ago with my 67, and after I turned onto my home street I drove through a puddle (on purpose), then slammed on the brakes just to see what would happen, and mine worked fine.

Snail50 · Oct 20, 2004

allcarfan said:
People do that there too? I think here when a rain drop hits a windshield, it completes a circuit for the brake lights and they light up.

LOL, down here most cars are equipped with rain sensors that not only govern the max speed at 25 mph, but they also put on the 4-way flashers (but only while car is in motion with the headlights off).

Route666 · Oct 20, 2004

I've been told with all brakes that you should keep them dry by keeping them warm, by using them a little every so often. I've never done it, and the brakes on all the cars I've driven have been fine, but that's just something to watch out for. If you're not running splash shields, that may be the problem.

6Stang7 · Oct 20, 2004

What it sounds like it happening is water is soaking the rotor, so when he hits the brakes, there is water between the pad and rotor. It will bscailly feel like you have manual drum brakes; very hard to get the car to stop.

streetgrande69 · Oct 20, 2004

cstang68 said:
How do they "suck"? Did they lock up too easily? Or did you just find out that everyone around here (SD) randomly brakes in the rain for no apparent reason.

they "suck" by fading, not locking. its when i've just been through a big puddle.

DarkBuddha · Oct 20, 2004

I've read a few articles about braking system design, even some heavily technical factory design studies (from when I was trying to figure out the viability of retrofitting ABS), and one of the things I seem to recall is that braking systems can be overbuilt. Essentially, based on the mass of the vehicle and the weight distribution, there is supposedly an ideal amount of braking potential for each corner. Of course, one of the contributing factors is rotor diameter. Going too small causes longer braking distances, but going to big can result in either quick locking or lack of heat. Heat is supposedly necessary for brakes to work correctly, especially effecting the efficiency of the pads.

I just wonder if those big Baer rotors are disipating or resisting heat to such a degree that they can't eveaporate water easily or the pads are staying too cool (less efficient).

Any one have any thoughts or insight??? Hell if I know for sure...

Route666 · Oct 20, 2004

Brakes don't work when wet, after going through a puddle you should apply a little brake to dry them out, before you need them. Unless you are out driving hard, and the brakes are hot, they're going to need drying before they work well. The effect is amplified with performance brakes since the more aggressive the brakes, the hotter the working temperature of the pad material is, and so being cooled by water makes them less effective in that respect.

Since most people with their heads screwed on right don't drive V8s hard on wet roads, I'm guessing your brakes wouldn't have been warm. It's not just your Baers, but this is most likely one of the reasons why OEM components aren't extremely good performance-wise. New cars are made to drive in rain and snow, etc, not just at the track in the midday sun.

Route666 · Oct 20, 2004

And DarkBuddha, about the heat thing. It depends on your pad material. Racing brakes usually need more temp because they are used lap after lap and are always hotter, and so performance street ones benefit the same way, but to a lesser extent. (Lower temps)

I'm also of the opinion of being able to make brakes too big. Bigger rotors may not get warm enough, like you said. Also, more rotating mass on a bigger circumference defeats the purpose of having bigger brakes, and also is detrimental to suspension reaction time. Them's my thoughts.

bnickel · Oct 21, 2004

one of the reasons i plan on going no bigger than 12" rotors, especially on a street car. personally i've always thought the 13" brakes were more bling than anything, don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, especially Eric's. but i really think a good 12" setup will work much better on a street car than the an identical setup with 13" rotors, unless you have huge tires on the front, like on an 8" rim with a 275 section width or bigger. remember most winston cup cars only run a 12" rotor and they use the brakes a lot

DarkBuddha · Oct 21, 2004

I suspected I might be stirring the pot with my previous post. I have similar feelings about the current big brake phenomenon, that there may actually be such a thing as "too much brake". Apparently I'm not alone.

rbohm · Oct 21, 2004

DarkBuddha said:
I suspected I might be stirring the pot with my previous post. I have similar feelings about the current big brake phenomenon, that there may actually be such a thing as "too much brake". Apparently I'm not alone.

there is such a thing as too much brake, but there are many factors involved here.
one example given is that nextel cup cars use a 12" brake rotor, but that is more rules than anything else. remember that cup cars are regulated to a 15" wheel and a 12.19" rotor is as big as you can fit inside a 15" wheel, especially with a 6 piston caliper.
with larger rotors on the street, you need to use a softer pad to maintain heat in the pad, where you need it. also thicker rotors retain heat as well and should be used when stepping up to larger brakes. this is not true however for drum brakes, mostly because they are self energizing, and the more pressure you put on the drums the more braking you get, as you create alot of heat that doesnt dissipate as quickly as disc brakes do. that is one reason why disc brakes are more consistant than drums, but i digress.
it sounds like baer sent you the wrong compound pad for your brake system, OR you ordered the wrong system for your car. more than likely a combination of both.

mustang70 · Oct 21, 2004

What about water getting into the slots and holes? I know that can lead back to the heat thing since it'll be cooling the rotor off internally, but is there a way that the water can actually build up and make some kind of barrier on the rotor?

Snail50 · Oct 21, 2004

Route666 said:
Brakes don't work when wet, after going through a puddle you should apply a little brake to dry them out, before you need them. Unless you are out driving hard, and the brakes are hot, they're going to need drying before they work well. The effect is amplified with performance brakes since the more aggressive the brakes, the hotter the working temperature of the pad material is, and so being cooled by water makes them less effective in that respect.
.

I agree with 666 on keeping the brakes warm for optimum performance & dryness.

BTW, Eric: how long have you been running those front brakes? Could it be that the pads are glazed or due for replacement?

Snail50 · Oct 21, 2004

mustang70 said:
What about water getting into the slots and holes? I know that can lead back to the heat thing since it'll be cooling the rotor off internally, but is there a way that the water can actually build up and make some kind of barrier on the rotor?

I'd think that the water would flow out of the slots & holes while driving.

jerry S · Oct 21, 2004

if you were city driving, your brakes might not have been hot enough to burn off the moisture and you experienced fade, as others have speculated here. If you were on the highway and this happened, then I would be worried. Another remote possibility could be incorrect pads. People get so caught up in tricking out their cars with performance options that they put specialty compound brake pads on street cars that are meant for racing only. These things need to get HOT before they work and driving around the street, you aren't going to heat them up enough to work properly.

gp001 · Oct 21, 2004

Most of the big, cross drilled, slotted, rotor brake systems are geared more for "dry performance" use. I am sure the pad/rotor combo setup up you have was created with that in mind and not wet weather use. I am willing to bet you have a condition of not enough heat for the pad/rotor. Not only is the cooler air temps, water soak, holes, and slots causing this, but also the fact that the holes and slots reduce the swept area of the rotor and make it much more difficult to build heat. I think your system is out of it's application range. Part of why "bling" should not be a factor in brake systems. Holes are not your friend.

My Baers suck when wet!!>>>

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