My brake issues

I plan on replacing the rotors at the same time.

now, what are these shims? Are they the brass colored pieces that clip in each end of the caliper bracket?

No. First, there are usually some shiny springs that clip on the ends of each bracket. And sometimes one that clips in the middle and presses down on the pads when the caliper is installed. These again provide a smooth surface to prevent the "fingernail on a chalkboard" type sound.

The shims are simply thin pieces of metal that sometimes stick on to the back of the pads, held by adhesive and locating pins on the pad backing, or held on by clips that sort of grab the metal pad backing. Leaving them off can result in excessive squealing that can sometimes be eliminated by spraying "blue gunk" on the backs of the pads. But the shims are far less messy. It is just that "steel on steel" will squeal with any sort of vibration, which the pads most certainly produce when stopping as they grab the rotors.

All you need are pads for reliable stopping. The end clips and shims are squeal eliminators...
 
  • Sponsors (?)


the centering issue I don't follow. Most calipers today are of the "free floating" variety, meaning that all the force is applied through a piston (or pistons) on one side, and the entire caliper floats on the sliding pins so that the other side of the caliper transfers force equally to that side.

Older calipers did not behave like this, and if the rotor wasn't centered, you would get reduced brake effectiveness and one pad would wear down until it centered the rotor that way.

But with calipers that float on pins, the idea of "centering" doesn't make any sense because the caliper has no fixed reference point, but freely floats to evenly apply pressure to both sides of the rotor...
 
But with calipers that float on pins, the idea of "centering" doesn't make any sense because the caliper has no fixed reference point, but freely floats to evenly apply pressure to both sides of the rotor...


Unless one or both pins bind up or seize. Then the caliper pushes the pads unevenly and the caliper cannot return to "neutral" so to speak.
 
No. First, there are usually some shiny springs that clip on the ends of each bracket. And sometimes one that clips in the middle and presses down on the pads when the caliper is installed. These again provide a smooth surface to prevent the "fingernail on a chalkboard" type sound.

The shims are simply thin pieces of metal that sometimes stick on to the back of the pads, held by adhesive and locating pins on the pad backing, or held on by clips that sort of grab the metal pad backing. Leaving them off can result in excessive squealing that can sometimes be eliminated by spraying "blue gunk" on the backs of the pads. But the shims are far less messy. It is just that "steel on steel" will squeal with any sort of vibration, which the pads most certainly produce when stopping as they grab the rotors.

All you need are pads for reliable stopping. The end clips and shims are squeal eliminators...

That is correct.
The squeal is due to vibration.
 
OReilly also carries Wagner Rotors...MADE IN THE USA!!! :flag:

I don't think the shims are your problem. New pads may have pronounced a warped rotor that you didn't notice with the old pads. The slide pins may be binding ...but I've never had that problem in 20+ years of replacing my pads. Maybe it is bent?
 
Could it be the wheel bearings that are actually the problem? With the wheel raised up there should be no in/out movement at all when you try to move it with your hands. There should also be a dust cover over the hub bearing assembly's 36mm retaining nut.
 
Ok, after reading the original post along with all the others I'd say what you have here is a possible sticking slide pin but what you DEFINATELY have is a set of pads that didn't get to bed in correctly.

You wouldn't put a new clutch in without turning the flywheel would you ? Brakes are the same way. The linings need to bed into the contact surface on the rotor properly but because the pad is fresh and the rotor surface is not the pad linings didn't contact the rotor properly. This WILL cause problems, not always but eventually.

Have your rotors turned or if you believe that will cause performance issues then throw new rotors on there. You will need to use a new set of pads which I think from the thread you have already purchased. I personally buy Centric brand pads becuase they come with the shims pre-installed on the pads and have always come with all addition metal clips specific to the car that are ware-parts. I know the rear pads from Ford come with the shims on them and a new set of metal retaining clips.

As for the shims they are talking about in that article:
Chris corrects this problem by adding three shims each (included) on the top and bottom of the driver-side brake assembly between the caliper bracket and its mounting plate. The passenger side is fine

They should have said washers. Basically they are centering the caliper mounting bracket over the rotor (and doing a bad job of it).

For the record, shims are put on brake pads to reduce the noise and they do make a difference. Mechanics that claim that brake squeek is due to brake in of the pads and not the abscence of shims are full of crap. Freshly installed brakes should NOT sqeek.

And of course, when you service floating calipers (such an assnine design) always take care of the slide pins by cleaning the old grease off an applying new grease. From what I've heard, Ford recommends dielectric grease. I use a synthetic grease made for brakes to lube my slide pins (begrudgingly).
 
Ok, after reading the original post along with all the others I'd say what you have here is a possible sticking slide pin but what you DEFINATELY have is a set of pads that didn't get to bed in correctly.
(begrudgingly).

Good post Rusty!
A lot of mechanics blame squeaking brakes on dust and that's just not the case. The problem is vibration although a bad rotor/pad combination or highly contaminated pads *can* cause the problem. When talking about new parts though, it's almost always vibration causing the squeaks.
A lot of people don't realize that it is very important to maintain the right combination of pad material vs rotor material and properties. Their is more to the rotor than being round and having the holes in the correct place:lol:

Manufacturers design the pads and rotor as a team that works together. Change one or the other and things may or may not work as well. If pads are not bedded properly, or overheat due to dragging, they may glaze and this will cause problems as well.
FWIW i like Bendix brakes for the same reason you like Centric, IOW they come with all the parts and the shims are on the pad already. When you open the box everything is laid out nicely in plastic wrap and it just looks so professional compared to the usual pads crammed into a box too small to fit them.
I believe Raybestos comes with hardware as well.

The reason Ford suggests dielectric grease is because it's silicon based (AFAIK) and won't harm the rubber boots.
 
greasing the slide pins didn't help. The front right stopped the spinning wheel then didn't let go :mad:

will check Oreilly tomorrow and pick up some rotors. I don't see how that will help, but it sure won't hurt. Will probably pick up a new caliper too :mad: :mad:

I keep telling myself "should have let the dealer replace them for $250" but then I think if the problem was already there, it would have turned into another $500 payday for the dealership :mad: :mad: :mad:
 
Kraw,

Go back and re-read the first sentence of message #2 in this thread. BobHyatt, IMO, is a man who knows brakes.

That you have an apparent binding/sticking caliper only after a pad replacement is an important clue. Were the original pads on this wheel worn to less than 50% of original pad thickness?

What may have happened goes something like this:
As the pad friction surface wears away, the caliper compensates by extending the piston to a rest position furthur out of the cylinder bore. If the piston boot is torn or not properly greased, moisture will enter and corrode the side of the piston in the area where it protrudes from the cylinder. When you push the piston back in to make clearance for new pads, the corroded area of the piston now contacts the cylinder wall, and binds. The only fixes are to grind away some of the new pad surface, rebuild the caliper, or replace it.

Been there, done that . . . more than once. I now always replace brake pads before they are worn to 50% of the original thickness. Pads are a heck of a lot cheaper than calipers.
 
I did notice the pins were a little rough looking and had some worn spots on them. I may just pick up new pins and see if that helps first. A lot cheaper then a caliper

I didn't notice the boots around the piston being torn. I looked closely but could have missed something
 
ok, so I bought a new slide pin kit, changed that out, lubed up the contact areas of the brake pads. I took it out and drove some. It didn't lug going up the hills like it had. I pull into the garage and jack up that side, and try to spin it. It's still hard to spin, but about as hard to spin as the other side that didn't have any issues.

Also, the right side still has heat coming from it when I stop where as the left side isn't so hot. I assume that's because the pads have to wear into, or seat as someone called it, the rotors? How long should that last?

I'm just not sure how much the brakes should drag. To me, it seems like too much. I have to put a little effort into spinning the wheel and I don't recall the back being the same.... yet, it takes about the same effort for both front tires


:(
 
I don't like _any_ difference between two wheels on the same "axle". Some get a bit worried when their front wheel doesn't spin cleanly, and they hear a dragging sound. That could be normal pad/rotor friction since the pad does not retract away from the rotor like shoes do when you have 'em on the rear (non-mustangs or older ones only of course).

If both front wheels feel the same, I would not worry. If one is hotter than the other, that's cause for investigation.

Again, there are two parts to this problem and one gets overlooked frequently...

(1) the pin is rusted because the small boot is cracked. Or the pin feels like it has tar on it because the old grease has solidified, absorbed dust/dirt/water or whatever. Clean the pin. Crocus cloth 9r very fine emory paper will make it as good as new. It needs to be smooth, but it doesn't have to be polished.

(2) the hole the pin goes in on the bracket is important as well. If the pin is clean, but the hole is full of crap or rusty, the problem will return soon or never go away. The easiest way to clean this is to go to Wal-mart and go to the sporting goods department. Buy one of the small round metal gun-cleaning brushes (38 caliber will work, although it will be a little tight). Use that with some good solvent and scrub those holes out until they are clean. Dry them out and insert the pins. They should slide in freely.

Once you have them clean, apply some good high-temp grease to the pin, slide it in and turn it a turn or two. Remove it, grease it again, and repeat until you are convinced that everything inside is coated with grease. Reassemble and the problem will be gone.

Only three things can cause dragging brakes, and one can be eliminated quickly.

1. pressurized system. Caused when another brake is dragging, boils the fluid which pressurizes other calipers and makes them appear to be bad. we had this happen on our left rear caliper, but we noticed the right front dragging since we more often work up there. We had lost a few 10ths in the 1/8 mile as well, and began to notice a general loss of power everywhere. This was the cause.

To eliminate this, just crack the bleeder valve on the one that you are checking. If fluid comes out, this is most likely your problem. Once you release that residual pressure, the wheel will probably spin normally. Now press the brake pedal again and check for number 2.

2. Caliper piston is sticking, almost always a result of rust caused by the dust boot cracking and letting water in. This can be repaired easily enough if the piston is not completely stuck. Remove it, and with the brake line still installed have someone _slowly_ press the brake pedal and push the piston(s) out. If you have dual-piston calipers, this can be a bit of a pain so if one moves and one stays put, use a big c-clamp, or block of wood to prevent the one that is moving from popping completely out. Now continue pressing the pedal and push the other one out. You can then pull them the rest of the way out and now all you need is to remove the rust/gunk in the caliper bores, and then clean up the pistons. I again use crocus cloth, but anything that is _very_ fine (steel wool for example) will work. Put that 400/800 grit emory cloth away. It will remove more metal than you think and you do not want a distorted bore or piston. Once it is cleaned up, clean the caliper out (now you disconnect the brake line but don't let the fluid drain out as air in the ABS is a bitch..) Clean everything up, install a new o-ring from the rebuild kit you did remember to buy, lube the piston with new brake fluid and it should go in smoothly with hand pressure. Once the o-ring and piston contact, it will get a bit tighter so you can use a c-clamp or brake caliper tool to seat it all the way. Re-install and bleed.

3. ALl that is left is the sliding floating caliper pins, which I explained how to clean up above.

There are some other very rare problems, such as a bent bracket which cocks everything slightly and can cause sticking. But almost every sticking brake I have ever worked on fit one of the three scenarios above...

Too many clean the pins and then stick them into a hole full of monkey-crap and wonder why their brakes still stick. Because monkey crap is sticky. So get it out of there. :)
 
I changed the pins out to give me the last results posted. I checked it last night and it spun fairly well.

As for the caliper rebuild kit, I checked all the autoparts stores in town, no one carried a kit for the pbr 2 piston :( A rebuilt caliper was only 45 bux.

I'm going to drive around some tonight and make sure it's all good

hey, I read somewhere that you have to bleed the master cylinder. I was looking in that area and it looked like there were 2 nipples. Which to bleed?

Damnit man, I just need to buy a Haynes! Where can I get one of these?

thanks for all the input!
 
I changed the pins out to give me the last results posted. I checked it last night and it spun fairly well.

As for the caliper rebuild kit, I checked all the autoparts stores in town, no one carried a kit for the pbr 2 piston :( A rebuilt caliper was only 45 bux.

I'm going to drive around some tonight and make sure it's all good

hey, I read somewhere that you have to bleed the master cylinder. I was looking in that area and it looked like there were 2 nipples. Which to bleed?

Damnit man, I just need to buy a Haynes! Where can I get one of these?

thanks for all the input!

If you didn't let the fluid go real low in the master cylinder you shouldn't have to bleed it.
You can get a Haynes manual at Autozone or just about any of the parts stores. If you plan on working on your own car though you should invest in the Ford Factory manuals which you can get either on ebay or from Helm.