NA timing values, what are yours?

[Killercanary]

Hey guys, I have been tuning my car now for a little over a week with my AEM stand alone. I have my AF dialed in good enough for now and now I want to start adding timing to try and wake it up. I'm not going to mess with the AF anymore until I start adding the timing as adding timing will tend to lean it out a little. Based on my datalogs I'm seeing ~26* of timing at ~4300 under WOT and it slowly makes it way to a maximum of 28.7* at 6200rpms. The car still feels very sluggish and I'm hoping that adding a bit more timing will really wake it up. I have been hitting the base timing table that came with the AEM with a "global" type of adder like I used to with my eec tuner. All I have added thus far is 3* to the base and it still feels slow. I remember that most HCI combos liked anywhere from 32-36* of total timing. What have you guys found in your NA combos that worked best? I'm looking for any of the following: stock compression, low compression, high compression, 302, stroker, etc NA combos. Also, what kind of timing are you guys seeing down in the lower load/rpm tables during cruise and part throttle? Here's a brief datalog I did this weekend while tuning it. Top red line is RPM, middle is AF ratio, and the bottom is timing.

 

[Grn92LX]

I have mine come in at 36* down low then by 4000rpm when standalone turns on, I dropped it down to 33-34* til about 7000 rpm. 11:1 347.

 

[Killercanary]

Thanks! That is more along the lines of what I thought I'd need to be at. I have to watch down low though as I'm already approaching the high 30* range and I don't know if its safe to go much higher than that.

Anyone else have any input?

 

[final5-0]

Paul

I prefer to use the spark table for maximum flexibility
and
When doing a global change ......
you sometimes can get ping in the mid load range as there, the values
are the greatest so a global change just adds all the more.

My dizzy is at 10 and my global adder is at 0

I have changed my low load and mid load values very little IIRC

My WOT tuning is focused around ......
the greatest load row in the spark table

With Aluminum heads you sometimes can find a gain with
higher values than when using iron but a general range
would be 32 to 38 for a NA combo

I have all my total value in by 2500 and above

Here are the main cell values

900@14
1100@18
1300@22
1500@26
2000@32
2500 and up @34

In hot Texas summers I'll run 32 to 34
and
In the winter ... 36 to 38

I run 93 grade gas

btw ... I did my baseline pulls you see in the sig at 34

Grady

 

[Killercanary]

Thanks Grady! That is very helpful. I too was worried about developing a mid load ping as the values are already pretty high there with the 3* I've already added. My only other concern is will I get any weird stumbles and such if I abruptly go from say 25 at part throttle instantly to 34* at WOT without a smooth transition between the two?

 

[final5-0]

Thanks Grady! That is very helpful. I too was worried about developing a mid load ping as the values are already pretty high there with the 3* I've already added. My only other concern is will I get any weird stumbles and such if I abruptly go from say 25 at part throttle instantly to 34* at WOT without a smooth transition between the two?

I understand about that transition thing

As I see it ... you just have to ramp it up and how gradual each
step turns out to be is dependent upon how many points you
got to work with.

I don't know how the AEM does its thing but as you know ...
with the EEC Tuner & Tweecer you got not only rpm but
load to play around with so that has not been any kind
of problem that I have been able to see.

It is a lotta fun to see what all you can do
with your tune when you have something that
makes sense to you ... isn't it

Grady

 

[zenboy99]

I have all 36 degrees in by 2500rpm as well. I've been away from the Mustang world for awhile, but I think I remember Trick Flow TW heads really like alot of timing due to the combustion chamber configuration.

I can run 10% ethanol gas (only in emergencies) and I don't have any ping at all.

 

[blksn955.o]

I thought the AEM was its own computer...as in you did not use the factory eec anylonger?

I have always heard for N/A that you want your full timing in early at around 2,500rpm or so. Some take a degree or two out after the peak trq up in the higher end like 5k+ or so IIRC. Like what grn92 posted

If it is anything like the tweecer (uses the stock eec) the factory advance rate is SLOW, and I would focus on the upper end of the load area to add timing. see what keeping it stock in non-wot will do, you may get better drivability and such as doing the global with our eecs is not so good since the mid load EGR function tables are HIGH and IMHO that is were the ping comes from in a big way when using a global adder for spark. You have control of the full table...no need to make global changes when you can focus on a specific area (WOT or drivability).

 

[Killercanary]

As I see it ... you just have to ramp it up and how gradual each
step turns out to be is dependent upon how many points you
got to work with.

I don't know how the AEM does its thing but as you know ...
with the EEC Tuner & Tweecer you got not only rpm but
load to play around with so that has not been any kind
of problem that I have been able to see.

It is a lotta fun to see what all you can do
with your tune when you have something that
makes sense to you ... isn't it

Grady

Luckily Grady, the AEM is much more straightforward than the stock EEC stuff. Here is my timing table, this is all I need to adjust... its much easier than the stock tables huh? My load is on the left and its based on my MAP sensor readings which are displayed as PSI (which is negative in my case since I'm NA), and the bottom is RPM.

I can display it in two forms and I can edit either one. Here's the table which is my current timing table:

Here it is in graph form:

Here is the same graph after I hit the high load cells with a commanded 34* of timing. The graph really shows how abrupt the change is:

Table with 34* commanded:

Graph with 34* commanded:

Do you want one yet Grady? With the help of my buddy Mike I setup my two step that is activated via my VSS and I'm now using my check engine light as a shift light!!! You can do so much with this thing it still blows my mind. You couldn't give me an eec tuner now. I have no idea how on earth I even used that thing, especially concidering I didn't have any sort of GUI interface and used only the stock software.

Thanks zenboy99, I'll give that a shot!

blksn955.o- The AEM is a complete stand alone. I only used the global when I had the stock T4MO and eec tuner in my car. I see now why that may not have been the best thing.

 

[final5-0]

Well Paul

I'm quite comfortable with the basic way EEC Tuner and Tweecer uses
load & rpm

The only difference I've seen between them is each displays opposite
when talking load.

Now I see the AEM as the same with load on the left and RPM left to right

The load displayed in psi is different but no big deal

By your changes I have gathered the greatest load is up top

I'm totally lost by seeing a spark value so high at a rpm of so low
and
You see that on every load row

Where did these elevated spark values come from Paul

btw ... I looked at the center of the table and I see values that look
to be more in line with what I'm used to seeing

We were talking about a gradual ramp up of the spark values

Seems like you could do that with something like 32@2400 which
should give you around 33@2575 for the in-between point.

Then maybe something like just gradually ramp it with 2 less for
30@2050 and 28@1700

Interesting stuff Paul

Thanks for going to the trouble of hosing around with all the
screen shots as I know that takes a bit of time

Grady

 

[WhiteDevil]

I made best power at 32 degrees from 2,500-5,000rpm then dropped to 30 from 5,000-6,000rpm

 

[blksn955.o]

Not that I am making erf shattering power or anything but I dropped 1* per load row in the timing tables. Like the top row was 32 from 2,500-4,500or so then 31 the rest of that row(IIRC the last two cells. The second from the top load row is 31* from 2,500-4,500or so and 30 the rest (IIRC the last two cells). With the third row from the top at 30* all the way from 2,500 the rest of the way across.