need to advance timing- canister hits water neck

[Blown4.6]

I have determined that my timing is WAY too retarded. It was alegedly set at 12 degrees of initial; but, the car would never start. I mean, it was an art to be able to get this thing started when cold. Nearly impossible!!

Well, today I decided to attach the vacuum advance hose to FULL VACUUM (manifold vacuum). WHen I did this, it started like it was fuel injected and idled perfectly! Uhhhh.....this tells me that the initial timing is like 10 degrees retarded (after tdc!!). Gee, I wonder why the engine is running a little hot too??

Okay, the problem is that I can't rotate the distributor any further as the vacuum canister is hitting the water inlet neck. I know there is a real pain in the ass way to deal with this by re-setting the disitrubutor. However, I really want to avoid that.

Question: can I just rig up the vacuum canister by denting the side that hits the neck or by trimming it so that I can rotate the distributor further? Any other ideas??

 

[D.Hearne]

Just jump the wires around (clockwise) on the cap, that will accomplish the same thing as pulling and resetting the distributor.

 

[Blown4.6]

Just jump the wires around (clockwise) on the cap, that will accomplish the same thing as pulling and resetting the distributor.

what do you mean by "jump the wires around clockwise"?? You don't mean move each wire to the next terminal in a clockwise fashion do you? I guess that would work and would allow me to totally start from scratch with the distributor rotation and sort of tune it by ear. By the way, how do you "tune by ear" anyway. At idle, I guess you advance until you get some "ping" and then back it off a little?

How much would the spark timing be adjusted by ONLY "jumping the wires" by one terminal? 45 degrees?

Thanks!

 

[grego37]

You should be able to pop out the dist, rotate it a tooth or two and re-time it in less than 5 minutes.
Do you have a timing light?

 

[Blown4.6]

You should be able to pop out the dist, rotate it a tooth or two and re-time it in less than 5 minutes.
Do you have a timing light?

No I don't. I'm not sure that the harmonic balancer is marked (long story). I was told that pulling the distributor can be a problem. Also, I was told that I had to get cylinder 1 to tdc first, then re-set the distributor. That's just a pain. I don't really have the tools for it either.

 

[ForceFed70]

what do you mean by "jump the wires around clockwise"?? You don't mean move each wire to the next terminal in a clockwise fashion do you? I guess that would work and would allow me to totally start from scratch with the distributor rotation and sort of tune it by ear. By the way, how do you "tune by ear" anyway. At idle, I guess you advance until you get some "ping" and then back it off a little?

How much would the spark timing be adjusted by ONLY "jumping the wires" by one terminal? 45 degrees?

Thanks!

That's exactly what he means and exactly what I did on my car when I had the same problem.

To tune by ear: Keep advancing the timing slowly... after each time, take the car for a drive. You will not notice pinging at idle unless your timing is WAY too far advanced. Usually you will 1st notice pinging when the engine is hot and you have it floored while at low RPM.

The dist will make 1 revolution (360*) for every 2 revolutions (720*) of the crank. So moving over 1 spot would advance or retard the timing (depending on which way you go) by 1/8th of 720*. Which is 90*.

 

[Blown4.6]

That's exactly what he means and exactly what I did on my car when I had the same problem.

To tune by ear: Keep advancing the timing slowly... after each time, take the car for a drive. You will not notice pinging at idle unless your timing is WAY too far advanced. Usually you will 1st notice pinging when the engine is hot and you have it floored while at low RPM.

The dist will make 1 revolution (360*) for every 2 revolutions (720*) of the crank. So moving over 1 spot would advance or retard the timing (depending on which way you go) by 1/8th of 720*. Which is 90*.

Awesome! I knew there had to be some "bubba" way to handle this! It does seem like advancing by 90 degrees may be hard to overcome by rotating the distributor backwards. Just my luck, I won't be able to advance enough now and won't be able to retard enough after jumping the wires. I'll give it my best though. If it's worked for others, I have to feel good about it.

I just can't beleive it's that simple and that I paid a tuner $2500 for a tune and a new cam!! Man am I pissed. I am absolutely certain now that my overheating problem will now go away. I never could understand how I am running a 7-blade fan (intended for RV's), a GIANT Howe Racing radiator and a shroud....yet still the tempurate would get to like 220 just cruising around without the air on. I should have known the timing was way too late!

 

[Max Power]

Um, first of all, you got ripped off. Secondly, after spending that much, bring it back and make him do it.

 

[ron67fb]

They might've done it right, except the rubber donut on your harmonic dampener slipped and is showing the wrong timing. I know mine slipped since it runs best at 20 degrees at idle according to the marks.

Jumping a wire seems a bit much especially without a timing light. I've done it by removing the distributor and jumping a tooth, but do whatever floats your boat. I prefer the tooth method because I like the "1" on the cap actually pointing to the #1 wire.

Advance until it's hard to crank (warm engine) and back off until it starts easily. Then advance until it pings under load and back off a few degrees. Leave the distributor hold-down snug but not tight so you can pull over and adjust as necessary. If you have a vacuum gauge, play with idle speed screws, idle mixture screws, and the distributor until you can get the recommended idle with the highest vacuum reading and smallest throttle opening.

Finding TDC on a balancer without marks (or the wrong marks) will mess you up even more unless you feel like pulling the valve cover, or have something to feel TDC through the spark plug hole. It sounds like you're close enough so just do the wire or tooth jump. I'd suggest you eventually find #1 TDC and install a timing mark tape on the damper, and do it right with a timing light.

 

[Blown4.6]

well, it worked. The thing is with the base timing advanced to the level where the engine started like a champ, it would tend to stumble/surge when cruising at like 2000 rpm. This seems to me to indicate that although the initial timing works, it's advancing too much under vacuum (I think stumble/surge at cruise can indicate over advanced spark)? I really can't be sure if I'm hearing "ping" or not. The thing is so loud to begin with.

Anyway, I retarded the base timing a little and the driving / cruising became VERY smooth and nice. Unfortunately, this morning I tried starting it.....it's the same old situation (nearly impossible to start....catches but you have to keep cranking and feathering the gas forever....and that's with the choke on!). Maybe I need to keep fine tuning the initial advance to find a spot where it doesn't surge at cruise and also starts. My second alternative is to set the initial advance to a point where it starts easilly and DISCONNECT the vacuum advance. This won't be ideal and should hurt mileage (also may contribute to it getting too hot); but, I'm running out of ideas.

As for getting ripped off and bringing it back to him, yes that makes sense. However, the guy isn't that close and he'll just make up some b.s. excuse why it really isn't his fault. You know how a-hole mechanics are. I'd just as soon not go through the hassle if I can fix it myself. If I can't, trust me, he'll get it back. I just hate the hassle and really don't have the time.

 

[grego37]

dont forget, when you change timing, you have to go back and re-adjust your carb again.
running too hot may indicate that your air/fuel adjustment is too lean.

 

[Blown4.6]

Solved!

Fixed! Here's what I did:

1) attach vacuum hose to FULL manifold vacuum
2) re-time the base timing to the maximum that will still idle smoothly
3) re-tune the Demon carb

I know most people say that you never, never, never should use full vacuum; but, what can I say. This motor needs maximum advance to start and idle.

Since I've done this, I've noticed the following differences:

1) Cold Starting: Easy to start with no "feathering" of the throttle...just turn the key.
2) Cold Idle: Idles strong even first thing in the AM. I can immediately put it in gear AND run the A/C. It used to stall if you didn't keep you foot in it for about 5 minutes.
3) Off Idle: no stumble whatsoever (anymore). It's smooth as can be.
4) Tempurature: the water now stays under 200, even idling in gear WITH THE A/C RUNNING!
5) WOT Performance: I have to assume that it's retarding the spark enough under WOT (zero vacuum) to be hurting WOT acceleration. I can't tell from the seat of the pants; but, you'd assume? Anyway, let's face it, 351W with stock heads and a moderate cam aren't really going to win too many road races to begin with; so, who cares if it can only turn a 15 second 1/4 instead of a 14.6?? Not me! A grandmother in a Honda Accord will still blow me away. I'm just glad this thing runs nicely again. Now I just need to get a new starter (after all the starting problems, you had to keep spinning it even after it caught or it would die).

I'm stoaked!!! It was timing all along.

 

[krash kendall]

It says right in the manual for my carb, '..full vacuum port for non-emission equipt vehicles - timed vacuum port for emission equipt..'

 

[Max Power]

Full vacuum port defeats the purpose of even using vacuum at all. You can just do the same thing mechanical.

Vacuum advance is meant to fine tune spark advance for optimum settings under certain load and throttle conditions. Running full manifold defeats that function.

In this case it works OK, because the owner can't be bothered to put the distributor in the right location, but overall, that's not the most efficient use of spark advance.

 

[yeloxr7]

LOL!!! Right on Max!!! Too many people want do do things fastest and/or easiest, not right.

 

[84convertablegt]

for future reference, finding tdc isnt as hard as people think. you rotate the crank with a small pinky finger in the number 1 hole (dont do this if its hot ) or i prefer a screwdriver until you feel the piston hit. this tells you you are basically tdc. now u are either right on or 90' out and youll know as soon as you try and start the car after restabbing the dizzy. if you are 90' out, repeat with another rev of the crank and try again. it took me and a buddy about 20 minutes to get the timing perfect on my old 84. i forgot to mark the dizzy when i pulled it

 

[krash kendall]

LOL!!! Right on Max!!! Too many people want do do things fastest and/or easiest, not right.

What gives? People who post here are constantly told to READ THE MANUAL. Now I'm actually getting ripped a new one for following the manual? The level of hypocrisy has reached a new high.

 

[84convertablegt]

What gives? People who post here are constantly told to READ THE MANUAL. Now I'm actually getting ripped a new one for following the manual? The level of hypocrisy has reached a new high.

i think it was a compliment. i agree, do it right the first time!

 

[mustangman70]

PUT AN msd BOX OR A PETRONIX OR SOMEHTING............IT will FIRE RIGHT UP IN 30 BELOw

 

[krash kendall]

i think it was a compliment. i agree, do it right the first time!

He was reiterating Max Power's dismissal of my post first referring to the manual.

Anyway......My car does run good with the current configuration, but I'll be the first to admit It could always run better. I'll forgo the manual and try the timed vacuum port this weekend and see what the results are.

I may be pleasantly surprised.