Procharger P1sc Vs. Kb 2.1

Deleted member 38176 · Oct 6, 2012

Im currently trying to decide between the P1SC and the KB 2.1. I am looking for no more than 400rwhp.

Goals:
1. (MOST IMPORTANT) Engine safety. I figure that no more than 400rwhp should be safe on the stock internals. I also live in TX where in the summer, high 90's are rare and 100+ is more common. I've heard that the dynamics of how a positive displacement blower works that it places more strain on the motor than a centri blower. True?

2. Fun DD street car. I never go to the track and probably wont in the future (I might go once or twice but thats it).

3. I currently have 4.10's. Are they too much for a KB? Ditching the 4.10's for some 3.73's or 3.55's is an option.

I'd like to hear what you guys have to say. I'm kinda leaning towards the P1SC.

Gearbanger 101 · Oct 6, 2012

Really man....you can't go wrong with either. They're both gonna have their high and low points.

KB Pro's
-Nearly instant torque
-Strong power curve
-Cool blower whine

KB Con's
-High discharge temps could compromise longevity and performance on those blistering hot days
-A lot of blower for a car with 4.10 gears
-limited power production in comparison to the Procharger at same airflow levels

Procharger Pro's
-Great horsepower maker
-lower discharge temps means safer, more repeatable power levels.
-quick 4.10 blower step up ratio so low end torque takes less of a hit than with normal centrifugals
-will be better suited to your 4.10 rear gear ratio

Procharger Con's
-Not the torque monster that the KB is
-Procharger kits have been known for weak blower brackets. Not a problem at moderate blower speed levels, but if you start really ramping up the boost, you might find yourself throwing blower belts.

Winters98GT · Oct 6, 2012

Look at the kit, not the headunit if going centri.

Twin screw blowers tend to be popular with the 4.6 crowd because of how little torque they make. The exact reason you have 4.10's in your car. Multiply that torque and improve the low end.

Those 4.10 gears will fit a centri kit well. But look at the entire kit, not just the headunit. Self contained units like prochargers are nice. You can get those in a vortech or paxton(same as vortech, they own paxton) in the smaller blowers. I ran my 1500(same size as a p1sc, 1200cfm blower), and was great. However, don't shy away from tapping the oil pan on a non self contained unit.

Also, where you live, and the heat we see, the best thing you can do for your car is get a good kit with an intercooler, and put an alky control meth kit in the car. It will do wonders to ease the stress on the motor on WOT and it isn't used until you are WOT and hit a certain boost/RPM. Basically, you can drive across the country with your meth kit and not use a single drop, and the stuff is cheap to refill.

usaf_branham · Oct 6, 2012

when i first put my kb on, i had 4.10's. it was a BLAST on the street, but I was running out of gear on the quarter mile so I switched to 3.73's... if i could do it over again, i would have kept the 4.10's, bought some decent tires, and raised the rev limiter to 6500.

before i put the stg 1 blower cams in the car, it made 390 rwhp and 435 tq on a dyno jet. with the 4.10's, when it hooked (which was rare) it was awesome.

have you looked at the tork tech kit? if i could go back and do it over, i would have gotten that kit with the tvs blower.

Deleted member 38176 · Oct 6, 2012

Winters98GT said:
Look at the kit, not the headunit if going centri.

Twin screw blowers tend to be popular with the 4.6 crowd because of how little torque they make. The exact reason you have 4.10's in your car. Multiply that torque and improve the low end.

Those 4.10 gears will fit a centri kit well. But look at the entire kit, not just the headunit. Self contained units like prochargers are nice. You can get those in a vortech or paxton(same as vortech, they own paxton) in the smaller blowers. I ran my 1500(same size as a p1sc, 1200cfm blower), and was great. However, don't shy away from tapping the oil pan on a non self contained unit.

Im only considering Procharger if I go centri due to the fact that the local shop I go to is an ATI distributor and can get the complete kit (IC, injectors, fuel pump, sc, etc) for an excellent price.

Seeing as I already get detonation every now and then on my N/A 2V, Im really concerned about it while being FI (I know detonation on FI apps is a recipe for disaster). If I went with the Procharger then I would upgrade to the 3-core IC (does anyone happen to know what the upgrade cost would be). I also like the fact that, with a centi, the motor would "essentially" be operating like an N/A motor until you hit boost whereas the KB is almost instantaneous boost and the motor would be constantly under strain.

Winters98GT said:
Also, where you live, and the heat we see, the best thing you can do for your car is get a good kit with an intercooler, and put an alky control meth kit in the car. It will do wonders to ease the stress on the motor on WOT and it isn't used until you are WOT and hit a certain boost/RPM. Basically, you can drive across the country with your meth kit and not use a single drop, and the stuff is cheap to refill.

Ohhhh, I like that. I'll have to look into that further. Is there a particular brand/setup that you would recommend?

usaf_branham said:
have you looked at the tork tech kit? if i could go back and do it over, i would have gotten that kit with the tvs blower.

I've looked at the Tork Tech kit in-depth and I just think that it's too much of a PITA to piece the kit together. If you want to do it for a lower price then you basically have to be EXTREMELY patient. I dont want to spend a year or more just piecing it together.

Winters98GT · Oct 7, 2012

I use Julio's Alky Conrol kit. He is a mustang guy, but nobody in vette world now puts blowers on their cars without a kit. My backup tuner and good buddy, owns Auto Adrenaline Performance here in Houston. They work on 90% Fords, and that is all he uses too. The Snow Performance kit is good, and if your tuner uses that, then go with it. If he doesn't care, go with the Alky kit, it's better.

You will have no detonation with meth. It's basically like having race gas under boost. Depending on how much you spray, it will raise your octane a ton. I spray 2 M15 nozzles(a lot, even when I was at low boost). Your tuner will tune your car on 93 to a safe level. Then add the meth after the tune to get the cooling and octane benefits. You can use it as a power adder, or for safety. If you tune it for safety, you will pick up 30-40hp, and if it fails(which I have yet to see), then your tune will pull timing and keep your motor safe.

Here is what meth did on my stock LS3 at 10psi. No headers, cam, nothing changed. Bone stock car. Before and after meth with an SI trim(1150cfm blower). This tune is a little more aggresive though. But you can get the idea. Look at the torque difference.

very smart move to go with Procharger if your tuner is a distributer for them.

http://www.alkycontrol.com/

sneaky98gt · Oct 7, 2012

Nightfire said:
I also like the fact that, with a centi, the motor would "essentially" be operating like an N/A motor until you hit boost whereas the KB is almost instantaneous boost and the motor would be constantly under strain.

Not true. There is a vacuum-operated bypass valve on PD blowers that allows the air to recirculate in the blower. The extra strain on the motor from turning a free-rolling supercharger (read: not making any boost) is negligible.

Ohhhh, I like that. I'll have to look into that further. Is there a particular brand/setup that you would recommend?

http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems....r-Methanol-Injection-System/product_info.html

Best in the market.

And the folks there know what they're talking about, too. I had a lengthy phone conversation with them about my setup, and was told by AIS that I'd need at least 12 GPH to cool my setup down. Thinking that sounded a bit ridiculous, I called Snow Performance for their opinion. They told me that a single 3-4 GPH nozzle would easily cool my setup. Because my tuner (at the time) also said 3-4 GPH, I went with that. Well.......a 4 GPH nozzle barely touched my IATs, and made no difference in track times (I also lost a piston doing it this way...). 14 GPH brought my IATs down by 100+ degrees and I picked up 7 mph in the 1/4 on a very safe tune. AIS was right after all.

Also, if you're going intercooled anyway, it isn't really necessary. You can make 375 rwhp without meth on a very safe tune, or you can make 400 rwhp with meth on a safe tune. It's just slightly more complex and requires additional work (filling the tank, making sure nozzle(s) aren't clogged up periodically, etc.), and a more competent tuner/tune. Your choice. Just make DANG sure the meth is tuned properly (I can explain how if you want).

I've looked at the Tork Tech kit in-depth and I just think that it's too much of a PITA to piece the kit together. If you want to do it for a lower price then you basically have to be EXTREMELY patient. I dont want to spend a year or more just piecing it together.

I think he's talking about the whole Tork Tech kit with the TVS blower, which is a complete, bolt-together kit. If I had a 2-valve and was looking for a complete, bolt-on kit, that's what I'd recommend as well. These new Magnusun blowers are within a percent or two as efficient as a twin-screw at lower boost levels (<15-16 psi), and make more torque lower in the RPM. That is absolutely how I'd do it if I was looking to spend $5-6k.

My advice between your two original post options: Kenne Bell. If you can't hook it, you can always put taller gears in (3.73s is the tallest I'd go). Being that you have an automatic (IIRC), hooking it in 1st will be quite a bit easier than with a 5-speed.

Gearbanger 101 · Oct 7, 2012

I often wondered if you could get away with running regular 87-octane on a blower car with meth injection? The car running around under vacuum shouldn't need any additional octane than any other N/A car. Every tuner I spoke with recommends against it, but none will come right out and say why? Are the current water/meth kits on the market not fast reacting, or accurate enough?

Winters98GT · Oct 7, 2012

Gearbanger 101 said:
I often wondered if you could get away with running regular 87-octane on a blower car with meth injection? The car running around under vacuum shouldn't need any additional octane than any other N/A car. Every tuner I spoke with recommends against it, but none will come right out and say why? Are the current water/meth kits on the market not fast reacting, or accurate enough?

Yep, My "buddy" makes 940rwhp on a 402 with 87 octane and meth injection. F1A procharger. I did lay the smack down on him bad, 60-170. d98gt was trailing and witnessed it.

Mattstang04 · Oct 7, 2012

I pondered this very question for years. I knew I was going to supercharge my car the day I bought it. However, I wasnt able to pull it off until the car had almost 100xxx miles on it. I wanted to be safe so I went with the P1SC with the 3 core intercooler. The tuner created 2 tunes when he dynoed it. 1 tune is for year round use and is perfectly safe in most weather conditions. The other tune is strictly for colder temperatures. Theres about a 20 hp difference between the 2.

Procharger is a great unit, not that KB isnt, but I didnt like the idea of not having an intercooler. With my mileage, the constant strain and excess heat of the KB was no longer an comfortable option. A centri is easier on your engine unless you're constantly in the boost.

I hate the idea of undoing a mod, such as your 4.10s. Losing money, on redoing mods is dissappointing. Centri's are awesome with 4.10s.

My 2 cents is keep the money from a gear swap, stick with 4.10s and get a centri. My ProChargers been awesome. Do note that ProChargers tend to leak. Mine does anyway. Not terrible but you gota watch them.

usaf_branham · Oct 7, 2012

sneaky98gt said:
Not true. There is a vacuum-operated bypass valve on PD blowers that allows the air to recirculate in the blower. The extra strain on the motor from turning a free-rolling supercharger (read: not making any boost) is negligible.

http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems....r-Methanol-Injection-System/product_info.html

Best in the market.

And the folks there know what they're talking about, too. I had a lengthy phone conversation with them about my setup, and was told by AIS that I'd need at least 12 GPH to cool my setup down. Thinking that sounded a bit ridiculous, I called Snow Performance for their opinion. They told me that a single 3-4 GPH nozzle would easily cool my setup. Because my tuner (at the time) also said 3-4 GPH, I went with that. Well.......a 4 GPH nozzle barely touched my IATs, and made no difference in track times (I also lost a piston doing it this way...). 14 GPH brought my IATs down by 100+ degrees and I picked up 7 mph in the 1/4 on a very safe tune. AIS was right after all.

Also, if you're going intercooled anyway, it isn't really necessary. You can make 375 rwhp without meth on a very safe tune, or you can make 400 rwhp with meth on a safe tune. It's just slightly more complex and requires additional work (filling the tank, making sure nozzle(s) aren't clogged up periodically, etc.), and a more competent tuner/tune. Your choice. Just make DANG sure the meth is tuned properly (I can explain how if you want).

I think he's talking about the whole Tork Tech kit with the TVS blower, which is a complete, bolt-together kit. If I had a 2-valve and was looking for a complete, bolt-on kit, that's what I'd recommend as well. These new Magnusun blowers are within a percent or two as efficient as a twin-screw at lower boost levels (<15-16 psi), and make more torque lower in the RPM. That is absolutely how I'd do it if I was looking to spend $5-6k.

My advice between your two original post options: Kenne Bell. If you can't hook it, you can always put taller gears in (3.73s is the tallest I'd go). Being that you have an automatic (IIRC), hooking it in 1st will be quite a bit easier than with a 5-speed.

Sneaky hit the nail on the head. I was talking about the Tork Tech TVS blower kit. Everything is there. IMHO dollar for dollar, it is superior to the kb 2.1 kit. Unfortunately, i did not know much about it when I bought my 2.1 intercooled kb kit... otherwise that is what you would see in my sig.

Let me put it to you this way. There is a guy on the forums here, bakos, who had the Tork Tech kit installed on his car from the same shop who dyno tuned mine (the first time). Bako's (if your still on here, correct me if im wrong) he was making 10psi through their kit. Kyle told me he dyno'd at 420+ rwhp with 15* of timing. I installed the kb 2.1 intercooled kit w/9psi pulley (it made 10psi), and I had bbk lt's, catted x-pipe, and flowmasters w/bbk cai and i only managed 390 when it was about 70* outside.

Now, let me tell you, I am extremely happy with the 2.1... It is a blast to drive, and it was WAY more fun with 4.10's. I did my own install, it was fairly straight forward (with the exception of the directions to wire in the BAP, but i figured it out). I think it was an extremely fun investment, and I am still considering adding a meth kit, mainly so I can run more than 15* of timing 'safely' since I can not afford to purchase a new shortblock.

The down fall to the tork teck is that you need to get a clearanced hood. The GT hood is too small for the snout. BUT, they come with necessary fuel upgrades, bigger TB, new MAF, bigger injectors (than kb's 36 lbers) etc. I had to pony up $ for a MAFia, and later an svt focus pump etc. I still can squeek more power out of mine with a 75mm tb, lightning maf, and some 60 lb injectors...

Also, look at the fact that the Tork Teck uses a seperate belt from SC pulley to the crank pulley. I have already chewed up the gates belt from kenne bell, and switched to the gatorback which by the way netted me almost 1 full psi over the gates belt (and according to KB, the gates is the 'best' you can get for their kit).

Dont get me wrong, the 9spi intercooled KB kit rocks... the directions are nearly impeccable, and it produces great results... I just think that $ for $ the Tork Teck is superior for many different reasons, including the fact that if you get the TVS upgrade, you have more potential later if you do decide to go forged... and trust me when I say that this an addiction and that you WILL get used to the power quick.

On another note... regardless of what KB tells you, you need to get it dyno tuned, I watched my MAF peg during the dyno run, and I was assured that I would not need a MAFia or 90MM lightning maf from KB. Dont run a canned tune, that is just asking for trouble.

sneaky98gt · Oct 8, 2012

Mattstang04 said:
A centri is easier on your engine unless you're constantly in the boost.

Once again: this is NOT true. I can take the belt off, manually hold the bypass valve open on my Eaton, and easily spin the blower. I bet it takes less than 2 horsepower to turn it with the bypass open.

I kinda wonder where people get this idea from. I hear it all the time, and there isn't a hint of backing behind that statement.

I hate the idea of undoing a mod, such as your 4.10s. Losing money, on redoing mods is dissappointing. Centri's are awesome with 4.10s.

My 2 cents is keep the money from a gear swap, stick with 4.10s and get a centri.

I agree with the re-doing mods part, but I honestly think he'll be fine with the 4.10s. To get an idea of where he'd be at, do the math: since he has an automatic, his 1st gearing would be 2.84 x 4.10, which equals 11.644 total. Now take a 5-speed car on 3.73s: 3.38 x 3.73 equals 12.607 total. So he doesn't have nearly as much torque multiplication as it initially sounds, and being an automatic, the torque would come on much smoother anyway.

Now, is gonna hold on some 245 all-year-round tires? Nope. Not even close. But it isn't with a centri either, or with 3.73s.

The only issue with 4.10s is trap speed at the track. A 400 rwhp car should trap close to 120 mph, and to do that with 4.10s would require almost 6500 rpm at the motor.

usaf_branham said:
I think it was an extremely fun investment, and I am still considering adding a meth kit, mainly so I can run more than 15* of timing 'safely' since I can not afford to purchase a new shortblock.

Hehehehe......I'm running 24 degrees non-intercooled. Meth is some good stuff.

On another note... regardless of what KB tells you, you need to get it dyno tuned, I watched my MAF peg during the dyno run, and I was assured that I would not need a MAFia or 90MM lightning maf from KB. Dont run a canned tune, that is just asking for trouble.

+1.

As a general rule of thumb, don't believe anything Kenne Bell has to say. I've read though most everything on their website, and while there is some useful relevant info on there, some stuff is downright hilarious. Not sure if it's still there, but there used to be a diagram which said 200 degree air plus 200 degree air = 400 degree air! Holy chit! They just solved all of the world's energy problems!

Deleted member 38176 · Oct 14, 2012

KI apologize if this is a stupid question (I feel like it might be), but concerning engine safety, would it be a better idea run a higher amount of boost (say 10-12psi) and then tune it down (ie. retard the timing) to get around 390-400rwhp?

usaf_branham · Oct 14, 2012

no. if you retard the timing too much it will burn up your exhaust valves (or so i have been told). my kb makes 10-11 psi w/ 9 lb pulley all day long, i havent had any problems yet.

72 fastback · Oct 16, 2012

usaf_branham said:
Sneaky hit the nail on the head. I was talking about the Tork Tech TVS blower kit. Everything is there. IMHO dollar for dollar, it is superior to the kb 2.1 kit. Unfortunately, i did not know much about it when I bought my 2.1 intercooled kb kit... otherwise that is what you would see in my sig.

Let me put it to you this way. There is a guy on the forums here, bakos, who had the Tork Tech kit installed on his car from the same shop who dyno tuned mine (the first time). Bako's (if your still on here, correct me if im wrong) he was making 10psi through their kit. Kyle told me he dyno'd at 420+ rwhp with 15* of timing. I installed the kb 2.1 intercooled kit w/9psi pulley (it made 10psi), and I had bbk lt's, catted x-pipe, and flowmasters w/bbk cai and i only managed 390 when it was about 70* outside.

Now, let me tell you, I am extremely happy with the 2.1... It is a blast to drive, and it was WAY more fun with 4.10's. I did my own install, it was fairly straight forward (with the exception of the directions to wire in the BAP, but i figured it out). I think it was an extremely fun investment, and I am still considering adding a meth kit, mainly so I can run more than 15* of timing 'safely' since I can not afford to purchase a new shortblock.

The down fall to the tork teck is that you need to get a clearanced hood. The GT hood is too small for the snout. BUT, they come with necessary fuel upgrades, bigger TB, new MAF, bigger injectors (than kb's 36 lbers) etc. I had to pony up $ for a MAFia, and later an svt focus pump etc. I still can squeek more power out of mine with a 75mm tb, lightning maf, and some 60 lb injectors...

Also, look at the fact that the Tork Teck uses a seperate belt from SC pulley to the crank pulley. I have already chewed up the gates belt from kenne bell, and switched to the gatorback which by the way netted me almost 1 full psi over the gates belt (and according to KB, the gates is the 'best' you can get for their kit).

Dont get me wrong, the 9spi intercooled KB kit rocks... the directions are nearly impeccable, and it produces great results... I just think that $ for $ the Tork Teck is superior for many different reasons, including the fact that if you get the TVS upgrade, you have more potential later if you do decide to go forged... and trust me when I say that this an addiction and that you WILL get used to the power quick.

On another note... regardless of what KB tells you, you need to get it dyno tuned, I watched my MAF peg during the dyno run, and I was assured that I would not need a MAFia or 90MM lightning maf from KB. Dont run a canned tune, that is just asking for trouble.

What was the part# for the gatorback belt. I am using a kb intercooled 9psi kit myself with their tune. The shop must have had kb burn three chips for it before he was threw. I may bring it somewhere for a custom tune when I am ready to spent some more cash on her.

usaf_branham · Oct 16, 2012

I think the KB kit uses the gates green stripe 107 in belt. I cant remember off the top of my head. I went to summit and got the 6 rib 107 in gatorback belt, not sure what the part number is. It added 1 psi and has a cool whirring sound.

SRT Handz · Oct 16, 2012

I was in the same position as you..... I wanted a supercharger and it was gonna be either the Kenne Bell 2.1 Innercooled kit or the Procharger P1SC with front mount innercooler.

It took me almost 9 months to decide. I had the cash, just was being picky.

When it comes down to the cost, they are pretty much both the same price from the 3 core innercooled procharger and the innercooled Kenne Bell.

I ended up picking the Kenne Bell 2.1 for a few reasons.... I will say why...

Reason I DIDNT get the procharger.
-I didnt wanna deal with removing the front bumper and cutting stuff to make the FMIC fit. You can to trim stuff, I didnt wanna do that.
-You gotta pull the entire supercharger off to replace the belt..... and thats a Pain in the Ass.
- Still gotta buy fuel parts
-To get the same power as the kenne bell, i would have had to run a Power-Pipe and an aftermarket plenum.

Reasons I Picked the Kenne Bell 2.1 Intercooled
- Kenne Bell is 40 mins from my house so I didnt have to pay shipping
- I got kenne bell to knock off $500 cause I said I was in the military.
- Kenne bell IMO is a cleaner Install
- Kenne bell came with EVERYTHING (I added an aviator Fuel pump cause i didnt trust the stock pump.
-Kenne Bell didnt charge me for the Big Air Upgrade and they gave me the AccuFab 75mm T/B and LMAF for free *Thanks so much!!*

I was gonna get the Tork Tech kit, but there is so much BS'ing around to get the Tork Tech kit running, plus it doesnt clear the stock hood so after you buy the tork tech kit, the blower, fuel system, and buy a new hood and get it painted, its more than the Kenne Bell. The best thing about the Kenne Bell is that is clears the stock hood.

In My opinion, the Kenne Bell was WELL worth it. It looks OEM. The fitment is DEAD ON. The Kenne Bell uses a Bypass Valve so you only boost when you press the gas pedal more because its runs off vacuum. I can drive around all day not boosting anything. when i wanna boost, I press the gas and the power is there. Instantly.

Twin screw IMO blows Centri blowers out of the water. The smooth power delivery and the boost is always there when i want it. Don't believe all this B/S about "Twin Screw and Roots blower Heat soak and get hot". Thats a load of BS from people that dont know what they are talking about. I drove my car all years round and have no problem with heat soak. Car always boost 10-11PSI on a 9PSI pulley. I drive my car is 100 degree temps with A/C pumping and always get full power. Its amazing.

Just for the record, I dyno'd 407rwhp/420rwtq.

txredgt · Oct 16, 2012

SRT Handz all your engine bay needs is the COP conversion. Plug wires are neat but they clutter up the engine bay and distract from that blower awesomeness.

SRT Handz · Oct 16, 2012

txredgt said:
SRT Handz all your engine bay needs is the COP conversion. Plug wires are neat but they clutter up the engine bay and distract from that blower awesomeness.

I am keeping the plug wires. Cheaper to maintain if anything goes wrong. COP's are WAY too expensive when one starts acting up. I have a whole backup sparkplug wires and coils. Thats why NASCAR uses Plug Wires cause they are tested true.

txredgt · Oct 16, 2012

SRT Handz said:
I am keeping the plug wires. Cheaper to maintain if anything goes wrong. COP's are WAY too expensive when one starts acting up. I have a whole backup sparkplug wires and coils. Thats why NASCAR uses Plug Wires cause they are tested true.

True, but the COP does clean up the engine bay 100% more than plug wires. I understand wanting to keep them since its the last years of the spark plug wires in mustangs.

Procharger P1sc Vs. Kb 2.1

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