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Cheapskate207
The left one hangs a little lower
Maybe a turbo kit like an on3 would be cheaper. I can’t speak to it as I have no experience. It seems they’re more work and harder to get dialed in.
85GTStangGuy
Advanced Member
So maybe I got it wrong, here is the screen shotI thought those numbers were final total power numbers, NOT how much it adds. Or am I way off base?
Cheapskate207
The left one hangs a little lower
Not touching the existing motor and adding forced induction (you excluded NOS) or building a stroker will require more fuel. The forced induction will work with what you have but a 331 or 347 will require more induction (list of possible items: ported upper and lower by TMoss (being you have an Explorer upper and lower), heads (suggestion would be AFE Renegades), and cam). I cannot remember what mass air meter, injectors, and throttle body you already have.
I am not sure what all building a stroker would cost but you get the idea. My 331 makes right at 370 rwhp going through the T5 on drag radials. I am betting with the new fuel system and reworked CAI and the MSPNP it will make more but you get the idea. I have quite a bit tied up in the motor and supporting parts.
I will say if your current 302 is heathy just put a Vortech on it and be done with it.
I am not sure what all building a stroker would cost but you get the idea. My 331 makes right at 370 rwhp going through the T5 on drag radials. I am betting with the new fuel system and reworked CAI and the MSPNP it will make more but you get the idea. I have quite a bit tied up in the motor and supporting parts.
I will say if your current 302 is heathy just put a Vortech on it and be done with it.
I think for straight HP and cheapest, the on3 is the best way to go. The Vortech is prolly the better solution, but just looking through prices its at least twice as much.
My current thought is long term I will go stroker. The benefit to this route is I think I can keep the same heads, intakes, TB. I will need to redo all the head work, but I like the idea of staying NA and not forced induction. Stroker kits will cost about the same as the turbo kit.
So my brain right now is pretending that I will go the stroker route. If I assume this is the case, Im not going to tear apart those heads anytime soon with all the work I just did. Thinking it through, i will prolly want to wait min 2 years, prolly 3 before I take any of that head work apart. Fingers crossed of course, and any bad event could change this entire plan.
Based on the above assumption though, what work /can/ I do today to prepare for my destination of a stroked 302? Here is my working list, in priority order, please chime in with your peanut gallery opinions:
My current thought is long term I will go stroker. The benefit to this route is I think I can keep the same heads, intakes, TB. I will need to redo all the head work, but I like the idea of staying NA and not forced induction. Stroker kits will cost about the same as the turbo kit.
So my brain right now is pretending that I will go the stroker route. If I assume this is the case, Im not going to tear apart those heads anytime soon with all the work I just did. Thinking it through, i will prolly want to wait min 2 years, prolly 3 before I take any of that head work apart. Fingers crossed of course, and any bad event could change this entire plan.
Based on the above assumption though, what work /can/ I do today to prepare for my destination of a stroked 302? Here is my working list, in priority order, please chime in with your peanut gallery opinions:
- Long tube headers
- 3.73 gears
- Cam
- 1.6 roller rockers
- Other exhaust piping worth it?
- Clutch kit worth it?
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Focus on what you want to build power wise. This is what I would suggest if you are going to maximize your combo but again you need to have a goal and build around that goal. To me the cam is the brains of the operation and it basically tells the other parts what to do. Those parts need to be sufficient to support what the cam is trying to do.
Lets just get this out of the way, the heads you have will kill a N/A 331 or 347 as they were never meant to move that much air. My suggestion would be to start stock piling the parts to build what you want while you are driving the car which means finding the block that you will build the motor with.
Induction
You will want a good air filter than can flow enough air for what you are building. You can figure the maximum air flow rate and then visit air filter websites and they typically list the flow rate of a given filter. I would suggest a minimum of an 80mm mass air meter (if you stay mass air) and a minimum of a good (read Acufab) throttle body. Piping diameter from the filter to the throttle body will need to be a minimum of 3.5" with some fittings and good clamps. The upper and lower intakes would need to be sent to TMoss for some work. Again, I am going to suggest the AFR Renegade heads as bang for the buck they are pretty damn good. You will need rocker arms and I am a fan of Scorpion and Harland Sharp bu there are others, IMO you would want a custom grind cam but you can definitely work with Comp Cams or the like and see if one of their off the shelf cams will get you where you want to be. You will most likely need push rods but those are figured out when assembling the motor.
Short Block
I would not recommend more than 11:1 on pump gas. Realize that a stock roller block is on average good for 500 fwhp before the mains start walking around which is what mostly kills them. A main girdle will not stop this but below this level they seem to help. I said seem as there is all kinds of back an forth on this but I do have one on both cars. Get a good rotating assembly like Scat, Eagle, Coast High Performance with flat top pistons that have reliefs that will clear a minimum of 2.05 intake valves, There are other manufacturers of rotating assemblies but I just grabbed the ones I am familiar with. Get a good harmonic balancer like a Romac, Fluiddamper, FMS, etc. and for the imbalance of the rotating assembly (most likely 28 oz). Ring packs are another topic of debate and some others on here can probably recommend some as I just go with what my engine builder tells me. Get a good oil pump and you do not want a high volume one as there is no need. My engine builder works them over and sets the pressure output. Get an ARP oil pump shaft as its cheap insurance. Stud the mains, heads, rockers, valve covers and intakes. Rods should come with good fasteners so no worries there. If you run a main girdle the main caps typically have to be machined and you have to get main girdle specific studs.
Exhaust
Headers are another topic of varying opinions but long tubes will build more power. Their down side is head soaking the starter (there are ways around that) and just in general being a pain to install and remove. Slip tube style help with this but they will have small leaks at the collector. 2.5" is a minimum and really 3" will make a difference. At some point I will be moving to 3" but I have been putting it off as it will take custom tail pipes to get around the torque arm and panhard bar. My buddy 86 with a 408 picked up three tenths at the track going from 3" to 4" from the Cooks headers to the turn downs. That is a lot more motor than you are wanting to build but its a good example of exhaust restriction.
Fuel System
I would say a minimum of a 255 lph pump and ditch the stock lines between the hanger to the fuel rails. This is just me and I am sure others will chime in on how they are making in excess of 500 rwhp on all the stock stuff. My experience has been different so do some research and by all means listen to others that have the real world experience as well as there is more than one way to do this.
Ignition
Stock distributor will work fine and probably one of the best out there when staying with the stock ECU. You should also look at good plug wires and again lots of opinions out there. I run the Motorsport 9mm wires and they work great for me but lots of options. Run a good plug like an Autolite and in the correct heat range. The stock ignition is pretty good but I run MSD boxes and again opions will vary. Aftermarket ECU's, Crank triggers and such are another level and at that point you maight as well go coil over plug or COP but hold on to your wallet. That can be something you do after you get it running and want to self tune.
Tuning
Stock ECU means you will need a chip and I would recommend a dyno tune. Aftermarket ECU's are getting more and more user friendly but if you do not understand all that stuff find someone that does and have them teach you. The stock ECU's are like a mid 90's computer processor wise versus the new ECU's which are a super computer compared to the stock stuff so you can do a lot more with them.
Drive Line
You are going to need a good SFI flywheel and a good clutch set if which both will be needed to balance the rotating assembly. The life span of your T5 behind this much hp with good tires could be a day or years. I would sell it and get a T56 or TKX. This will suck money wise but it won't break either. I will eventually head down the T56 route but that's a different story. Get a good drive shaft i.e. stock DS balanced and new u-joints at a minimum. Adjustable control arms so Maximum Motorsports. Good springs and dampers will make the control arms work even better.
Remember, a motor is just a big air pump so you have to get the air in and get it out and have enough fuel to burn and a good spark to light it off. From ther you have to get it to the ground unless you just want to impress everyone with smokey burunouts but I will say I am fan of a good version of a John Force burn out.
I am pretty sure I have wasted enough of your time with all of this but I will say again that you need to listen to some of the guys on here as they have waaaay more experience than I do. Can you build a 331 or 347 with the GT40 heads? You sure can but you will make GT40 head power so again have a plan and build to it.
This is just a hobby for me so if I blow something up then the car sits, I cry over dead presidents, drink a few beverages and then figure out how I am going to get it running again i.e. rob a bank.
Lets just get this out of the way, the heads you have will kill a N/A 331 or 347 as they were never meant to move that much air. My suggestion would be to start stock piling the parts to build what you want while you are driving the car which means finding the block that you will build the motor with.
Induction
You will want a good air filter than can flow enough air for what you are building. You can figure the maximum air flow rate and then visit air filter websites and they typically list the flow rate of a given filter. I would suggest a minimum of an 80mm mass air meter (if you stay mass air) and a minimum of a good (read Acufab) throttle body. Piping diameter from the filter to the throttle body will need to be a minimum of 3.5" with some fittings and good clamps. The upper and lower intakes would need to be sent to TMoss for some work. Again, I am going to suggest the AFR Renegade heads as bang for the buck they are pretty damn good. You will need rocker arms and I am a fan of Scorpion and Harland Sharp bu there are others, IMO you would want a custom grind cam but you can definitely work with Comp Cams or the like and see if one of their off the shelf cams will get you where you want to be. You will most likely need push rods but those are figured out when assembling the motor.
Short Block
I would not recommend more than 11:1 on pump gas. Realize that a stock roller block is on average good for 500 fwhp before the mains start walking around which is what mostly kills them. A main girdle will not stop this but below this level they seem to help. I said seem as there is all kinds of back an forth on this but I do have one on both cars. Get a good rotating assembly like Scat, Eagle, Coast High Performance with flat top pistons that have reliefs that will clear a minimum of 2.05 intake valves, There are other manufacturers of rotating assemblies but I just grabbed the ones I am familiar with. Get a good harmonic balancer like a Romac, Fluiddamper, FMS, etc. and for the imbalance of the rotating assembly (most likely 28 oz). Ring packs are another topic of debate and some others on here can probably recommend some as I just go with what my engine builder tells me. Get a good oil pump and you do not want a high volume one as there is no need. My engine builder works them over and sets the pressure output. Get an ARP oil pump shaft as its cheap insurance. Stud the mains, heads, rockers, valve covers and intakes. Rods should come with good fasteners so no worries there. If you run a main girdle the main caps typically have to be machined and you have to get main girdle specific studs.
Exhaust
Headers are another topic of varying opinions but long tubes will build more power. Their down side is head soaking the starter (there are ways around that) and just in general being a pain to install and remove. Slip tube style help with this but they will have small leaks at the collector. 2.5" is a minimum and really 3" will make a difference. At some point I will be moving to 3" but I have been putting it off as it will take custom tail pipes to get around the torque arm and panhard bar. My buddy 86 with a 408 picked up three tenths at the track going from 3" to 4" from the Cooks headers to the turn downs. That is a lot more motor than you are wanting to build but its a good example of exhaust restriction.
Fuel System
I would say a minimum of a 255 lph pump and ditch the stock lines between the hanger to the fuel rails. This is just me and I am sure others will chime in on how they are making in excess of 500 rwhp on all the stock stuff. My experience has been different so do some research and by all means listen to others that have the real world experience as well as there is more than one way to do this.
Ignition
Stock distributor will work fine and probably one of the best out there when staying with the stock ECU. You should also look at good plug wires and again lots of opinions out there. I run the Motorsport 9mm wires and they work great for me but lots of options. Run a good plug like an Autolite and in the correct heat range. The stock ignition is pretty good but I run MSD boxes and again opions will vary. Aftermarket ECU's, Crank triggers and such are another level and at that point you maight as well go coil over plug or COP but hold on to your wallet. That can be something you do after you get it running and want to self tune.
Tuning
Stock ECU means you will need a chip and I would recommend a dyno tune. Aftermarket ECU's are getting more and more user friendly but if you do not understand all that stuff find someone that does and have them teach you. The stock ECU's are like a mid 90's computer processor wise versus the new ECU's which are a super computer compared to the stock stuff so you can do a lot more with them.
Drive Line
You are going to need a good SFI flywheel and a good clutch set if which both will be needed to balance the rotating assembly. The life span of your T5 behind this much hp with good tires could be a day or years. I would sell it and get a T56 or TKX. This will suck money wise but it won't break either. I will eventually head down the T56 route but that's a different story. Get a good drive shaft i.e. stock DS balanced and new u-joints at a minimum. Adjustable control arms so Maximum Motorsports. Good springs and dampers will make the control arms work even better.
Remember, a motor is just a big air pump so you have to get the air in and get it out and have enough fuel to burn and a good spark to light it off. From ther you have to get it to the ground unless you just want to impress everyone with smokey burunouts but I will say I am fan of a good version of a John Force burn out.
I am pretty sure I have wasted enough of your time with all of this but I will say again that you need to listen to some of the guys on here as they have waaaay more experience than I do. Can you build a 331 or 347 with the GT40 heads? You sure can but you will make GT40 head power so again have a plan and build to it.
This is just a hobby for me so if I blow something up then the car sits, I cry over dead presidents, drink a few beverages and then figure out how I am going to get it running again i.e. rob a bank.
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So, let’s start with the exhale. I’m hoping it’s something easier to decide on based on it will be helpful regardless of the final power plant build out.
Current destination: 400rwhp
Current assumptions: naturally aspirated (NA) existing 302 block, T5 transmission.
Long tube headers will produce more power but they are annoying when you want to do certain jobs, like a starter. The implication here is you may need to remove the headers to make more room.
My answer: I do not /plan/ on doing many jobs, especially big ones. My hope would be one a year. Unless bad things happen I have all winter (in New England that’s like 9 months of the year!!) to take jobs slow. Thus I think long tubes will work for me.
Anything I’m missing on that?
Diameter: my reading is that 2.5-3” will work. Sure I could go bigger, but if my goal is 400rwhp what is really necessary?
Sound: I would love the best sounding car, sure. That said I don’t think I have the energy to fiddle with setups to figure out the perfect one. I think from a sound perspective the loping cam sound will be more meaningful to me.
So for exhaust, I'm looking for the best performing system.
For a legal perspective, what can/can’t I do with my exhaust?
Current destination: 400rwhp
Current assumptions: naturally aspirated (NA) existing 302 block, T5 transmission.
Long tube headers will produce more power but they are annoying when you want to do certain jobs, like a starter. The implication here is you may need to remove the headers to make more room.
My answer: I do not /plan/ on doing many jobs, especially big ones. My hope would be one a year. Unless bad things happen I have all winter (in New England that’s like 9 months of the year!!) to take jobs slow. Thus I think long tubes will work for me.
Anything I’m missing on that?
Diameter: my reading is that 2.5-3” will work. Sure I could go bigger, but if my goal is 400rwhp what is really necessary?
Sound: I would love the best sounding car, sure. That said I don’t think I have the energy to fiddle with setups to figure out the perfect one. I think from a sound perspective the loping cam sound will be more meaningful to me.
So for exhaust, I'm looking for the best performing system.
For a legal perspective, what can/can’t I do with my exhaust?
Not missing anything on the long tubes just making sure you understood the "issues" with having them.
I do not know your emissions requirements up there so my suggestion would be to run that to ground. Can you build 400 rwhp on 1/5/8" primary headers (shorties or long tubes) and a 2.5" system? You can but if you are starting from scratch on the exhaust then why not go 1-3/4" primary headers and a full 3" system and it will sound better IMO.
400 rwhp...keep the motor you have and find a bare block to start your build one. The heads on your current motor are just not what you want to build on. This is a start from scratch deal and you need to seek the advise of a good engine builder that has experience with ford small block strokers. Look at some of the long blocks that are out there and realize that to make 400 rwhp you are going to need at least 475 fwhp. My 331 made 450ish fwhp (on a carburetor) and I ended up with 370ish rwhp (injected). Another option is to just say to heck with a 8.2 deck motor and move up to a 9.5 deck motor and build a 393 or 408 inch stroker but the T5 will die at some point.
Do not base the sound of the car on a "lumpy" cam. Compression will pay a bigger part in that as well as what muffler design you choose. The cam needs to be designed or chosen based on the goals. Do not be afraid of going with a solid roller as some will say you have to adjust them all the time but that is complete BS. Set them and lock them down. Check it once or twice a year depending on how hard you are on the car.
I do not know your emissions requirements up there so my suggestion would be to run that to ground. Can you build 400 rwhp on 1/5/8" primary headers (shorties or long tubes) and a 2.5" system? You can but if you are starting from scratch on the exhaust then why not go 1-3/4" primary headers and a full 3" system and it will sound better IMO.
400 rwhp...keep the motor you have and find a bare block to start your build one. The heads on your current motor are just not what you want to build on. This is a start from scratch deal and you need to seek the advise of a good engine builder that has experience with ford small block strokers. Look at some of the long blocks that are out there and realize that to make 400 rwhp you are going to need at least 475 fwhp. My 331 made 450ish fwhp (on a carburetor) and I ended up with 370ish rwhp (injected). Another option is to just say to heck with a 8.2 deck motor and move up to a 9.5 deck motor and build a 393 or 408 inch stroker but the T5 will die at some point.
Do not base the sound of the car on a "lumpy" cam. Compression will pay a bigger part in that as well as what muffler design you choose. The cam needs to be designed or chosen based on the goals. Do not be afraid of going with a solid roller as some will say you have to adjust them all the time but that is complete BS. Set them and lock them down. Check it once or twice a year depending on how hard you are on the car.
85GTStangGuy
Advanced Member
Assuming you're going to actually be using that est. 460-475 fwhp, I would budget in a new transmission also.
Unless you really want the thrill (and time spent/headaches) of the chase, why not just buy a built stroker motor. While this one won't give you 400 rwhp (probably closer to 350ish), it would still be hella fun in a Foxbody. And, it's an all-new, warrantied, better-than-stock block package of proven-to-work-together parts. Just putting ideas in your head....
Ford SB Compatible 347 c.i. Engine - 415 HP - Base Dressed - Rear Sump - Fuel Injected
BluePrint Engines 302 c.i. small block Ford style crate engine - longblock. Includes 30 month / 50,000 warranty & BPE Dyno Promise. Part #: BP3479RCTF
blueprintengines.com
(Could also save a grand on that motor by going carbed, in lieu of EFI.)
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Cheapskate207
The left one hangs a little lower
Building a motor seems like a headache to me unless you need to or want to.
400hp can be acheived many different ways. Cheap, expensive; simple or extensive. If your motor is worn out it would only make sense to rebuild. I know you just put heads on it though, so my question is why? All the money and work to just swap setup a a few years later?
400+ hp has been done a million times with gt40s and boost. At this power level I don’t think exhaust is going to matter much. Choose what sounds good to you. Sure you could go with bigger pipe but it’s just gonna cost more and be more difficult to fit.
I’d run the t5 until you have issues. But depending on tires and driving habits that may be never. Again, plenty of people running 400+ with T5’s.
You asked the cheapest way to make 400 hp and now we’re talking about building a new car here lol.
400hp can be acheived many different ways. Cheap, expensive; simple or extensive. If your motor is worn out it would only make sense to rebuild. I know you just put heads on it though, so my question is why? All the money and work to just swap setup a a few years later?
400+ hp has been done a million times with gt40s and boost. At this power level I don’t think exhaust is going to matter much. Choose what sounds good to you. Sure you could go with bigger pipe but it’s just gonna cost more and be more difficult to fit.
I’d run the t5 until you have issues. But depending on tires and driving habits that may be never. Again, plenty of people running 400+ with T5’s.
You asked the cheapest way to make 400 hp and now we’re talking about building a new car here lol.
85GTStangGuy
Advanced Member
Remember, he wanted 400 rwhp. So he's gonna need a 460-475 hp motor. That's pushing a stock block motor pretty good. Sure, it can certainly be done. And he wants to stay NA too. Other than his block, I could see every other component being changed.
Edit - I may have exaggerated a lil bit on the "every" component thing. In hindsight, he can keep his dipstick and distributor holddown.
Edit - I may have exaggerated a lil bit on the "every" component thing. In hindsight, he can keep his dipstick and distributor holddown.
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Cheapskate207
The left one hangs a little lower
I missed the post where he said that. My bad. 400hp NA with a stock 302 based block will require some very nice quality parts. Carry on.
Beautiful engine. With a $8.5k price tag.Assuming you're going to actually be using that est. 460-475 fwhp, I would budget in a new transmission also.
Unless you really want the thrill (and time spent/headaches) of the chase, why not just buy a built stroker motor. While this one won't give you 400 rwhp (probably closer to 350ish), it would still be hella fun in a Foxbody. And, it's an all-new, warrantied, better-than-stock block package of proven-to-work-together parts. Just putting ideas in your head....
Ford SB Compatible 347 c.i. Engine - 415 HP - Base Dressed - Rear Sump - Fuel Injected
BluePrint Engines 302 c.i. small block Ford style crate engine - longblock. Includes 30 month / 50,000 warranty & BPE Dyno Promise. Part #: BP3479RCTF
(Could also save a grand on that motor by going carbed, in lieu of EFI.)
My personal desire with this car is to try and use already existing parts, ie reusing things instead of buying brand new. It is not lost on me that there are tons of parts on my car, some put on by me, which were brand new instead of trying to refurbish. At the same time though, a fox body with purpose built aluminum heads turns me off. I don't have a logical reason why, just my feelings. On the flip side, I love the idea of reusing iron from a Ford Explorer or Cobra to improve the performance of my car.
Squishy feelings aside, my preference is to push my 302 with iron. I think I came to terms with no blower/turbo and being NA. Based on this I dont have many options with my existing block. Unless I am mistaken, bore and stroker are my options for the 302 block. This also allows TMoss to bore out my intake combo and me finding appropriate TB.
85GTStangGuy
Advanced Member
This is a very good argument, and one I keep coming back to. To be honest, im trying to keep my options open to go this route.
If I find a bare block, I wouldnt limit myself to a 302. If I were to go this route I would find myself an old 351w. I would then need to price our bore/stroke combo's to see where to go next. From there I would rebuild it finding what I could and buying only when necessary.
Regarding the T5, ive decided to push it to its limit. From reading the opinions are across the board on how strong/weak they are. From what I gather if I dump my clutch a lot, like at a strip, it aint going to last. At least today, I feel like I am an overly cautious driver. So my thoughts are to push it and see what happens. If it fails, ill find something to rebuild myself. Depending on the route I go with the actual engine, I may start rebuilding one sooner rather than later.
A few years ago, before " transitory" inflation, I easily spent over 4K on my Explorer motor rebuild......
Bore, Forged pistons, TFStage 1 cam, basic valve job on the GT40P heads..... I did the take apart and Assembly of it...
It adds up fast....
Bore, Forged pistons, TFStage 1 cam, basic valve job on the GT40P heads..... I did the take apart and Assembly of it...
It adds up fast....
Thank you. I think an on3 turbo kit is prolly the fastest way to the most hp.
This conversation helped me understand that I want to stay NA. From there I had to think about what type of NA I wanted. Stroker seemed the most reasonable for the 302. Yea, I would need to take about the top end, but ive done it before and it would be easier the second time. In all honesty though, the DIY valve job is what took all the time. Had I not had to do that it would have taken significantly less time.
If my current setup lasts another 2-3 years I think I would be satisfied with my initial work. And to repeat, this is the first car ive done any engine work on, other than changing spark plugs and valve cover gaskets.
If I take the next 2 years to dial in exhaust and gearing, I feel like I would be ready for a final engine decision.
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