StangNet '11 5.0 Notch Project

MRaburn · Sep 2, 2011

fox racer said:
One question: aside from the bolt/mounting hole massaging, the only thing you had to do in order to mate the hydroboost to fox pedals was raise the connecting pin 1" center on center?

Joe

Yep, it was as easy as grinding the back of the weld off the pin, hammer it out, drill another hole 1" center to center (I think it was 3/4") then hammer the pin back in and weld the back side to hold it in place. One thing that becomes an issue though is your stock brake light switch is not going to work. It was crazy how we ended up fixing this. We got an old Ford Truck brake light switch (pick somewhere around a 74 model). Then insert this in where the original cruise control switch is (did not need it anymore for the Coyote) and insert it there. NOTE that now it is not long enough (the new switch) to reach the brake pedal, to fix this we took about a 1" by 1" piece of 1/4" steel and JB welded it to the pedal to take up the slack, worked out perfect!

Here is a shot of the car we took while at Tulsa.

Mike

fox racer · Sep 2, 2011

MRaburn said:
Yep, it was as easy as grinding the back of the weld off the pin, hammer it out, drill another hole 1" center to center (I think it was 3/4") then hammer the pin back in and weld the back side to hold it in place. One thing that becomes an issue though is your stock brake light switch is not going to work. It was crazy how we ended up fixing this. We got an old Ford Truck brake light switch (pick somewhere around a 74 model). Then insert this in where the original cruise control switch is (did not need it anymore for the Coyote) and insert it there. NOTE that now it is not long enough (the new switch) to reach the brake pedal, to fix this we took about a 1" by 1" piece of 1/4" steel and JB welded it to the pedal to take up the slack, worked out perfect!

Here is a shot of the car we took while at Tulsa.

Mike

So something like this:
1968-1974 Ford F-100 Pickup Brake Light Switch - AC Delco D885

With a small piece on the pedal arm to make contact (An extension of sorts).

Let me open things up, questions for everybody who's done the swap, but of course please chime in if you have the time Mike:

Fuel lines: My project will most likely have something similar to Glenn's sleeper kit. When plumbing everything as a return style system, the fuel lines/system runs similar to a fox? Supply line to a regulator/y block to rails, then back home to the tank. Is there anything special I should look for, or is it straightforward like a fox system?

Power steering: To avoid line issues, when all the hardware is in place (MC, pump etc), can I just plumb my own lines?

A/C: when all the PS/A/C options are ironed out, I'll assume the FRPP kit doesn't have a hook up for A/C, so I'll have to wire it to the ISIS kit. What about all the lines for the AC stuff, does the Fox stuff mock up, or do you have to run 2011+ lines?

MRaburn · Sep 3, 2011

That switch will work fine, you basically get it in place then compensate to get it where it needs to be.

Fuel Lines. I used the stock lines up to the right fender area. I cut them off at the back of the strut tower side and ran AN fittings from there to the regulator. The regulator returns the fuel and you have one line running to the fuel rail with a Ford quick connector. We upgraded the pump to a 255lph and is doing fine.

Yes you can make your own lines. There were so many different fittings and trials to make it work... I wish I had wrote them all down but it was crunch time in the shop and kept trying different fittings to make it work.

Basically 90% of them were Aeroquip P/S fittings that are reusable (not crimped) and I have/had no leaks building them myself.

AGR makes an AN adaptor kit for the rack, these are standard thread fittings.
AGR Performance 910800 - AGR Performance Adapter Fittings - Overview - SummitRacing.com

Fittings on the pump and hyrdo are metric.
The adaptors to convert them to AN we got from here.
Hydratech Braking Systems :: Hose, Fittings and Adapter Listings
I have the invoice for these so if someone needs them before i document this all PM me.

We took the return fitting from the hyrdo, that small nipple one. Removed it (2003 and newer are left hand threads) and then cut and welded an AN fitting to it to have a return AN line. Get an AN -6 plug, drill a hole through it, then cut off the stock return nipple and weld them together and you get a AN return fitting.

P/s hose fittings I used (some 90, some straight) Aeroquip FBM1389 - Aeroquip Reusable Hose Ends - Overview - SummitRacing.com
Hose I used in -6 an and then -10an for reservoir to pump
Fragola Performance Systems 851006 - Fragola Performance Systems Power Steering Hose - Overview - SummitRacing.com
Its a chore to build your own but not bad if you have a Vice to hold it and some 3n1 oil. Use a die cutter to cut the hose to length nice and straight. I did it so anyone can.

I'll document this more once I start to break down the process.

Right now A/C is still a mess. KRC was making a pump pulley and pump to fit on the engine and allow the A/C to work. The guy I was working with has left KRC so Im not sure what the status is on that. :/ The Control Pak has an A/C wire which I believe is the ON signal to adjust the idle. When using the ISIS system (Which I have not wired to Heat/AC yet) basically we will feed a POWER line from ISIS, which will be a constant 12v when ACC is on, then use all the original switches to control AC and blower motor. Again, I will document this when I attempt it, as right now there is no way to put the compressor on the car till I get the P/S issue solved. Then you can just have custom lines made from all the original FOX fittings to the 2011 A/C compressor. Fun stuff IM sure...

I have tons of pictures of things I need to post. Cooler weather coming will allow me to do this.

To be completely honest Im kind of pissed at the car right now. There is a tuning issue. The car dies at stops. When you slow down and down shift to a light the car will stall, it can't find idle. It starts right back up but dang if I want Grandma rearending me at a light. I won't bore you with the details but everyone is having this issue and several tuners and Ford are trying to solve it.

Hope that helps some.

fox racer · Sep 3, 2011

MRaburn said:
To be completely honest Im kind of pissed at the car right now. There is a tuning issue. The car dies at stops. When you slow down and down shift to a light the car will stall, it can't find idle. It starts right back up but dang if I want Grandma rearending me at a light. I won't bore you with the details but everyone is having this issue and several tuners and Ford are trying to solve it.

My old notch did that. I made a turn once (Imagine 135* angle, but it was at a light) and right as I downshifted approaching the turn and I started cutting the wheel- boom, flat on its face. No power, brake pedal stiff, steering heavy, facing a light pole. I just 2 handed the wheel made it through the turn and started it back up while coasting.

Not fun, I sincerely hope they find this little bug.

Thanks again for the reply.

fox racer · Sep 6, 2011

OK, I'm piecing together the drive train parts.

Which bell housing/starter/clutch do I use? 96-04, or 05-10 units?

I know you tapped a hose for the water temp sending unit, what about oil, where did you place the Auto Meter unit?

Finally, the pedal mount you made, you aren't making them for consumption are you? If so, please let me know when it's available, I'd certainly give you my business if you plan to.

MRaburn · Sep 6, 2011

Joe,

You need to check this list if you have not, I have 100s of parts listed and even footnotes to help clear things up.

http://www.stangnet.com/btc-parts

All the drivetrain stuff is 4.6 stuff. The oil sending unit taps into the sending unit on the car at the oil filter, u just need a 2 way t brass setup to put the autometer one in.

Mike

fox racer · Sep 6, 2011

MRaburn said:
Joe,

You need to check this list if you have not, I have 100s of parts listed and even footnotes to help clear things up.

http://www.stangnet.com/btc-parts

All the drivetrain stuff is 4.6 stuff. The oil sending unit taps into the sending unit on the car at the oil filter, u just need a 2 way t brass setup to put the autometer one in.

Mike

Yes I do. Thanks for the patience, I'm just very averse to half assing piecing it together.

stangonline · Sep 16, 2011

MRaburn said:
There is a tuning issue. The car dies at stops. When you slow down and down shift to a light the car will stall, it can't find idle. It starts right back up but dang if I want Grandma rearending me at a light. I won't bore you with the details but everyone is having this issue and several tuners and Ford are trying to solve it.

I wondered if this was going to be an issue. I started asking people early (I think I might have asked in this thread somewhere?) if the harness had a VSS sensor input (wondering how they would adapt for the different transmissions out there) and was told that it did not. For years, that sensor is how Ford has determined if the car was stopped or not. If you have a bad VSS (or unhook it), the symptoms you are describing is the result.

Hopefully they can resolve it another way, but the only thing I can think of (and I can't imagine how else they would accomplish this) is to add a pigtail for a VSS sensor and a new calibration.

MRaburn · Sep 16, 2011

We are slowly working on it. Part of it for sure is the rate of drop to idle. Adjusting this has helped and we are trying to adjust offsite.

One tuner I know of at S&R Performance has corrected this problem but was with 6 hours of dyno work and they are not sure it applies to all tunes. They played with the MAF calibration because of rapid fluctuation in the MAF. The closed loop would keep going to positive then negative causing the calibration to be chasing itself. Im not a calibration guy so I can give you the technical terms.

I think this needs to be fixed deep down in the Ford tune.

stangonline · Sep 21, 2011

AGR makes an AN adaptor kit for the rack, these are standard thread fittings.
AGR Performance 910800 - AGR Performance Adapter Fittings - Overview - SummitRacing.com

Are these the same fittings for any rack?

Fittings on the pump and hyrdo are metric.
The adaptors to convert them to AN we got from here.
Hydratech Braking Systems :: Hose, Fittings and Adapter Listings
I have the invoice for these so if someone needs them before i document this all PM me.

I'm not sure what I'm doing for the pump just yet (electric) but I'd like to know which specific fittings you used for the hydro.

We took the return fitting from the hyrdo, that small nipple one. Removed it (2003 and newer are left hand threads) and then cut and welded an AN fitting to it to have a return AN line. Get an AN -6 plug, drill a hole through it, then cut off the stock return nipple and weld them together and you get a AN return fitting.

Not 100% clear on this one - but it sounds like I could just use a factory style clamp on this one, since it's low-pressure? That way I can just leave the nipple as-is?

P/s hose fittings I used (some 90, some straight) Aeroquip FBM1389 - Aeroquip Reusable Hose Ends - Overview - SummitRacing.com
Hose I used in -6 an and then -10an for reservoir to pump
Fragola Performance Systems 851006 - Fragola Performance Systems Power Steering Hose - Overview - SummitRacing.com

Do you have black braided hose or is that a covering? I'd prefer the black "fabric" looking hose for the OEM look as opposed to stainless.

Right now A/C is still a mess. KRC was making a pump pulley and pump to fit on the engine and allow the A/C to work. The guy I was working with has left KRC so Im not sure what the status is on that. :/ The Control Pak has an A/C wire which I believe is the ON signal to adjust the idle. When using the ISIS system (Which I have not wired to Heat/AC yet) basically we will feed a POWER line from ISIS, which will be a constant 12v when ACC is on, then use all the original switches to control AC and blower motor. Again, I will document this when I attempt it, as right now there is no way to put the compressor on the car till I get the P/S issue solved. Then you can just have custom lines made from all the original FOX fittings to the 2011 A/C compressor. Fun stuff IM sure...

Are you able to keep the stock location of the fox dryer?

To be completely honest Im kind of pissed at the car right now. There is a tuning issue. The car dies at stops. When you slow down and down shift to a light the car will stall, it can't find idle. It starts right back up but dang if I want Grandma rearending me at a light. I won't bore you with the details but everyone is having this issue and several tuners and Ford are trying to solve it.

Continuing research on this... A few people have had luck with tuning these - but I'm not 100% convinced by a solution that doesn't involve a VSS. Still:
FFRP coyote 5.0 crate engine swaps "suck" - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum

MRaburn · Sep 21, 2011

Are these the same fittings for any rack?

I believe all FOX racks up until SN95 are the same, I think they went to metric then.

I'm not sure what I'm doing for the pump just yet (electric) but I'd like to know which specific fittings you used for the hydro.

Should be the HBS-2609 (O-ring at end type) and HBS-9405. These will go on the HB. If the 9405 is wrong, then its the 9406 but I really remember it being the 9405. This is the same fitting to be used on a power steering pump as well of a SN95 car. I had a 9406 ordered as well and cant find it laying around, I think it was for the rack if it had been metric but it was not, so think its just thrown to the side somewhere.
Hydratech Braking Systems :: Hose, Fittings and Adapter Listings

You could leave nipple as is, I just wanted to keep the entire system as AN fittings as now you have to tie that into your rack return as well.

All the PS lines come in blue, I used the Painless Wire Loom to make it all black.

I have no idea of the dryer is going to fit, I will probably be able to move some hoses around to allow for the room, time will tell.

I figure I will have to go get on a Dyno to get this right, but heck all cars are so similar, Im hoping someone can just send me a file.

Mike

stangonline · Sep 22, 2011

+1 on just sending you a file. If they are on to something (they say they are) - they are telling people it requires custom tuning and that it's not the same fix for all cars.... Not so sure about that - I'd put more money on a tuner not wanting to share, not that I blame them but call it what it is. I could be wrong....

09secondGT · Sep 29, 2011

very nice car..awsome thread build...

escosaint · Sep 29, 2011

nice

u took the color i wanted for mine i am working all the bugs out of mine as well i am either going to put the motor in a 93 hatch or a 87 with t tops....dont know if original. but very nice man keep it up bro and let me know if u find out the issue with the stall at stop kuz when i get done i dont want this issue lol.

RedRio97 · Oct 18, 2011

MRaburn said:
Are these the same fittings for any rack?

I believe all FOX racks up until SN95 are the same, I think they went to metric then.

I'm not sure what I'm doing for the pump just yet (electric) but I'd like to know which specific fittings you used for the hydro.

Should be the HBS-2609 (O-ring at end type) and HBS-9405. These will go on the HB. If the 9405 is wrong, then its the 9406 but I really remember it being the 9405. This is the same fitting to be used on a power steering pump as well of a SN95 car. I had a 9406 ordered as well and cant find it laying around, I think it was for the rack if it had been metric but it was not, so think its just thrown to the side somewhere.
Hydratech Braking Systems :: Hose, Fittings and Adapter Listings

You could leave nipple as is, I just wanted to keep the entire system as AN fittings as now you have to tie that into your rack return as well.

All the PS lines come in blue, I used the Painless Wire Loom to make it all black.

I have no idea of the dryer is going to fit, I will probably be able to move some hoses around to allow for the room, time will tell.

I figure I will have to go get on a Dyno to get this right, but heck all cars are so similar, Im hoping someone can just send me a file.

Mike

I have a tune that fixes the stalling issue and now drivabilty issues are worked out as well, I need to go back to the dyno to ensure WOT is remaining strong.

I wish I could give you the SCT file but the file is locked = like others have said tuners who figure out how to workaround the issue are going to protect that info.

I have heard from GoldDust on corral that Ford Racing is working with the Ford Engineer to allow vehicle speed input - VSS or OSS i think. They seem to be admitting to a bad strategy - at least as far as dashpot goes from what i can tell.

My tune just runs rich, there is no fluctuation from rich to lean, it just runs around 14% rich in closed loop, even though they have leaned it out 20%. THis is with 55psi (measured cold with liquid guage - not the most accurate but close) - I think it is 52 psi when hot.

MRaburn · Oct 19, 2011

Glad you got yours running right! The cars are a blast with that engine. Still waiting for a tuning fix on mine as well.

Mike

RedRio97 · Oct 20, 2011

MRaburn said:
Glad you got yours running right! The cars are a blast with that engine. Still waiting for a tuning fix on mine as well.

Mike

Thanks.

Now that I have been reading more of this thread and the history, I assume you know a lot more about this than I do. It has taken me awhile to figure out who is who and who has had the stalling issues. Now it is looking more and more like ALL have had the issue. I plan on going back to the Ford Racing calibration, that is, if they get the issue worked out like I've been reading.

Really really like your car. Very nice.

MRaburn · Nov 9, 2011

We were able to get Built to Cruise fixed and running. We got in touch with JMS Chip (Welcome to JMS Chip & Performance) and they have worked up a fix that seems to do the trick great!. Finally someone has tracked down the issue and has worked it out. Besides the idle issue, the overall drivability has greatly improved.

Now that we know a fix is there and doable, we plan to hit the dyno with her to tweak her the rest of the way. JMS is about 4 hours from us so we plan to take her down, get her tweaked and get you guys some numbers of what we are putting down.

For those (all of you really) that are experiencing the idle stop issue, give JMS a shout.

Finally... Built to Cruise went for a cruise today!!

Mike

LRSjmac · Nov 10, 2011

MRaburn said:
We were able to get Built to Cruise fixed and running. We got in touch with JMS Chip (Welcome to JMS Chip & Performance) and they have worked up a fix that seems to do the trick great!. Finally someone has tracked down the issue and has worked it out. Besides the idle issue, the overall drivability has greatly improved.

Now that we know a fix is there and doable, we plan to hit the dyno with her to tweak her the rest of the way. JMS is about 4 hours from us so we plan to take her down, get her tweaked and get you guys some numbers of what we are putting down.

For those (all of you really) that are experiencing the idle stop issue, give JMS a shout.

Finally... Built to Cruise went for a cruise today!!

Mike

Sweet!

stangonline · Jan 5, 2012

Updates? I'm changing things up a bit with a Boss 302 motor build.
http://93coupe.com/building-a-2012-boss-302-mustang-engine/

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