suspension install time
- Thread starter Torinalth
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well, i am finally done and am quite impressed with the results. with the addition of the LCAs and the PHB (i'm sick of working on the car so the endlinks didnt go on) the handeling has changed by a good margin.
things i attribute to the LCAs:
there is a marginally noticable improvement of starting from a dig, however without having better tires i really cant test this out to the extent i want to. The major thing you notice about the LCAs is that when stopped and about to make a turn, you can jump on the gas a lot more and it sticks better rather then just flying the tail around. you can still make this happen, just have to get the RPMs up higher before you let the clutch fully engague.
PHB:
the PHB wasnt readily apparent as i was making my way through traffic to my lil test spot. there was a good amount more NVh (lowercase H as i didnt notice much more harshness, but did notice the vibration and noise) but nothing standing out. it more or less was confined to more sound of the tires and slightly more noise over bumps.
the PHB was great for taking turns, the back end stuck very well and was more controlled. you could effortlessly read where the car was going to go as you intentionally put too much power down around a corner. very stable and true tracking. quick changes in direction didnt throw you around any more it keeps you planted.
the downside, which can be corrected is 2 fold. 1 i have a bit more understeer now that i have the PHB. i do have to put down more power to make it turn more sharply then before. the second thing is that i seem to have gained some body roll from the entire install. i have steeda front and rear swaybars and i used to corner completely flat. now with the PHB i do get more body roll. both this and the uindersteer can be changed with an adjustable rear swaybar. and i will be going that route now that i know i have to make a few changes.
one thing i cant pin down in the short drive i took, but will when i am on my daily runs, is that i do have more understeer that just shows the pure lack of grip on the front of the car. i am not sure if the endlink bushings finally gave out on the front or if its just inherant to the front suspension, but this will need to get corrected if i cant find a way to compensate with my driving habits as i did drift into another lane that i wasnt intending to use through a turn. more testing will be required to hammer everything out but overall i am pleased with the parts.
a few things to note about the install of the PHB. it is phenominally difficult if you have not done it before and is a nightmare if you were like and and ill prepared in the way of tools. a few things i can think of off hand that are not required, but sticking points if i ever have to do another isntall:
3 3/8 drill bits. they are used alot and the metal is thick. 4 fully charged batteries for the drill, or a corded drill, ou just blow through them. a Vise is a very nice thing to have to drastically shorten the cutting time on the frame inserts. angle grinder: this is more of a luxury item, buit does have its uses (replaced the hack saw for cutting being the main one). Dremel with die grinder: i had to make a lot of metal work on the axle brace and this would just massivly speed up the process. 6 jack stands: i had 4 and 2 ramps, and though i did it and did it well i could have done better had i been able to use all 17" of my jack stands instead of 12 (limitation of my ramps) but a lift would have cut down around 3 hours of the process instead of having to be on my back.
those are just the most apparent items that are usefull that i DIDNT have to do the install. oh, and a 20 and 21mm socket would be awesome to have. LCA install was pretty easy overall. had to fight my spherical bearings a bit to get them back in line with the holes for the pivit bolt, but not bad. and a tip for those doing LCAs, lube the walls and the outside of the poly bearings when sliding the end up into the chasie mount.
now that i have done it once, i think i can do it again in about 4-6 hours with the addition of those items i mentioned earlier. and even less time if i had a second jack and a helper.
as a note, this can be done by one person, with limited ground clearance, with only 4 jackstands, and the bare essentials: i proved it this weekend. but its a lot easier and less taxing on the body (sweating alot, and massive aches and pains now) if you are fully prepared with all the needed items.
any questions?
Torinalth
things i attribute to the LCAs:
there is a marginally noticable improvement of starting from a dig, however without having better tires i really cant test this out to the extent i want to. The major thing you notice about the LCAs is that when stopped and about to make a turn, you can jump on the gas a lot more and it sticks better rather then just flying the tail around. you can still make this happen, just have to get the RPMs up higher before you let the clutch fully engague.
PHB:
the PHB wasnt readily apparent as i was making my way through traffic to my lil test spot. there was a good amount more NVh (lowercase H as i didnt notice much more harshness, but did notice the vibration and noise) but nothing standing out. it more or less was confined to more sound of the tires and slightly more noise over bumps.
the PHB was great for taking turns, the back end stuck very well and was more controlled. you could effortlessly read where the car was going to go as you intentionally put too much power down around a corner. very stable and true tracking. quick changes in direction didnt throw you around any more it keeps you planted.
the downside, which can be corrected is 2 fold. 1 i have a bit more understeer now that i have the PHB. i do have to put down more power to make it turn more sharply then before. the second thing is that i seem to have gained some body roll from the entire install. i have steeda front and rear swaybars and i used to corner completely flat. now with the PHB i do get more body roll. both this and the uindersteer can be changed with an adjustable rear swaybar. and i will be going that route now that i know i have to make a few changes.
one thing i cant pin down in the short drive i took, but will when i am on my daily runs, is that i do have more understeer that just shows the pure lack of grip on the front of the car. i am not sure if the endlink bushings finally gave out on the front or if its just inherant to the front suspension, but this will need to get corrected if i cant find a way to compensate with my driving habits as i did drift into another lane that i wasnt intending to use through a turn. more testing will be required to hammer everything out but overall i am pleased with the parts.
a few things to note about the install of the PHB. it is phenominally difficult if you have not done it before and is a nightmare if you were like and and ill prepared in the way of tools. a few things i can think of off hand that are not required, but sticking points if i ever have to do another isntall:
3 3/8 drill bits. they are used alot and the metal is thick. 4 fully charged batteries for the drill, or a corded drill, ou just blow through them. a Vise is a very nice thing to have to drastically shorten the cutting time on the frame inserts. angle grinder: this is more of a luxury item, buit does have its uses (replaced the hack saw for cutting being the main one). Dremel with die grinder: i had to make a lot of metal work on the axle brace and this would just massivly speed up the process. 6 jack stands: i had 4 and 2 ramps, and though i did it and did it well i could have done better had i been able to use all 17" of my jack stands instead of 12 (limitation of my ramps) but a lift would have cut down around 3 hours of the process instead of having to be on my back.
those are just the most apparent items that are usefull that i DIDNT have to do the install. oh, and a 20 and 21mm socket would be awesome to have. LCA install was pretty easy overall. had to fight my spherical bearings a bit to get them back in line with the holes for the pivit bolt, but not bad. and a tip for those doing LCAs, lube the walls and the outside of the poly bearings when sliding the end up into the chasie mount.
now that i have done it once, i think i can do it again in about 4-6 hours with the addition of those items i mentioned earlier. and even less time if i had a second jack and a helper.
as a note, this can be done by one person, with limited ground clearance, with only 4 jackstands, and the bare essentials: i proved it this weekend. but its a lot easier and less taxing on the body (sweating alot, and massive aches and pains now) if you are fully prepared with all the needed items.
any questions?
Torinalth
on a side note. MMs instructions are awesome, however if anyone attempts this i have 2 alterations that i would take into account as options that i did and found it was easier.
between step 7 and 8 i removed the sway bar, and i changed up the directions so i did steps 9-12 before step 8... saved a lil time and hastle... but whats 15-30 min on my ordeal
Torinalth
between step 7 and 8 i removed the sway bar, and i changed up the directions so i did steps 9-12 before step 8... saved a lil time and hastle... but whats 15-30 min on my ordeal
Torinalth
oxfordgt
Member
I know how you feel. When me and my buddy did my install (almost everything in my sig.) we did it in one day, from 10am to 4am. When I got up the next morning I could barley move. Everything was sore. I think it was the best workout I had in a long time. Even lost 5lbs that day.
Question: When you installed the PHB can you keep the UCA or do you have to switch to a 3 link type setup?
Question: When you installed the PHB can you keep the UCA or do you have to switch to a 3 link type setup?
PHB is individual to its self, it does not replace anything, just added onto the stock 4 link. with slight alterations it becomes steeda's 5 link. i have stock UCAs, new LCAs, and the PHB. now, the reason i did the PHB and LCAs, is that now it ALLOWS me to do a trilink. the UCAs both stop axle windup and side to side motion. the PHB now controls the side to side, and the trilink is a single upper control arm that just limits axle windup. also will be on a strait axis with the car, instead of off axis like the stock UCAs.
my next step will be the trilink, and possible rear coilovers and road racing LCAs (depending on how much cash is on hand). but that depends on how much i need to sink into my driveshaft issue.
Torinalth
my next step will be the trilink, and possible rear coilovers and road racing LCAs (depending on how much cash is on hand). but that depends on how much i need to sink into my driveshaft issue.
Torinalth
That understeer was always there (race spring 850's and front steeda bar) you just notice it more since the rear is planted better, you should go back to the stock front swaybar and suggest using the supersport springs for a lower rate, it should balance out betterTorinalth said:
tomustang said:
really think i need to go back to the stock swaybar up front? i wont be changing springs as i will be going with superrace in the rear when the trilink is put on. or will that not even make a dent? in my mind the rear with the trilink nd superrace springs should be at least neutral if not slight oversteer....
wait, no... well... yeah... the trilink is just a single on axis UCA.... and with that it shouldnt change much in the way of the responce, and with the super race rear i should somewhat raise the oversteer ratio so that the understeer is brought back to center and possible oversteer heavy.... correct? I know that everyone touts that once the back is fully built you will slightly understeer, but isnt that combated by the stiffer rear swaybar and the higher spring rats in the back?
i can see the front swaybar, however riddle me this, if i go back to the stock front swaybar, wouldnt i be seeing adverse effects of a lot of body roll again thus twisting my frame as the back stays seated.... hmmm as of right now, with my working it on the way to my office i am getting better feedback from the rear now where it is easier to put it wher i want it. if i need to turn tighter I overturn on entry with slight braking then get on the power once i nose in. hate the sound it makes cuz my driveshaft is so damn sloppy, but its effective. took a 25 rated offramp at 60 (new best) and only heard tire protest at the very end, trying 65 next time.
Torinalth
you should forget about the super race rear springs and go for the coil-over rear, the super race only jumps to a 20lb higher progressive rate anyway, with the coil over you can choose 375's if you wanted tooTorinalth said:
as far as the stock bar try it and find out, sometimes too much stiffening is too much
hmmm... i'll give it a shot with the front sway. i need to change out the endlinks anyhow, so might as well swap bars and see what happens. its a fast swap so no biggy.
i dont know the conversin of the coilover wheel rate to the spring rate of traditional setups, know off hand what you think would be a good pairing? MM goes from 200 to 800 rates....
Torinalth
i dont know the conversin of the coilover wheel rate to the spring rate of traditional setups, know off hand what you think would be a good pairing? MM goes from 200 to 800 rates....
Torinalth
hotrodnut
Member
Good right up Torinalth 
, congrats on all the install too.
You have a little adjustment in the PHB to dial in/out over/understeer by the way. That may help you in tweaking the overall handling that you want to get out of your Mustang.
, congrats on all the install too.You have a little adjustment in the PHB to dial in/out over/understeer by the way. That may help you in tweaking the overall handling that you want to get out of your Mustang.
sorry to rez this again, but i have put some more time on the car and have a few more items i wanted to list here as things i noticed.
going back to the LCAs, something i noticed just in the past few days is the wet handeling. I have falken Azenis tires, which are average performance tires, nothing special. the biggest thing i noticed is taking U-Turns. when taking a U turn, in the rain, i would always pop the gas a lil, shake the wheel and slide through the turn for a lil fun. the LCAs have made this a bit more difficult, the rear grip has drastically increased, especially noticable in turns.
strait line wet grabbing is mildly improved, with only a little bit of notice, but the wet was a massive improvement.
a few other things i noticed as kinda mental side effects to the PHB, are the tendency to have the back end turn on its own. thats the best i can descrobe it as, you turn hard and you forcibly correct back to strait line (instead of letting it correct on its own) it feels like the back end is steering in the opposite direction. really odd feeling, and takes a lil time to get over as i have yet to feel anything like it before.
also, if you are used to the sloppy rear axle and have learned how to predict its movements in hard, changing turns, then you will definatly need to take it easy till you unlearn this. I have almost wrecked a few times when i was predicting my axle to stay in place on the ground for a bit longer (allowing me to snap oversteer on purpose when it finally follows the car) but instead had a rather impresive 4 wheel drift. while that was dandy and nice, i was trying to force oversteer to get into traffic and get my ass out of the way of the F250 that was comming down that lane. luckily the far lane was empty so hen i did drift farther then i wanted (instead of the standard over steer and sit when the back finally gets traction) i didnt have any problems on that side.
The overall change is somewhat maddening as you have to retrain your senses... you will almost NEVER overcorrect by steering with the LCAs and PHB, it resists the sharp movements that allowed this to happen. While i am still very happy with this setup, and would never take it off, i will give one warning to anyone getting a large chunk of the rear end grip at the same time: Take an entire weekend to try all kinds of scenarios to know what has changed before you start playing on the street and realize too late, that the new dog doesnt do that trick the same way as it used to.
Again, if anyone needs more clarification, or requesting additional/different info please let me know.
Torinalth
going back to the LCAs, something i noticed just in the past few days is the wet handeling. I have falken Azenis tires, which are average performance tires, nothing special. the biggest thing i noticed is taking U-Turns. when taking a U turn, in the rain, i would always pop the gas a lil, shake the wheel and slide through the turn for a lil fun. the LCAs have made this a bit more difficult, the rear grip has drastically increased, especially noticable in turns.
strait line wet grabbing is mildly improved, with only a little bit of notice, but the wet was a massive improvement.
a few other things i noticed as kinda mental side effects to the PHB, are the tendency to have the back end turn on its own. thats the best i can descrobe it as, you turn hard and you forcibly correct back to strait line (instead of letting it correct on its own) it feels like the back end is steering in the opposite direction. really odd feeling, and takes a lil time to get over as i have yet to feel anything like it before.
also, if you are used to the sloppy rear axle and have learned how to predict its movements in hard, changing turns, then you will definatly need to take it easy till you unlearn this. I have almost wrecked a few times when i was predicting my axle to stay in place on the ground for a bit longer (allowing me to snap oversteer on purpose when it finally follows the car) but instead had a rather impresive 4 wheel drift. while that was dandy and nice, i was trying to force oversteer to get into traffic and get my ass out of the way of the F250 that was comming down that lane. luckily the far lane was empty so hen i did drift farther then i wanted (instead of the standard over steer and sit when the back finally gets traction) i didnt have any problems on that side.
The overall change is somewhat maddening as you have to retrain your senses... you will almost NEVER overcorrect by steering with the LCAs and PHB, it resists the sharp movements that allowed this to happen. While i am still very happy with this setup, and would never take it off, i will give one warning to anyone getting a large chunk of the rear end grip at the same time: Take an entire weekend to try all kinds of scenarios to know what has changed before you start playing on the street and realize too late, that the new dog doesnt do that trick the same way as it used to.
Again, if anyone needs more clarification, or requesting additional/different info please let me know.
Torinalth
Did you try put the OEM swaybars back on?
Since it shouldn't take that much time, try it out. I think it'll make a difference in a positive way. MM, for the most part, designs their parts to work with either their sway bar or the stock ones. I have both stock ones on my car and don't seem to experience what you described above.
Since it shouldn't take that much time, try it out. I think it'll make a difference in a positive way. MM, for the most part, designs their parts to work with either their sway bar or the stock ones. I have both stock ones on my car and don't seem to experience what you described above.
hotrodnut
Member
Well said, yep, now that you do not have any lateral movement that is created from the stock control arms soft rubber bushings and no PHB, your Mustang's body doesn't tend to keep going while the tires don't in a corner. When that inertia is built up in the body and the tires stop sliding that creates the whole car to have a snap-back effect.Torinalth said:
With the set-up you have now, what your tires are doing basicly the body is doing, so that inertia effect is not there so in a sense one has to relearn to drive their car.
I'd suggest hitting a few Autocross Events to help in getting used to what is going on now.
all my old car parts are at my parents place. I needed to store them somewhere when I was moving and havnt goitten the chance to get back over there and get my old parts. when i do i will swap back to the stock front swaybar and see what happens, and maybe even go back to the stock rear if i have enough time.
I will be trying out auto-X, but have never done it before. its kinda intimidating having to run cones... been on the street for so long, i dont know how i would handle it. kinda looking to get to open track at VIR or RA where i think i would be more comfortable in the setting... but we will see. main issue is i dont know of anyone that does autocross here, and makes it difficult to track down where the hell to go
Torinalth
I will be trying out auto-X, but have never done it before. its kinda intimidating having to run cones... been on the street for so long, i dont know how i would handle it. kinda looking to get to open track at VIR or RA where i think i would be more comfortable in the setting... but we will see. main issue is i dont know of anyone that does autocross here, and makes it difficult to track down where the hell to go
Torinalth
hotrodnut
Member
I'd say try the Auto-x first if at all possible since the speeds are slower and rules make certain there is nothing to hit (tire walls etc.) in their course layouts. That way you can dial in the handling closer to what you'll need on the big tracks.Torinalth said:I will be trying out auto-X, but have never done it before. its kinda intimidating having to run cones... been on the street for so long, i dont know how i would handle it. kinda looking to get to open track at VIR or RA where i think i would be more comfortable in the setting... but we will see. main issue is i dont know of anyone that does autocross here, and makes it difficult to track down where the hell to go
Torinalth
Here is your region's web-site for the SCCA so you can decide what to do and where to go.
http://www.ncrscca.com/
Here is the link to the South East Division of the SCCA that will show you all the different regions you may want to attend.
http://www.sedivsolo2.com/
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