What can a dyno tune do.....
- Thread starter CivicEater
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mto502
Founding Member
I'm booked in for a dyno tuned chip, so I'll hopefully be happy with the results. If nothing else it will help tie together all the mods I've done to my car and have it running as efficiently as possible.
I'm running rich at WOT so it will at least take care of that and hopefully add a few ponies and torque.
A mail order chip is simply a generic program which is flashed onto a chip in an attempt to try to get the best program for your mods. It will never be perfect for your car going that route because no two cars are alike.
A dyno tuned chip uses the same process however, once the best program is found it will be fine tuned on the dyno drawing from that program.
It will be tuned specifically for your car and your setup.
I'm hoping to have better throttle response as well as a better timing curve and a nice flat AF across the board.
I'm running rich at WOT so it will at least take care of that and hopefully add a few ponies and torque.
A mail order chip is simply a generic program which is flashed onto a chip in an attempt to try to get the best program for your mods. It will never be perfect for your car going that route because no two cars are alike.
A dyno tuned chip uses the same process however, once the best program is found it will be fine tuned on the dyno drawing from that program.
It will be tuned specifically for your car and your setup.
I'm hoping to have better throttle response as well as a better timing curve and a nice flat AF across the board.
I know that the generic off the shelf stuff is junk, but since JMS talks to you and makes it custom, I was wondering what they cant tune that a dyno tune can or can tune better. I am guessing a dyno will get the af ratio a little better and probably have it idle a little better but I am not really sure.
mto502
Founding Member
This is what I'm saying though. Unless you have the tune done on the dyno it's not truely a custom tuned chip. Even though you give the chip company all your info about the mods you've done they're still only guessing what program will work best with your setup. It's still basically an off the shelf chip with the chip company guessing which generic program will work best for you.
With a dyno tune, they will also start the tune with the best program for your setup but, they will draw from that program on the dyno making adjustments that suit your exact setup.
With a dyno tune, they will also start the tune with the best program for your setup but, they will draw from that program on the dyno making adjustments that suit your exact setup.
mto502
Founding Member
TTT
Can anyone add to this or state what experiences they've had with dyno tuned chips on H/C/I modded 94/95 cars? What kind of gains etc?
I've heard in the neighborhood of 20 and as much as 50 rwhp in some instances.
Can anyone add to this or state what experiences they've had with dyno tuned chips on H/C/I modded 94/95 cars? What kind of gains etc?
I've heard in the neighborhood of 20 and as much as 50 rwhp in some instances.
BlackVert
15 Year Member
how much $$ do you have for a tune? you might think about gettng a "do it yourself" tuner.mto502 said:
if you have a laptop, you could get a TwEECer RT ($550) and tune it yourself. that is the route i am going because i will be able to try different options and tweek it as i upgrade stuff.
mto502
Founding Member
Black96VertGT said:
I personally have neither the time or interest in such a device as the twEECer (nor do I have a laptop). I want a quick tune done right the first time. There's a definite learning curve involved with a self tuning device such as the one mentioned. I'm pretty much at a pinnacle for the mods I'll be doing on my car. I could see myself possibly changing the cam in the future but when that day comes I'll get the car retuned at the same place I'm buying and having the chip dyno tuned at for a reasonable price, but that day won't be anytime soon.
When I did the mods I did on my car I did everything all at once. I figured I'd save on labour in the long run by just biting the bullet and purchasing all the parts I would ever want and having the whole shebang done as a one shot deal.
I would never order a mail order chip
they can put a tune together by what you say over the phone all they want, but nothing compares to a dyno tune.
every car is different, otherwise there would be a set FP for everyone to run which each setup. but in reality everyone is running something different to achieve the right A/f
I think alot of the peple here are leaving power on the table by their self done tweecer tunes and their mail order chips.... why arent there more people with 300+ RW with their AFR setups that should easily break that? Hmmmm there are a few factors, but that is just one.
they can put a tune together by what you say over the phone all they want, but nothing compares to a dyno tune.
every car is different, otherwise there would be a set FP for everyone to run which each setup. but in reality everyone is running something different to achieve the right A/f
I think alot of the peple here are leaving power on the table by their self done tweecer tunes and their mail order chips.... why arent there more people with 300+ RW with their AFR setups that should easily break that? Hmmmm there are a few factors, but that is just one.
mto502 said:
That is exactly the reason I would opt for a dynotune and custom chip burned onsite. Especially if you don't want a DIY tuning device.
As for a shared experience with a true custom burned chip on a dyno...In March of 2003 I had my car dyno "tuned" and a chip burnt by the famous "Jerry" of FordChip. (Now of SCT). I had recently finished up my Edelbrock heads/Extrude Honed Cobra intake/AFM B-21 camshaft swap and had driveability and cold start issues. The car ran fine the day of the tune, but starting two days later, and lasting for 10 months, I had the same (if not worse) issues. It really irritated me because I wanted to put a PMS on the car, but a friend talked me into going to this dynoday chip tuning day. The car was never right, even after another chip was burned and this time, mailed to me. I finally just went ahead and sold both chips, and bought the PMS and couldn't be happier. I dyno-tuned it myself 2 weeks ago and got very broad torque and horsepower numbers as well as a very safe and conservative air/fuel ratio. It took me three pulls since I had it fairly close from "street tuning" it. Got my nitrous tune safe and sweet in 2 pulls
So, personally, I'll never spend another nickel on anybody's chip, custom or otherwise, but if that's the road you want to take (and many have/do without problems), than get it done onsite by a respectable tuner. A mail order chip is just going to be close, regardless of who burns it. For me, "close" isn't good enough...
mto502
Founding Member
Has anyone here had or heard of what the before and after results were with a dyno tune?
My tuner will be doing a base run prior to the tuning to see exactly how much (if any) is gained.
My AF is 10.1:1 @ WOT so I'm hopeful to see some good results in the hp and torque areas. My drivablity is actually very good right now, but I believe I'm losing out on some major ponies and torque with that AF being so rich.
I'd also like a quicker throttle response because I'm certain there's room for improvement there.
rel3rd, that's unfortunate what you went through. At least you're happy now. I hope I don't experience similar results. I believe I'm in good hands with the tuner I'm using though.
P.S. rel3rd... I wouldn't want a dyno tune to happen on a dyno day either. I feel that the tuner would feel rushed due to having a lineup of cars waiting for a tune. I'm booked in with my tuner and he has that day booked for just me. He'll be spending at least 2 hours on the tune assuming all goes smooth. If not he'll stay on it until it's right.
My tuner will be doing a base run prior to the tuning to see exactly how much (if any) is gained.
My AF is 10.1:1 @ WOT so I'm hopeful to see some good results in the hp and torque areas. My drivablity is actually very good right now, but I believe I'm losing out on some major ponies and torque with that AF being so rich.
I'd also like a quicker throttle response because I'm certain there's room for improvement there.
rel3rd, that's unfortunate what you went through. At least you're happy now. I hope I don't experience similar results. I believe I'm in good hands with the tuner I'm using though.
P.S. rel3rd... I wouldn't want a dyno tune to happen on a dyno day either. I feel that the tuner would feel rushed due to having a lineup of cars waiting for a tune. I'm booked in with my tuner and he has that day booked for just me. He'll be spending at least 2 hours on the tune assuming all goes smooth. If not he'll stay on it until it's right.
mto502 said:
Well...you are 100% correct. The problem was that everyone who had ever dealt with FordChip swore they were the cat's meow. Everyone said they put a baseline tune in the car (like you'd get with a mailorder), then tweak it a little and you're done...I'd have much rather have paid for and gotten what it is you are scheduled for. A true TUNE from someone who isn't rushing you through...
FWIW, the same day I PMS dynotuned my own car, I also PMS tuned my buddy's car. His was way out in right field, but I got him very respectable numbers and a very safe tune-up as well...but it took 10 pulls to do it...Basically, I started from scratch, like you'll be having done...
Good Luck...
mto502
Founding Member
rel3rd said:
Thankyou.
I assume they didn't do a baseline pull on the dyno prior to installing the chip since they were rushed?
If they did, what were the gains?
If not with the chip did you do a before and after pull on the dyno with your PMS?
mto502
Founding Member
mto502 said:
Both of my baseline numbers are skewed...
For the FordChip tune, they asked me to set base timing at 10*, set fuel pressure at 38psi, and remove my Extender. The car was a dog like this and made a baseline of 208rwhp...after the chip it made 257rwhp (I had an older AOD in the car at the time). The 208rwhp number wasn't right because I had it tuned (power-wise) to run just as quick and fast at the track using 18* timing, 45psi fuel pressure, and my Extender set at 12.5:1 a/f ratio...So, I guess you could say they found 49rwhp, but it was horsepower that I was asked to tune OUT of the car before bringing it to them...Not a good comparison IMO...
As far as the PMS, like I said, I was real close to optimum from "street tuning" it. I only had to make a few WOT air/fuel changes, which didn't add a great amount of horsepower, but did make that horsepower much broader on the graph, and the torque is great for a little 302 IMO...it's also very broad, which makes for a fun driver. FWIW, PMS baseline was in the 270's for rwhp, and 280's for rwtq....After three changes, I settled for 286rwhp/309.9rwtq...This was with a very safe average air/fuel ratio of 12.7:1, being leaner in the lower rpm's, richer in the higher rpm's. I'm certain that with some dedicated dyno time I could get 300rwhp...and I may do just that in the near future...300 just "sounds" better than 2 hundred and anything, ya know? LOL
CivicEater: FWIW, I don't recall ever hearing anything bad about JMS, and if I was ever to do a mail order chip, they'd probably be the one I'd choose as well. Beware of FordChip...several people on the Corral have gotten screwed around very recently by FordChip, now that "Jerry" is with SuperChips...Not sure if Don95vert is a member here, but he is an SCT dealer and I'm sure he'd also do a decent job for you...I totally understand the money thing as I have a wife and three kids, lol...Good Luck
mto502
Founding Member
Cool, thanks for that explanation. What do you feel your car when it had the AOD was putting down with the 18 degree timing ?
I underand the 94-95 GT's have 3 speed governors built into the stock EEC. One kicks in at 90 mph etc etc but apparently they're not all that noticeable by way of SOTP. I've read that they retard timing and fuel but don't actually cut the car off.
I know you guys with twEECers and PMS's can cut that out. I assume a chip will do the same ? No wonder I'm not getting my f'ing trap speeds in that case ! ...plus the fact it's running rich.
I underand the 94-95 GT's have 3 speed governors built into the stock EEC. One kicks in at 90 mph etc etc but apparently they're not all that noticeable by way of SOTP. I've read that they retard timing and fuel but don't actually cut the car off.
I know you guys with twEECers and PMS's can cut that out. I assume a chip will do the same ? No wonder I'm not getting my f'ing trap speeds in that case ! ...plus the fact it's running rich.
Well, with my tune and an Extender, I went 13.20's at 105...
With my $400 custom FordChip, I went 13.20's at 105, with a one-time perfect condition [email protected] I gained nothing but headaches...lol...
To my knowledge only the Cobras had any kind of speed limiters...The GT's do have a "tip-in retard" that retards timing every time you apply the gas pedal, like if you let off the gas to shift, for example. This was done by Ford to help lower the number of warranty claims on the five speed cars. An Extender, a chip, or most any of the "tuners" will eliminate that. I have my PMS setup to make the car run in "StandAlone" at 2000 rpm's and 50% TPS voltage. In other words, if I'm over 2000 rpm's and the gas pedal is halfway down or more, the PMS is controlling everything as far as how the car is running. It is not running on any of the Ford factory ecm parameters.
As for your trap speeds, taking a quick peek at your signature, it looks like the overall combo simply isn't matched as well as it could be...Heads and Intake are more for higher rpm because they breathe well, but 355's cannot posibly let it stay in the sweet spot like a set of 410's would. Naturally aspirated, you'll never trap what it should with 355 gears. 410's would really pick it up, or even 373's is a happy medium. I had 410's, but swapped back to 373's so I wouldn't run out of motor when spraying it. I shift at 5800-6000 and go through the traps at 5500-5600rpm's N/A...6000+ with the nitrous.
I have stock Edelbrock 60379 heads, an AFM B-21 cam, and an Extrude honed Cobra intake and the day I dyno-tuned the car, I went 12.88@107 N/A, 11.92@116 on a 100 shot of nitrous. My car is far from setup for the strip. It's lowered, has big rims and tires, swaybars in place, nothing removed for weight savings, and it's a fully optioned leather interiored GT. Personally, if I had your present combo, I'd swap to a Street Heat upper, a 65mm TB, and a gear swap to at least 373's, maybe 390's, or for a maximum gain, 410's...Your car would run much better IMO...even without a "tune"...
With my $400 custom FordChip, I went 13.20's at 105, with a one-time perfect condition [email protected] I gained nothing but headaches...lol...
To my knowledge only the Cobras had any kind of speed limiters...The GT's do have a "tip-in retard" that retards timing every time you apply the gas pedal, like if you let off the gas to shift, for example. This was done by Ford to help lower the number of warranty claims on the five speed cars. An Extender, a chip, or most any of the "tuners" will eliminate that. I have my PMS setup to make the car run in "StandAlone" at 2000 rpm's and 50% TPS voltage. In other words, if I'm over 2000 rpm's and the gas pedal is halfway down or more, the PMS is controlling everything as far as how the car is running. It is not running on any of the Ford factory ecm parameters.
As for your trap speeds, taking a quick peek at your signature, it looks like the overall combo simply isn't matched as well as it could be...Heads and Intake are more for higher rpm because they breathe well, but 355's cannot posibly let it stay in the sweet spot like a set of 410's would. Naturally aspirated, you'll never trap what it should with 355 gears. 410's would really pick it up, or even 373's is a happy medium. I had 410's, but swapped back to 373's so I wouldn't run out of motor when spraying it. I shift at 5800-6000 and go through the traps at 5500-5600rpm's N/A...6000+ with the nitrous.
I have stock Edelbrock 60379 heads, an AFM B-21 cam, and an Extrude honed Cobra intake and the day I dyno-tuned the car, I went 12.88@107 N/A, 11.92@116 on a 100 shot of nitrous. My car is far from setup for the strip. It's lowered, has big rims and tires, swaybars in place, nothing removed for weight savings, and it's a fully optioned leather interiored GT. Personally, if I had your present combo, I'd swap to a Street Heat upper, a 65mm TB, and a gear swap to at least 373's, maybe 390's, or for a maximum gain, 410's...Your car would run much better IMO...even without a "tune"...
mto502
Founding Member
You're correct about the 3.55's. I'm only going through the trap at about 4900 rpm. I like the streetability of the 3.55's though. A friend of mine with a 95 GT just swapped out his 3.55's for 4.10's and he doesn't like them. He finds them too steep for the highway for one thing as I'm sure I would as well.
I'm sure 3.73's would better suit me. I just hate having to remove the tranny to properly calibrate my speedo with 373's or higher.
My best two traps are 104.6 mph with a 13.69 ET and 103.20 mph with a 13.66 ET. Both 60 fts however were between 2.1-2.2 on my street tires. That was a fully prepped track on a big event day at the track too..lol
Remember though, my AF is 10.1 @ WOT. I'm figuring (hoping) that once I get that under control I'll see those trap speeds increase substantially.
I dyno'd high 270's-280 rwhp and 300+ torque in this state.
My car is also completely stock in weight (zero weight reductions) and suspension, sway bars etc. It looks like a 4x4 as many have told me due to the stock springs and ride height. I haven't even removed the spare tire.
I'm sure 3.73's would better suit me. I just hate having to remove the tranny to properly calibrate my speedo with 373's or higher.
My best two traps are 104.6 mph with a 13.69 ET and 103.20 mph with a 13.66 ET. Both 60 fts however were between 2.1-2.2 on my street tires. That was a fully prepped track on a big event day at the track too..lol
Remember though, my AF is 10.1 @ WOT. I'm figuring (hoping) that once I get that under control I'll see those trap speeds increase substantially.
I dyno'd high 270's-280 rwhp and 300+ torque in this state.
My car is also completely stock in weight (zero weight reductions) and suspension, sway bars etc. It looks like a 4x4 as many have told me due to the stock springs and ride height. I haven't even removed the spare tire.
95GTS
Founding Member
I went with a JMS mail order chip on my old supercharged 95GTS. It didn't work out well as did another mail order chip down the road. I agree with the others in that a custom dyno-tune by a competent tuner or tune it yourself would be the best bet. Even with the mail order chip, my 95 stalled, idled erratically, bucked under acceleration, etc. Came off the dyno (Danny Swanson in California) and the car idled and drove like a stocker until you mashed on the gas. Not only did drivability improve ten fold but the hp/tq gains were impressive. As I recall I went from 341rwhp/361rwtq to 380rwhp/367rwtq SAE. I would never do a mail order chip again, thus I have waited almost a year to chip my 03 Cobra until I could go to a tuner I have trust in (Danny Swanson).
mto502 said:
I hear ya on the highway/410's thing...I didn't really like that either, but acceleration was very nice.
373's are an excellent compromise IMO, and once you get that a/f ratio dialed in, you'll definitely pick up. As for the speedo thing, I just deal with it, but I would like to get it accurate...might just get a SpeedCal from Dallas Mustang or BBK...Similar threads
