What can I expect from a chip on my setup?

[svasica]

What could I expect from a chip with my combo? Will there be good HP and TQ gains? Any negative affects? I'm also trying to figure out whether I should go with a custom chip from a local shop that wil dyno tune or should I go with an off the shelf tuner? What about the flip chips are they something I should be looking at for my setup?

I no longer have the C&L 76mm MAF but a Pro-M 80mm unit. I also will be installing a crane hi 6 ignition.

 

[dragnazz5.0]

with that combo, i would either check out the 5.0tuning forum and look into a tweecer or getting a custom tune on a dyno

 

[vristang]

Dude, your sig is huge. I am so jealous.

Off the shelf chips are far from ideal.
A little better would be to email your specs to a shop that will burn a chip for you.
Better than that would be to hit a chassis dyno, and have a chip burned.
Best (in my opinion) would be to invest in a personal tuner, which you could learn to use yourself or simply take to a dyno shop.

my thoughts
jason

 

[86bluecobra]

get a custom chip. like the guys say.

 

[svasica]

VRISTANG, guess thats one of the advantages of being a founding member

Anyway, I've been to Jimmy LaRoccas shop before and I know he does custom chips so maybe i should see how much he would charge.

By personal tuner, you mean something like the tweecer? or Xcal? Only problem with that is I don't have wide band o2's. How hard is it to tune without access to a dyno and wideband o2's? Can I have several parameter sets that can be preprogrammed and loaded onto the chip whenever I want for the track and street? If so this would be the ideal way to go!

 

[352Ford2]

Have we forgotten our roots? we are direct descendents of hotroders! you don't need wide bands, read plugs like most race car guys do. Or you can buy or build a wide band contoroler and get some o2 sensors throw in bungs into your exaust and you are good to go. They aren't as expensive as they used to be.

 

[2000xp8]

I wouldn't waste my money, spend it elsewhere. A chip isn't going to give you anything a Fuel pressure and timing tweak wouldn't.

Don't be fooled by some peoples claims of HP with a chip on a fox, especially NA. Their cars were just messed up to begin with.

Spend your money on a custom cam, because i've seen much better numbers from NA stock shortblock combos.

If not the cam, some headwork. Get a valve job, spring seat pressure set, bowl cleanup, and your car will be 11's @ 115+.
Tw's are great, but they are a bit undersized for a 331.


A chip will be money in the garbage. The fox computer is not restrictive.

BTW, if you have the II cam, the TW springs are really not good for that much lift.

You have a good combo, no reason that's not an 11 second car without a chip.

 

[vristang]

VRISTANG, guess thats one of the advantages of being a founding member

Anyway, I've been to Jimmy LaRoccas shop before and I know he does custom chips so maybe i should see how much he would charge.

By personal tuner, you mean something like the tweecer? or Xcal? Only problem with that is I don't have wide band o2's. How hard is it to tune without access to a dyno and wideband o2's? Can I have several parameter sets that can be preprogrammed and loaded onto the chip whenever I want for the track and street? If so this would be the ideal way to go!

I can't wait to be a founding member
I'll make one word posts, just to display my 3 page sig.


Back on topic -
I did mean something like the tweecer, pms, moates; there are several options. You will not need wb O2s until you go to tune WOT. You can make some significant improvements in part throttle and idle quality with stock O2s.
With the use of wb O2s and a datalogger (tweecer RT), you can get very similar results as what you would see with a dyno tune. I would argue better because the vehicle is actually moving when you record data.

The tweecer rt comes with a 5 position switch, one of witch is a default back to the stock tune.
So you can switch between 4 different play settings

If you want to look into the tuner option some more check out the 5.0 Fox tuner forum. You may find some answers or find some resources.

jason

 

[svasica]

2000xp8, I actually replaced the springs with some dual springs from TFS for like $90 so they can handle the lift.

So, what i'm hearing is that there wouldn't be much of an increase in HP with a custom chip? Aight, I can handle that....so what about a custom cam? Who does good custom grinds and what kinda HP and TQ #'s could I expect with a custom grind? How much $$?

Would I actually be better off switching out the diff and axles to handle the power I have now?

 

[2000xp8]

Internet guys tend to like Ed curtis or Jay allen for custom cams.
I believe the custom cam cost is $350.

Also consider having the heads valve jobbed, bowls cleaned up and the seat pressure set. You'd be looking at 15 rwhp just from this work.
I see you live in NJ, my friend dwayne owns outrageous mustangs in Jackson. He could set you up with your cam, and have the heads done by his guy, head work will cost you about $250. (prices based on you having him do the install)

No reason a good 331 shouldn't lay down around 375rwhp. I've known guys that have gotten low 340's to the wheels with stock shortblocks NA, and guys with 347's NA that have been as high as 440 rwhp.

Me personally, i'd wait to do the rear until it's a problem, if you don't put sticky tires on, it may never go, if it works fine now.
If it does go, repace every last part, gears, bearings axles, 31 spline stuff.

 

[svasica]

2000xp8, the engine does not have many miles on it right now, so I don't think i'd go and rip the heads off to do head work right now, but definentaly in the future when i'm ready to do a rebuild. Just out of curiousity though, what do you think he would charge if i brought the car to him and had him do the head work and custom cam? Does he do custom chips as well?

BTW, I do use MT ET Streets at the track so I'm hoping the rear and axles hold up on me.

 

[2000xp8]

I forgot the labor cost of the cam and head install. But i can tell you that he will tell you a chip is a waste of time, he's got a bunch of guys with 347 cars NA in the low 11's and even mid 10's, no chips.

He's got alot of mandatory things he makes people do when he removes their heads, or does things like a custom cam. He's really big on spring seat pressure, which requires the heads to goto the head shop, thus the required valve job.

I'll call him tommorrow and ask the prices.

 

[svasica]

Aight man cool that would be awesome. I guess the only reason I'm asking about the chip as well is because I have driveability issues with the car at lower RPM's which I was hoping the chip might fix for me.

 

[2000xp8]

The driveability issues can be a result of a few things, first off the injectors may be a bit much, so they may require a more fine tuning of the FP, like taking out 1/2 a pound at a time.
75mm TB, also can hurt low end, along with cam choice.
And a non slip clutch can also make life a bitch on the street.

I speak from experience on most of this stuff.
My car makes a ton of power from the 2500 up, but anything less and it makes me look like i have no idea how to drive. My clutch has no give, that doesn't help things.

 

[svasica]

Well like I said the car was dyno tuned at Larocca's so right now I think the a/f ratio is where it needs to be even with the 30 pounders. When I say driveability issues I refer to the slight idle surge....the idle will not drop down so it kinda "bucks and jerks" when driving in low rpm's. I'm guessing the cam could be the reason for this.

 

[vristang]

It sounds like the last dyno tune did not involve any closed loop/part throttle work?

Do most dyno tunes include part throttle tuning as well?

I have never been to a dyno so I don't know.

jason

 

[svasica]

I think it was probably only WOT tuning, I don't remember them doin any work part throttle. What difference does this make? And who does this type of tune?

 

[vristang]

Whether or not they tuned for part throttle would matter if you are having part throttle issues.

There are 2 basic conditions that the computer will create.

Closed Loop
This is the condition when you are idling, or cruising along at part throttle. The computer is using feedback from the O2s to fine tune the a/f mixture.

Open Loop
This is when you are at WOT. The computer is ignoring the signal from the O2s. A/F ratios are determined by lookup tables programmed into the computer.
Open loop is also used for cold starts.

These are 2 very different strategies that the computer uses. You are running in either one or the other.

Tuning changes made at wot, will have minimal impact on part throttle conditions.
The problems you are having can't be fixed with wot tuning.

If you ask specifically for a part throttle tune, a shop should be able to provide it (I would think )

Not sure if that answered your question?

jason

 

[svasica]

No that actually did make sense believe it or not.

 

[svasica]

So anymore opinions on this topic? I've come to the conclusion that getting a custom cam is probably the way to go, but i'm also hearing people say that a chip will help driveability issues which i'm lookin at fixin on my car.....maybe the cam will help with that though.