Why is the LS1 so much better than a 351W?

_jb_ · Nov 27, 2005

stang2841 said:
if it takes 1600 to get your WS6 moving.. you need practice driving a manual transmission..

like 1k or 1100rpm to get it going from a stop light w/o a studder is all that was needed for me..

now my 5.0 with 3.73's you could take right off of idle..

Cliffnotes:

LS1's are fast
LS1's are boring to drive and have a power band similar to a 4cylinder (1st gear ran off to 44mph) even longer with a cam.

I've owned both.. had both cars running low 12's

I liked my stone age iron headed motor and steeper gears

the LS1 was a great car/motor but felt like a supra as opposed to a 5.0

I can go and start my WS6 in the barn, and try to move it with only 1000RPMs. It will stall

CrazyCobra · Nov 27, 2005

tjm73 said:
...The LS1 has a killer set of heads and intake. Flow something like 270ish cfm from the factory. CNC ported is like 300cfm...Trouble is those flow numbers are not available in smog legal Ford heads. And there aren't any intakes that can support the flow while maintaining emissions legality...

I believe AFR 185s do come emissions legal and will support over 500hp(at the crank).As for an intake should be somthing out there for a 351.

stang2841 · Nov 27, 2005

_jb_ - give it a shot on pavement.

CrazyCobra · Nov 27, 2005

tbadair said:
also, just because a part says "50 state legal" doesn't mean it will pass emissions sniffer. Most of those "50 state legal" tests on those parts are done on stock motors with no other mods. So when you had heads and a cam with that intake, it may no longer pass. food for thought

Good point, Making 400RWHP and staying emissions legal does pose quite a problem with out a power adder.

_jb_ · Nov 27, 2005

stang2841 said:
_jb_ - give it a shot on pavement.

So you let off the clutch to almost where it will start to roll, and then give it some gas, let out on the clutch more?

broken_joke · Nov 27, 2005

in above the talk about 450 to the wheels with a h/c/i what does that engine rev to?

69Rcode_Mach1 · Nov 27, 2005

I don't get it either, I could careless about emissions and what not. But there is no way my combo would hit 450rwhp. I will be updating the cam with a 300/310 duration .605" lift hyd roller cam, and a Victor Jr. intake, and I am hoping to get 400rwhp, which I may never get. What gives? You just don't see any 351's making that kind of power without a stroker.

Dbeck002 · Nov 27, 2005

The 5.0 and 351W were designed 50 years ago. They are built for grunt and not pure HP numbers. Yes you can make a 900 HP NA stroker on a 351 block but it would be harder as opposed to making it on an LS1.

LS1 engines are newer and completely re-designed for performance, the 5.0 being as reliable as it is, is till in comission as a performance engine. But performancewise it cannot match newer technology.

The perfect example of my point was made by stang2841, why dont i favor the LS1? because driving isnt about all HP numbers, its about driving and the enjoyment you get from it. I would enjoy driving moreso in a lightweight 5.0 with lots of torque to weight ratio than a 500 RWHP 3800 lbs camaro that makes peak torque at 4500 RPM. See where im getting at, its not all about numbers...

1BADLXCOUPE · Nov 27, 2005

Yet, you see 350 Small block Chevy's with H/C/I building that much power or close to it with there eye's closed..!!!??, its all crapola if you ask me, you think ford would have been smart and built a High performance Tech center and actually TRIED to make there engines perform and instead they gave us 302's with heads off of a truck "E7's", and a Stone age single pattern hydrolic roller cam...if there EFI was so "perfected" as they said, Why didnt ford just Add a mild EFI 351 Windsor as a Option in LX-GT fox's or a Ultra high performance 302 with GT-40 equipment if they had it built and tested like they would have years ago, because they arent like they usta be..

Chevy Kills fords in power hands down, because chevy actually woke up and Tried to build cars that built power and perform, not just to make money and thats how they designed remarkable engines like the LS1's that build excellent power and very good gas mileadge..a BRAND NEW 05 GT W/ 5-Spd will still get its butt kicked by most Stock Ls1 camaro's, doesnt matter if the camaro was Auto/stick it would still eat it up by a few car length's or more from the technology alone put into the chevy engines, cylinder Heads and cams mostly...

-korey

larrendeuce · Nov 27, 2005

You have to remember ford sells the F-150, #1 selling automobile in history.
There are cafe requirements that have to be met. Probably why they don't sell the Ford GT and the Shelby GT-500 in the same production year. The best comparison from ford to the LS1 is the 4.6 DOHC in the Mach 1.

9 Deuce GT · Nov 27, 2005

tjm73 said:
Power is all about processing air and fuel.

The LS1 has a killer set of heads and intake. Flow something like 270ish cfm from the factory. CNC ported is like 300cfm.

If you had serious flowing heads and an intake that could support that flow and cammed it correctly, you could have those numbers pretty easy.

Trouble is those flow numbers are not available in smog legal Ford heads. And there aren't any intakes that can support the flow while maintaining emissions legality.

I live near Rochester, NY and I think Geneva has the same inspections requiremetns as I do. You aren't that far away. I think you could eliminate EGR and run AFR 205's with a TrickFlow Box intake with a custom cam and easily hit 400 rwhp whiel still slipping through the inspection process since we don't sniff test in Upstate NY. You only need to pass a visual "it's there and appears to be working" test.

Here's the thing, right now they are not requiring emissions testing, but I would only like to build this once if possible. I figure if I can get good heads like AFR 185's, I would have the emissions part locked down if the laws change. I'm not sure if a port job on these heads would kill the emissions legality or not?

I have been talking with Ed Curtis about this. He said that I could easliy see 360 hp to the wheels, but he would build for more average torque, which is fine. It would be more fun on the street. I'm not really stuck on the total peak hp thing. But I see posts and ads for 400 RWHP LS6 packages and it got me thinking. Obviously 400 RWHP is achievable with a 351W, but would it be a complete dog on the street when most driving is within the 6500 RPM rev limit? I don't know. It does make sense if the LS1/6's are more of a high reving engine. I really have no experience with them. I have driven a '98 LS1 Z28, but never really got to experiment with it.

On another note, is the Spider intake emissions legal?

1SLO306 · Nov 28, 2005

I think ford does better with smaller CI engines than bigger CI engines, and chevy is the the other way around. If i was u i would just go with a 347 and either add boost or nitrous!

Side notes: Buddy with 02 WS6 m6 with lid only put down 321rwhp/336rwtq and ran a 12.99@108.9(street tires)
After full exhaust and nitrous(125 shot) put down 438rwhp/504rwtq and ran 11.8@120(street tires)

Sicarius428 · Nov 28, 2005

Both have pretty much the same power potential but the 351w will have more low end. The LS was built with performance and emissions in mind which makes it a cleaner burning engine to begin with. If you want a fair comparison, compare it to the LT. The 351W is just an pre smog old engine... what can I say...

Dbeck002 · Nov 28, 2005

1BADLXCOUPE said:
Yet, you see 350 Small block Chevy's with H/C/I building that much power or close to it with there eye's closed..!!!??, its all crapola if you ask me, you think ford would have been smart and built a High performance Tech center and actually TRIED to make there engines perform and instead they gave us 302's with heads off of a truck "E7's", and a Stone age single pattern hydrolic roller cam...if there EFI was so "perfected" as they said, Why didnt ford just Add a mild EFI 351 Windsor as a Option in LX-GT fox's or a Ultra high performance 302 with GT-40 equipment if they had it built and tested like they would have years ago, because they arent like they usta be..

Chevy Kills fords in power hands down, because chevy actually woke up and Tried to build cars that built power and perform, not just to make money and thats how they designed remarkable engines like the LS1's that build excellent power and very good gas mileadge..a BRAND NEW 05 GT W/ 5-Spd will still get its butt kicked by most Stock Ls1 camaro's, doesnt matter if the camaro was Auto/stick it would still eat it up by a few car length's or more from the technology alone put into the chevy engines, cylinder Heads and cams mostly...

-korey

And we all know what the end result was. Look at what happened to chevy, the expensive camaro couldnt sell enough so they stopped making it. We still have the mustang, whos making more power now?

Oh another thing, if ford did what you just said about introducing more "performance tech specialists" than the 5.0 would not be the funnest, cheapest car in existance to mod. Then you would cry out "why do my headers cost me 900 bucks". Just say thank you you dont drive an LS1 where every f-cking mod costs you a firstborn.

ThreeWhiteGT · Nov 28, 2005

The Trans Am's are about power, not performance. My bud's 1998 Trans Am with just exhaust and air lid ran 12.8

BUT he admits handles like absolute crap.

tjm73 · Nov 28, 2005

9 Deuce GT said:
Here's the thing, right now they are not requiring emissions testing, but I would only like to build this once if possible. I figure if I can get good heads like AFR 185's, I would have the emissions part locked down if the laws change. I'm not sure if a port job on these heads would kill the emissions legality or not?

I have been talking with Ed Curtis about this. He said that I could easliy see 360 hp to the wheels, but he would build for more average torque, which is fine. It would be more fun on the street. I'm not really stuck on the total peak hp thing. But I see posts and ads for 400 RWHP LS6 packages and it got me thinking. Obviously 400 RWHP is achievable with a 351W, but would it be a complete dog on the street when most driving is within the 6500 RPM rev limit? I don't know. It does make sense if the LS1/6's are more of a high reving engine. I really have no experience with them. I have driven a '98 LS1 Z28, but never really got to experiment with it.

On another note, is the Spider intake emissions legal?

Most laws are not retro active so I don't think your car will ever face the sniffer. However, I am curious how much $$ you are willing to spend?

TrickFlow is making CNC ported heads that still have the emissions hook ups intact....I think. Summit pn: TFS-51400004-C02 top it with TFS-515B0009 intake or TFS-515B0004 intake and a custom cam should get you real close. But it won't be cheap.

my67falcon · Nov 28, 2005

Most of these guys are right. Your comparing old and new technologies. That being said, yes it is easy to make 400 hp out of a 351 W.
'77 and older will have thicker wall castings and stronger rods. Stroking is always nice, but I'd rather be blown .
It all depends on how much you are willing to pay. Edelbrock is whom I've been going with. Have no idea what my HP is, nor can I tell you my 1/4 times. I can tell you that a stock SS is not going to keep up with me on the street, but if he was to put the same amount of money into his ride I wouldn't stand a chance. Horse Power is a never ending pursuit. The more you have the more you want, and someone will always be faster than you.
'84 351 H.O. engine. Edelbrock Performer Series carburetor, performer RPM intake. Heads ported by some hairy dude in a dank garage, Edelbrock Performer RPM camshaft kit, long tube headers, bla bla bla ....
Just buy it from here----> http://www.fordcobraengines.com/351_400Horsepower.htm

BTW _jb_ I've seen a lot of the fronts of T/As, what does the back look like?

_jb_ · Nov 29, 2005

my67falcon said:
BTW _jb_ I've seen a lot of the fronts of T/As, what does the back look like?

Ask this guy I raced with a double black 95 GT vert, 5 speed, h/c/i/e. I know he can tell you.

Dbeck002 · Nov 29, 2005

_jb_ said:
Ask this guy I raced with a double black 95 GT vert, 5 speed, h/c/i/e. I know he can tell you.

Could you have raced a heavier mustang

_jb_ · Nov 29, 2005

Dbeck002 said:
Could you have raced a heavier mustang

Yeah, an auto

Why is the LS1 so much better than a 351W?

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