Build Thread 1978 Mercury Cyclone. The pig is in the pen.

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#7,121
95BlueStallion said:
Glad you are now happy with the block. Cant remember, but are your new ring gaps still going to work?
Click to expand...

I still have to stick each ring set into each respective cylinder to tell if I'm happy with the block.
RaggedGT said:
And will they be able to handle a 100 shot?
Click to expand...
A ".100" thick cylinder wall will allow me to throw a tool box worth of power adder at them...


Noobz347 said:
And did they throw in a set of machine gun mounts for their mistake?
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Give up on the machine guns Noobz....
They fixed their mistake for free, so I'm good with it. He told me that after the old ones were cut out, you could hand press the original sized replacement in place.
So, he did what I said he was gonna do,...he bored it an additional .062 to 3.929 so that the new sleeve woul press in with a .003 interference fit.

I called the piston guy....I was thinking maybe I'll try to find a good aftermarket 6" rod ( like SBC), and have them mill the top .012 of the piston that would stick out of the block...

He asks me " why would you wanna do that?"

Uhhhh to get a forged rod?..:shrug:

"You already have forged rods in your engine" he says.....

Not from what I read and hear I reply.

He says,..He believes Ford used forged rods in their bangers all the way up into the 80's...

I tell him I don't think so..

He's pretty adamant....tells me I don't need to waste my money.

" Properly prepped rod, good bolts,...let that dog eat" he says.

( that's because he don't sell connecting rods)

Called Cometic too..Since I don't need the benefit of a MLS head gasket, I've decided to fall back to the composite gasket I had them make for me in 2015. Because the MLS gasket I have is only 3 weeks old, they're gonna let me exchange it.......for a 25% restocking fee.....of 122.00 ...... or, 30 bucks.
To get a gasket that I know won't leak, fits the head exactly with all of the mods I made to the head/block..with the water holes in the right place.
It'll be .040 thick,..Compression will be back up to 10.7:1

( unless I decide to go to a good forged rod...and have .012 milled off the piston,...which reduces the dish volume,...which raises the compression,..to what, ya think?)

Maybe I'll get the new gasket made to .060 if I do that.

And.......

I can't wait to get started....

WHY WONT ANYBODY BUY MY TURBO!!!?
 
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#7,127
Ok,...I know for a fact that the rods I have are cast.....What does that mean to me though?....Are they good for 6000 RPM?

An Eagle I beam will cost me less than 250.00 for the 6 rods. They are .060 narrower on the big end,. (that means they'll move back and forth on the journal).and .025 smaller in diameter. (I could have the crank ground to fit that though) Like I said earlier, it'll push the piston out of the hole .012. That can be dealt with too...I have massive thick crown area on my pistons,...more than enough to tolerate the cut. But compression goes up....(how much ya spose)

The small end of my rod is even wider,...looks like over an inch. But again,.the aftermarket rod is wider commensurately there too. The pin I didn't check,..but I may have opted for a chevy sized pin and had the rod bushed to allow for it.

I'd imagine with the piston cut, the difference in rod weight,..and the cut on the crankie, I'd have to have the recip assy re-balanced..( But I dont know about that yet)
I also don't know what happens when you run a rod that is narrower than the rod journal....I'm sure oil pressure will be impacted if it has the opportunity to squeeze past the rod ends,...but I can't imagine that that'll be significant.

For 250.00 plus ancillaries,I'd feel much safer about buzzing the engine,..but I still have some "book Larnin'" to do to help make sense of all of the ramifications.

Seems a fitting mod to me,....a SBC 6" rod inside my engine from many countries to help round up the one off nature of this thing....
 
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#7,131
a91what said:
Why not find a set of forged rods that actually fit.........:hide:
Click to expand...

Lets add that to the list of other "Why not's" then shall we?

Why not just get the block that works with the head?
Why not just buy an intake manifold that fits that head?
Why not use the cam that fits the engine?
Why not use a timing chain that fits that cam?
Why not use the harmonic balancer that fits that engine?
Why not use the ignition that came with the engine,...The oil pump,...The rockers, the valves, the lifters,.....

You really wanna go there?
 
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#7,133
CarMichael Angelo said:
Lets add that to the list of other "Why not's" then shall we?

Why not just get the block that works with the head?
Why not just buy an intake manifold that fits that head?
Why not use the cam that fits the engine?
Why not use a timing chain that fits that cam?
Why not use the harmonic balancer that fits that engine?
Why not use the ignition that came with the engine,...The oil pump,...The rockers, the valves, the lifters,.....

You really wanna go there?
Click to expand...
Aaaannnndddd what fun would that be?
 
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#7,134
Man, I saw this and thought of Tanner, but all the SBC rod talk has it jumping out of my phone picture album into this thread too.

FB_IMG_1515121450399.webp
 
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#7,135
CarMichael Angelo said:
Lets add that to the list of other "Why not's" then shall we?

Why not just get the block that works with the head?
Why not just buy an intake manifold that fits that head?
Why not use the cam that fits the engine?
Why not use a timing chain that fits that cam?
Why not use the harmonic balancer that fits that engine?
Why not use the ignition that came with the engine,...The oil pump,...The rockers, the valves, the lifters,.....

You really wanna go there?
Click to expand...
Ahh no not really.... :shrug:
 
#7,136
95BlueStallion said:
Man, I saw this and thought of Tanner, but all the SBC rod talk has it jumping out of my phone picture album into this thread too.

FB_IMG_1515121450399.webp
Click to expand...
All of that SBC rod talk?....

You're gonna make me do this again?

BBC rockers
BBC beehive springs.
BBC exhaust valves (used as intakes)
SBC exhaust valves (used as exhaust valves)
SBC water pump.
SBC external oil pump...

How many of these am I gonna have to do before you guys understand that the monster is a product of of 1950's thermo-nuclear testing......and a jegs/summit product catalog.
 
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#7,137
Score the Heptad.

Seventh wave. I'd use SBC conrods.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2eWHNSaSZU


Worked for Nizpro's Ford Facon XR6 Twin Cam turbo. Reving to over 7200 rpm after the 1000 rpm tune up run, the Motec EFi, 25 pound boost, 1163 hp at 6500 rpm 2004 dyno effort used

a custom Crankshaft Rebuilders crank.

IIRC, the crank was a common XT5 General Motors Holden casting, but machined to the bigger Intech SOHC/ Barra DOHC 2.65" main and 2.126" rod journal size. This was way up from 2.499" and 1.899" respective crank sizes, which also had the 0.866 wrist pin con rod.

This gave Nizpro the option of going to the 1980-1985 Holdens 12 counterweights, but Chevy Small block journal width, fillet radius.

Conrods were Chevy SB 6" conrods
20 thou over 3.642" forged pistons with Subaru piston rings,
A fully sleeved No 1 cylinder.

Okay, the 60 thou smaller SBC conrod width issue. Yes, this is a real I6 issue. For bent sixes and eights with the 90 degree V6 and V8 conrods, they locate with better control due to them generally sharing the rod journal. The journals are closer to the rod, and the rod on V8's self locates better

Buick and Chevy even fire V6's pushed the rod location issues.

When I got the forged mixed 229 and 305 11 cc dish pistons from a Supercharged Valiant with Chev 229 campaigner, the V6 pistons had a 70 thou off set to clear the semi even fire 18 deg or even fire 30 deg rod flange. The 90 degree Chev V6 lifters were offset too. In the V 6 Performance: Pat Ganahl: 9780931472138 book ,

pg_v6_performance_001.webp


IIRC, Page 41-43, Chapter 3 on the 90 degree Small Block Chevy V6.

pg_v6_performance_002.webp


Grumpy Jenkins said that the flange was just a positive location and casting part that could be removed altogether, the way I read it he implied the two V8 rods but together in some cases. What he didn't say was this.

It's an issue if you go too big in side to side clearance for sure. What hapens is this:

1. the side to drift occurs when the oil pressure and engine warmth increases.

2. The rods then can then potentially "slap" the crank fillet (either side) after the oil gets hot. V8 guys find this happens on occassion with stroker or aftermarket cranks.

3. The solution is two machined aluminum thrust washers on both sides of the inside of the the wrist pinof each piston. With those, any larger clearance due to bigger journal widths or smaller conrod widths is able to be brought back. On a nodular iron cast Ford crank, always Limit the side to side rod drift to 20 thou maximum, similar to the BBC maximum. 8 to 16 thou is coomon, but aftermarket con rods, it goes to 24 thou real quick.

An aftermarket crank or narrower conrod is enough to cause the clearances to be out.

People who make the modern mass produced Stroker nodular iron or even the more expensive forged steel cranks have designed in a quality price tradeoff...spitting them out with the best reliablity is what upping the rate of prodction does. Noramlly, the crank journals are wlee contolled for width, so any variance in clearance is due to conrod widths. If you are making cranks and rods, then both can be and often are 6-8 thou wider than stock to avoid fillet radius issues and make the radius easier to treat.

Many after market Rods (especially Scat, Eagle Chev ones ) tend to be 6-8 thou narrower than stock for width. Most are paired con rods, with each side different.

Stock Ford Ozzie rod development is like this.

VERSION 1.0 They stayed 5.885" forged steel from the first 250 in 1971 to the last in 1992. Just like the 1968-1976 250 US Fords.
V 1.1 Then the Ozzie rod stayed the same for SOHC's for the next few years from 1993 to 1997.5, although it had metric bolts, IIRC.

V1.2 The rod then became 6.058" long, but still foged with the same bolts from 1998 to 2003.

V1.3The 2003 BA had a turbo option, and the turbo rods had an extra oil hole drilled through the existing forged rod.
V1.4 In 2006, the F6 came out, with 362 to 416 hp, and it got further beefed up I beam sections in its rods. On over boost, it made more than 465 hp.

But despite all this, the Nizpro guys used Chev SB 6" V8 conrods on its 1000 hp plus engines.
 
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#7,138
*Sigh*

I get it....I can buy the 6" long rods for about 35.00 ea.
esp-6000bb-1_w.webp

I then have to pay somebody to machine the .012 off of the pistons that'll stick up out of the bore.
I then have to pay somebody for a set of buttons to positively locate that rod in the cylinder so the big end wont move around on the journal.
I then have to pay somebody to balance the recip assy again for the difference in the new rod weight vs the current ones.
I then have to pay somebody to cut the crank down to accommodate the smaller diameter big end....

Or I can run what I got. (with one exception)

Or,.....I buy those Aussie H beams that look like they'll fit directly from Mace in Australia (allow 4 weeks for delivery)

Why would I need a rod rated to 1200 hp on an engine that won't make a quarter of that power ?
s-l1600.webp

or I can run what I got.( with one exception)

Or,....I can actually buy the stock rod that is forged for 37.00 ea.
upload_2018-1-6_7-49-41.webp

upload_2018-1-6_7-48-20.webp


And I'll have to transfer my bolts out of the cast rods to the new, reconditioned ones,
And then have to pay to have them re-installed and possibly have the big end reworked.
And then have to pay to have the small end bushed to fit my pin.
And then have to spend several hours grinding, polishing the beams, and take them to a reconditioning shop.
And then have to pay to have them shot peened.
And then have to pay to have them balanced to match the old ones.

Or,....I can run what I got.:shrug:

The one exception is, that I cannot get the #5 rod cap back on w/o forcing it. It's like the rod end has expanded, and now you have to force the cap on....somethings wrong with this rod,...I need to have it checked.
 

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