Build Thread '83 T-top Coupe - Welding Holes in My Rear

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Yeah Chris, it seems just like the other day, doesn’t it?

Except this mustang is mine free and clear!

I don’t know if I want to do the home spun kind like last time or just buy a kit. Lots of thinking to do on this one.

Hell, I might still go with an IRS, it’s just those 315’s look so nice!
 
Drag racing is definitely going to be better with the TA. I could have had a pretty clean IRS 3 years ago for about $750. But like they say, he who hesitates is lost. Now it's hard to find a ragged out IRS for less than $1300. A heavy duty TA and panhard from MM is less than that and a lot easier to deal with.
 
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The Ford IRS in the result of extensive playoffs between Dearborn (FoMoCo) and Russelhiem (and Fishermans Bend Australia. The benchmark for it was the 1978 Opel Senator/Monza semi trailing arm IRS, which Peter Brock, the Australian race car identity who ran HDT fitted up for Australian conditions with a Corvette C3 IRS center, and then Holden set it up with a 9 Bolt BTR 78/Camaro/Firbird G52 axle center in 1989 for the Vauxhall Lotus Charlton and the first HSV Holden Commodore VP Senator. Although just a Caddillac Cartera underneath, the IRS was extensively reworked with Wissach Geometery and, eventually, lower links just like the 190 E Meceades Benz.

The Mustang awaited 19 years to get a proper Jaguar style upper and lower wishbone IRS. Ford Australia developed its IRS about the same time for the 1998 AU Falcon. Ford developes better mouse traps because it looks at the quality/price tradeoff, and for the IRS, its note something most Americans would notice. They don't notice...Just how good it is. The Fox started off with an IFS and steering system the benchmark in the industry. They cheaped out on the four link rear end because its really just a 1970 Taunus/Cortina copy with a little more refinement, which was based on the GM V and F cars, the Commodre A and FD Victor, benchmark four lnk rar end cars dating from 1966. The Fox Four bar live axle creates the problems the team from Heidts notes....reduce roll stiffness, suden under to over steer transitions, and the induced roll over steer common on V car Oples, Holdens and Vauxhalls without the IRS. Back to back comparisons were done by Wheels Editor Peter Robinson, Modern Motors Barry Lake, and then GM's Milbrock engineers with the Opel Senator/Monza IRS fitted. The result is always the same....IRS reduces body roll, redueces transitional roll stear (normally reducing over steer while keeping or reducing understeer on entry. Under racing conditions, you avoid curbing, as it the rear end causes what feels like rampant bump steer, but on an IRS car, its able to cope with a stunning amount of rear end oval track curb contact.

The only negative with IRS is the Hummer style driveline shunt that occurs with a stick shift Fox in very hard traffic conditions, and in some situations where there is construction join contact. This is called impact harshness, bit its actually drivelije shunt. If a car has a De Dion axle, or a live axle, the drive line shunt can be very moderate. In a bad example, that of the first C3 Corvette IRS, driveline shunt can break axles and make drag strip launches hard. Some Aston Martions had the Corveete Salisbury 8.5 axle center with a De Dion axle assmbly, a half IRS combination with a Live rear axle, but separte CV jointed half shafts. They constanly break under loads. Control Blade IRS from the Focus, BA -FG Falcon, are probably better, but they don't dovetail into the Fox frame rails like the 1999-2004 Cobra style IRS does

The Ford IRS is very well regarded, but , like the progression to four wheel disc brakes and integrated headlamps, the progression to IRS in a series production Rear drive car was always very low on the priority list.


Remember, Fords first IRS was supposed to be the 1965 Mustang IRS option, using the Jaguars Spicer/Salisbury axle center as per the Stingray, but with a few changes to this American built axle center.


Insteead, the first proper Ford Rear drive IRS was the in UK in 1966 with the Mark IV Ford Zephyr Zodiac (not a good one at all), and then with the Granada Mark I of 1971 (Much better), and for pure rear drivers, the US 1989 MN12 Tbird and Cougar twins. The GT40 was a Lola IRS with a Coloti /ZF DS or KarKraft T 44 derived transaxle. Mid engined, so its system wasn't really in the hunt for rear drive front engine cars.

Ford had already picked up Jaguar, (XJ40 rear ended XJ-S) and Aston Martin (XJ-S based DB7), and the cumulative expertese poured into the Fox 4 unibody IRS modification was compared to the very best. Actually, the MN12 was the best IRS to date on those, the Jag IRS has some other issues. The Cobra IRS was very much case of linking the Fox chassis hard points to the best geometric solutions to getting IRS at a reasonable cost.

Every Fox should have this IRS, its highly under rated because its not normal for US cars to have to deal with European or Australian style mid corner bumps, or have to tow a 1.5 ton brakes trailer hithc like the Aussies did when re-developing the German Opel and Ford Falcon IRS back in the late 80's. The Mustang IRS is exceptional.


To have it removed from the options list for the S197, well, that was a budget matter, and the S shell was colsely associated with the Jaguar X and S and LATER European Mondeo underneath. As the enormity of General Motors debt hit home before the Sub prime crisis started bleeding money out of the US economy before the 2008 GFC, Ford Dearborn axed plans to use the Falcon IRS platform, and the Fox 4/SN98 IRS is still the best around for the dollars.
 
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The Ford IRS in the result of extensive playoffs between Dearborn (FoMoCo) and Russelhiem (and Fishermans Bend Australia. The benchmark for it was the 1978 Opel Senator/Monza semi trailing arm IRS, which Peter Brock, the Australian race car identity who ran HDT fitted up for Australian conditions with a Corvette C3 IRS center, and then Holden set it up with a 9 Bolt BTR 78/Camaro/Firbird G52 axle center in 1989 for the Vauxhall Lotus Charlton and the first HSV Holden Commodore VP Senator. Although just a Caddillac Cartera underneath, the IRS was extensively reworked with Wissach Geometery and, eventually, lower links just like the 190 E Meceades Benz.

The Mustang awaited 19 years to get a proper Jaguar style upper and lower wishbone IRS. Ford Australia developed its IRS about the same time for the 1998 AU Falcon. Ford developes better mouse traps because it looks at the quality/price tradeoff, and for the IRS, its note something most Americans would notice. They don't notice...Just how good it is. The Fox started off with an IFS and steering system the benchmark in the industry. They cheaped out on the four link rear end because its really just a 1970 Taunus/Cortina copy with a little more refinement, which was based on the GM V and F cars, the Commodre A and FD Victor, benchmark four lnk rar end cars dating from 1966. The Fox Four bar live axle creates the problems the team from Heidts notes....reduce roll stiffness, suden under to over steer transitions, and the induced roll over steer common on V car Oples, Holdens and Vauxhalls without the IRS. Back to back comparisons were done by Wheels Editor Peter Robinson, Modern Motors Barry Lake, and then GM's Milbrock engineers with the Opel Senator/Monza IRS fitted. The result is always the same....IRS reduces body roll, redueces transitional roll stear (normally reducing over steer while keeping or reducing understeer on entry. Under racing conditions, you avoid curbing, as it the rear end causes what feels like rampant bump steer, but on an IRS car, its able to cope with a stunning amount of rear end oval track curb contact.

The only negative with IRS is the Hummer style driveline shunt that occurs with a stick shift Fox in very hard traffic conditions, and in some situations where there is construction join contact. This is called impact harshness, bit its actually drivelije shunt. If a car has a De Dion axle, or a live axle, the drive line shunt can be very moderate. In a bad example, that of the first C3 Corvette IRS, driveline shunt can break axles and make drag strip launches hard. Some Aston Martions had the Corveete Salisbury 8.5 axle center with a De Dion axle assmbly, a half IRS combination with a Live rear axle, but separte CV jointed half shafts. They constanly break under loads. Control Blade IRS from the Focus, BA -FG Falcon, are probably better, but they don't dovetail into the Fox frame rails like the 1999-2004 Cobra style IRS does

The Ford IRS is very well regarded, but , like the progression to four wheel disc brakes and integrated headlamps, the progression to IRS in a series production Rear drive car was always very low on the priority list.


Remember, Fords first IRS was supposed to be the 1965 Mustang IRS option, using the Jaguars Spicer/Salisbury axle center as per the Stingray, but with a few changes to this American built axle center.


Insteead, the first proper Ford Rear drive IRS was the in UK in 1966 with the Mark IV Ford Zephyr Zodiac (not a good one at all), and then with the Granada Mark I of 1971 (Much better), and for pure rear drivers, the US 1989 MN12 Tbird and Cougar twins. The GT40 was a Lola IRS with a Coloti /ZF DS or KarKraft T 44 derived transaxle. Mid engined, so its system wasn't really in the hunt for rear drive front engine cars.

Ford had already picked up Jaguar, (XJ40 rear ended XJ-S) and Aston Martin (XJ-S based DB7), and the cumulative expertese poured into the Fox 4 unibody IRS modification was compared to the very best. Actually, the MN12 was the best IRS to date on those, the Jag IRS has some other issues. The Cobra IRS was very much case of linking the Fox chassis hard points to the best geometric solutions to getting IRS at a reasonable cost.

Every Fox should have this IRS, its highly under rated because its not normal for US cars to have to deal with European or Australian style mid corner bumps, or have to tow a 1.5 ton brakes trailer hithc like the Aussies did when re-developing the German Opel and Ford Falcon IRS back in the late 80's. The Mustang IRS is exceptional.


To have it removed from the options list for the S197, well, that was a budget matter, and the S shell was colsely associated with the Jaguar X and S and LATER European Mondeo underneath. As the enormity of General Motors debt hit home before the Sub prime crisis started bleeding money out of the US economy before the 2008 GFC, Ford Dearborn axed plans to use the Falcon IRS platform, and the Fox 4/SN98 IRS is still the best around for the dollars.
Alright Dean, maybe you might have a quick answer to this one then.

Will the S550 IRS fit on a fox body without major surgery to it?
 
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Ok, I googled for a while.......the newer IRS is out.

I can appreciate the benefits of an IRS, yet an SRA will allow for a much larger tire.

Still, I have time to contemplate. MM does have nice upgrades for an IRS, they also have nice upgrades for an SRA.

I'll keep cruising craigslist just in case an IRS shows it's self for sale.
 
Ok, I googled for a while.......the newer IRS is out.

I can appreciate the benefits of an IRS, yet an SRA will allow for a much larger tire.

Still, I have time to contemplate. MM does have nice upgrades for an IRS, they also have nice upgrades for an SRA.

I'll keep cruising craigslist just in case an IRS shows it's self for sale.
How will a cheap IRS change the fact that you cannot get a decent sized tire underneath? I always found it to be a oxymoron when people go through the whole BS process to convert over to IRS for the potential increased handling benefit, only to be hobbled by a small tire choice when it's all done.

There are chapters dedicated to making a conventional solid rear axle work in everything form a purpose built drag car, to a purpose built road course car, and every step in between. Why anybody goes through the process to end up with a 255 x 17 tire is still amazing to me.
 
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The normal scenario of Fox V8 351 death.... chassis bending, roll over steer, and over cookin' it on 9 " rims with sticky rubber.


The state of the art for axles, was Fords 1963 Galaxie Panhard rod and coil axles, what a three link becomes. NASCAR, um, NASTRUCK style.


Drag racers use live axles because a fully floating 35 spline axle is safer, cheaper, and easier to service, with no extra intelligence required.

Wheel patter is the IRS problem, and its solved by understanding the problem, and fixing the dampening problem. Normally, just a quick reacting shock absorber stiffener will keep violent wheel hop in check. Adjustable shocks have been around for yonks, Mazda put them in 626's in 1984. Now theres Magnetic Ride shocks, and all thats needed is a shock rebound control stiffener, which changes your shokcers bounce and rebound rate under launch. This is a specfic issue which has been used as an excuse not to IRS your Fox since Fords 2005 non IRS option S197.


The NVH issue has forced Ford to rubber mount the IRS, and that's another problem as the parts age.


The wheel width issue, thats just laziness as the issues are cradle durabilty and longievity related. The cradle and bushes need to be upgraded

https://www.svtperformance.com/foru...the-cobra-independent-rear-suspension.610897/

See here and below, the upper mount looses 1-1/2" of wheel width.



IMG_0899.webp


MRJOSHUA_IRS.webp


Solution is a proper upper mount. The four or five cradles around, and Ford did a lot of different ones, are better off custom made to suit the 315 wheels. Altough a good idea, the cradles always suffer from internal rust, and all IRS cradles need some proper thought. Every new step forward, presents its own challenges, but its not a reason to shrink back. Hit something really hard, and the IRS cardle is junk.


The S550 frame rails are totally different as its another floor pressing. Its three generations onwards from the 1978 chassis.

The SN95 Fox 4 and the new Edge shared about 30% of the Fox chassis core structure hard points.


Hard pressing engineering is a lot different in this day of platform sharing and crash engineering. Nothing is 100% the same, but nothing is a clean sheet design either, despite what Ford says. With the S197 and S550, Ford did some partial platform sharing with the Jaguar S type (S197) and then downgraded the chassis kick to suit the live axle for 2005, and then reworked another platform to get the S550. Although listed as new designs, the S550 pressings are modified from other production pieces.



The Fox IRS has some restrictions in wheel envelope due to the upper outer frame mounts . On a Fox, you can solid mount the cradle.


Without the use of fender flares or hard mounting the rear of the IRS to the subframe you are restricted to 245's or 255's with the combination of a fender lip roll. If converting to a hard mount its possible to use up to a 315 wide tires.

The pictures below are from Mr Jacob, and show a loss of 1.5" of clearance due to the bracket and stock bolt used to mate the Cobra IRS.


IMG_0927.webp


IMG_0928.webp


IMG_0929.webp
 
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So a hard tail mount is the main limiting factor for a wide wheel and tire?

I really haven’t studied this thorough enough. Today I’ll start looking at it deeper.

Then there’s still the issue of finding one, though I think that just takes patience as well.
 
So a hard tail mount is the main limiting factor for a wide wheel and tire?

I really haven’t studied this thorough enough. Today I’ll start looking at it deeper.

Then there’s still the issue of finding one, though I think that just takes patience as well.
Best advice I would give you Dave is to make a decision on which type of rear suspension you want now. You don't want to be changing things 2-3 different times because you will get frustrated like many of us quickly.

You have a good amount of work ahead of you and time flys by that you can be searching for just the right IRS for your car in no time. Just don't stop progress searching for one later and start now if that's what you really want.
 
Hummmmmm......

When I get down to what this car will be doing, daily driving duties and at best a hit or two or three at the drag strip, I think SRA would be the way to go for me.

I won't be road racing, though I do enjoy a car that can handle turns. Is that enough to consider an IRS?

There are many things a person can do to an IRS to make it even better than just bushings. Kenny Brown has some nice lower control arms.

I'm starting the talk about this because this summer i'm replacing the floor pan, front subframe and torque boxes this summer. This is the time to consider seriously the rear end.

I will be doing a form of @Hoytster 's through the floor connectors and wild rides torque boxes. While the undercarriage is completely stripped down, this would be the right time to consider the IRS, especially the hard tail conversion. My car is too early to have the dampening shock mounts in the frame. So I would need to consider the lateral strength for mounting the hard tail and what inner frame support it would need.
 
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Sounds like a lot of work for a DD type cruiser. My '11 GT with a watts link and SRA handled like it was on rails, Dave. You can make a live axle have good street manners pretty easily.

There are plenty of examples of high level road track cars that are very competitve with SRAs as well.

Im not knocking anyone that swapped, it certainly has its benefits. I just think from a cost and ease stand point, you can make your SRA and wide wheels work much easier.
 
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I haven't done the hard tail on my car yet. Even with a hard tail conversion you are still limited by the IRS cradle. The issue is the points where the upper control arm mounts. I haven't seen anyone tub an IRS fox. That would mean almost completely redesigning the cradle.

The only option ( at that point )is to go wider. Fender flares are really the only option to get really wide tires on any IRS fox.

There are guys that squeeze 315s on non tubbed foxes with nothing more than a BFH and aftermarket control arms. I have yet to see a 315 on an IRS car. I want a 335....so.....
 
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