Build Thread 1978 Mercury Cyclone. The pig is in the pen.

droopie85gt · Sep 27, 2017

Just found this info online. Seems electric pumps and exhaust evac are both limited in the vacuum they pull.

"In testing for pure vacuum, rather than airflow, they only made about 1.5" of mercury on a vacuum gauge. I also tested a Pontiac electrical pump that made about 3", which is about the same as what you would get out of a header pan-evac system. At best the electric pumps I've tested are about equivalent to a pan-evac system."

http://www.dragstuff.com/techarticles/vacuum-pumps.html

I knew I had seen a writeup on the Corral by someone who made their own electric evac pump:

http://forums.corral.net/forums/drag-racing/1738897-my-custom-electric-crankcase-evac.html

And for good measure, a hybrid electric/pcv system

http://grannys.tripod.com/evac.html

I think I had seen this before because it has a link to the CLUTCH TAMER. I need my clutch tamed.

xecute · Sep 28, 2017

Discussed a while back with your car as a specfic example.

The problem is nature abours a vacuum, so its time to don the Gordons Patent Atmospheric Diving Suit,

and address the lake of back pressure down stream of the turbo.

Your Vac Pump advice given is right on. It'll take more than just an 38 pound per hour air pump to create the kind of scavenging a good normally aspirated engine's exhaust can manage.

Turbo's are a major problem, they don't scavenge unless you try adding a down stream injecter and fuel it to create a jet engine that shares its combustion chamber with a piston engine. To make it copy a non turbo engine, you have to use a scheme where the pump can supply more volume. A P51 Rolls Royce Merlin cabin blower used to be around at scapr merchents, and they were like a small Eaton M62. Something with 62 cubic inches per would do it. You might need to give the system you have a little bit of a hand.

Ferrari did this on the F1 120 degree V6 to create a special kind of anti lag device. Adding a spark plug helps. Sort of like a Tex Smith Flame Thrower...

Get this book if you can.

Amazon product ASIN 0854297324View: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tuning-British-Leylands-Series-Engine/dp/0854297324

Tuning British Leyland's 'A' Series Engine Hardcover – Aug 1989

The problem with your high rpm air fuel ratio swing is blow by.

The way to fix it is to remove it by an evacusump system, two 5/8" PCV valves to the intake manifold from the rocker cover.

And then two anti back fire valves flowing in excess of 18 cfm each from the lower turbo manifold flange to a dedicated rocker cover catch can.

David Vizard described on in pages 398 and 399 of his second edition of modifying BMCs A series engine, and discussed Turbo applications specfically. Diagrams 15.2a, and 15.2 nail the sysyem down.

Its also covered in

How-to-Modify-Ford-s-o-h-c-Engines-David-Vizard

View: http://www.scribd.com/doc/26804743/How-to-Modify-Ford-s-o-h-c-Engines-David-Vizard#scribd

Turboed

Chapter 11 (Not halfway to bankruptcy)

Page 135_dv_sohc_pinto_turbo_Evacusump

Normally Aspirated
Chapter 8,

Page 116

Fig_8_3_dv_sohc_pinto

In the A series 2nd Edition book, DV said that blow by from valves and pistons collectively defines remaining engine life. An Evacusump system should pull 1.85 to 2.65 inches of Hg suction at operating temperature. When the figure drops below that, it only has 15 to 30 minutes more operation time at full load.

Only probelm is he was talking normally aspirated as being the only system that scaveged enough....your gonna have to add some kind of Secondary air down stream air pump that gives you the pounds per hour you need. An 80's stock V8 air pump is 31 pounds per hour, an F700 truck 370 is 38 pounds per hour.

CarMichael Angelo · Sep 28, 2017

droopie85gt said:
Just found this info online. Seems electric pumps and exhaust evac are both limited in the vacuum they pull.

"In testing for pure vacuum, rather than airflow, they only made about 1.5" of mercury on a vacuum gauge. I also tested a Pontiac electrical pump that made about 3", which is about the same as what you would get out of a header pan-evac system. At best the electric pumps I've tested are about equivalent to a pan-evac system."

http://www.dragstuff.com/techarticles/vacuum-pumps.html

I knew I had seen a writeup on the Corral by someone who made their own electric evac pump:

http://forums.corral.net/forums/drag-racing/1738897-my-custom-electric-crankcase-evac.html

And for good measure, a hybrid electric/pcv system

http://grannys.tripod.com/evac.html

I think I had seen this before because it has a link to the CLUTCH TAMER. I need my clutch tamed.

xecute said:
Discussed a while back with your car as a specfic example.

The problem is nature abours a vacuum, so its time to don the Gordons Patent Atmospheric Diving Suit,

and address the lake of back pressure down stream of the turbo.

Your Vac Pump advice given is right on. It'll take more than just an 38 pound per hour air pump to create the kind of scavenging a good normally aspirated engine's exhaust can manage.

Turbo's are a major problem, they don't scavenge unless you try adding a down stream injecter and fuel it to create a jet engine that shares its combustion chamber with a piston engine. To make it copy a non turbo engine, you have to use a scheme where the pump can supply more volume. A P51 Rolls Royce Merlin cabin blower used to be around at scapr merchents, and they were like a small Eaton M62. Something with 62 cubic inches per would do it. You might need to give the system you have a little bit of a hand.

Ferrari did this on the F1 120 degree V6 to create a special kind of anti lag device. Adding a spark plug helps. Sort of like a Tex Smith Flame Thrower...

Get this book if you can.

Amazon product ASIN 0854297324View: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tuning-British-Leylands-Series-Engine/dp/0854297324

Tuning British Leyland's 'A' Series Engine Hardcover – Aug 1989

The problem with your high rpm air fuel ratio swing is blow by.

The way to fix it is to remove it by an evacusump system, two 5/8" PCV valves to the intake manifold from the rocker cover.

And then two anti back fire valves flowing in excess of 18 cfm each from the lower turbo manifold flange to a dedicated rocker cover catch can.

David Vizard described on in pages 398 and 399 of his second edition of modifying BMCs A series engine, and discussed Turbo applications specfically. Diagrams 15.2a, and 15.2 nail the sysyem down.

Its also covered in

How-to-Modify-Ford-s-o-h-c-Engines-David-Vizard

View: http://www.scribd.com/doc/26804743/How-to-Modify-Ford-s-o-h-c-Engines-David-Vizard#scribd

Turboed

Chapter 11 (Not halfway to bankruptcy)

Page 135_dv_sohc_pinto_turbo_Evacusump

Normally Aspirated
Chapter 8,

Page 116

Fig_8_3_dv_sohc_pinto

In the A series 2nd Edition book, DV said that blow by from valves and pistons collectively defines remaining engine life. An Evacusump system should pull 1.85 to 2.65 inches of Hg suction at operating temperature. When the figure drops below that, it only has 15 to 30 minutes more operation time at full load.

Only probelm is he was talking normally aspirated as being the only system that scaveged enough....your gonna have to add some kind of Secondary air down stream air pump that gives you the pounds per hour you need. An 80's stock V8 air pump is 31 pounds per hour, an F700 truck 370 is 38 pounds per hour.

Well,......that's sobering.

Now what?

I got my inspiration for this evac system plan from that granny's tripod link...only I'm not using the elec pump obviously.

(But my system won't even show 1" of canister vacuum at idle.......FAIL)

The more I research electric smog pumps,.the more it becomes obvious that they are not a permanent, or adequate solution.

( I am not the only guy that has a turbo system here....how is everybody else dealing with this?)

I have to find a way to create artificial vacuum now...and it looks like the only real way is gonna involve a belt driven pump.

( But there is absolutely zero room for any additional belt driven accessory, or room on the drive mandrel for a v groove pulley)

I need to get creative here...I have to find a way to electrically create enough of a suction to seal this damn engine. Two days in the toilet..it's like I'm working on the hood again...

CarMichael Angelo · Sep 28, 2017

Well...I defied the odds.

I went ahead and finished my Home Depot evac system..

The problem today was, and still is,..you cannot find a PCV valve that's not either:

A. A piece of flaming sht.
B. The ends aren't the same ID/OD.

I went back to Oreillys again, because I'm stupid. I had a list.

Some heater hose, some PCV hose, a couple of brass 90 degree pipe nipples, and an inline PCV valve....preferably with the same 3/8" barbs on both ends.

They had everything else except a single PCV valve. MOF none of the " wannabe" auto parts stores had one.

I had to go to NAPA to get one. But one end was 1/2",....and when you blew in the one end...( the one that you shouldn't be able to blow through.........)

You could.

Which meant that I'd lose boost pressure into my HD canister.

Nobody has what I need except the aftermarket,..and that piece is several days away..I can buy a hand made one way check valve from Amazon. I currently have one of these in my pwr brake booster line.

It costs 10 bucks. It says that it's intended as a one way valve for fluids, but I know they make these thins for air as well...maybe it doesn't matter?

Anyway,..I go forward.. I paint my ugly little evac canister, and mow the lawn while it dries...

( Wait,.......didn't this guy have both knees replaced 1 month ago tomorrow?...he can't have meant mowed the lawn...maybe it's a typo.)

Nope,...I mowed the Monday to Friday, Monkey Fightin, Lawn!

When I get done, my step child is dry. I bolt him in place, and hook the lines to it. Despite the fact that I do not have a PCV valve, I hook the line up,..and start the car.

I remove the oil fill cap,...no vapor. Matter of fact,..I have a slight negative suction.

My braided -12 that used to be on top is a casualty of not having the right 120* hose end. I had these push lock things,..and for now it's gonna have to do. When I'm back at work, I'll justify the 40.00 for a 120* hose end at that time.

So the car idles just like it always has,..except this started happening:

Water vapor. For the first time since I've had this car,..it is actually burning off that vapor crap that is inside my crankcase that made my oil look like chocolate milk in the old breather system and lines.

The engine idles at 19" of vacuum,..it appears at first glance that I have got a way to control the crankcase at idle and cruise....now...hopefully, when the engine sees boost ( which is decidedly the rarer of the two charges the evac canister should see) the excess pressure will push out into the exhaust. Boost will force the PCV valve closed, and excess crankcase pressure should just move into my exhaust...As soon as I lift,..negative pressure returns,..PCV will work again,..maybe this will work.

All I know is that I ran the car up to 190.

This is what isn't under there.

Nothin but dry floor.

a91what · Sep 28, 2017

Hmmm..... now I may have to make a catch can setup like this one.... except no exhaust scavenging..... Great job Mike you made a pvc can that doesn't look like poo

95BlueStallion · Sep 28, 2017

Look at you go Macgyver!

CarMichael Angelo · Sep 28, 2017

Tomorrow, I'm making the PCV valve. I gotta plan.

I'm also gonna test how much air pressure is required to push into the exhaust stream...both from a non-running, and running over several RPM bands.

My idle mind has me worried tha exhaust back pressure in the pipe has to be overcome before the canister can vent into it....

a91what · Sep 28, 2017

I think you will find it does work. Maybe. Well hopefully or your gonna have to redo it again.

droopie85gt · Sep 28, 2017

You cut the grass. Holy Fing sheet, man. I wouldn't want to be the lowly pcv valve. That turd is going down. I almost started feeling bad that I am 47 and make my 16 year old cut the grass. But then I remember it's usually 97 and 80% humidity....so that's $20 well spent for me!

I did search and read a bunch more about boosted engine pcv systems online. #1 evidently LS engines have a lot of pcv issues. #2 everyone on the friggin internet is an expert and should write books about tuning engines, turbos and pcv systems.

95BlueStallion · Sep 28, 2017

a91what said:
I think you will find it does work. Maybe. Well hopefully or your gonna have to redo it again.

Awe sht, now V 2 is going to be coming up next.

xecute · Sep 29, 2017

I'm thinking the way forward is to just get enough vacuum to pull 5cfm at wide open throttle, equal to the worst blow by you'll get from the crankcase.

From what I see, there is "just enough" room to drop your PowerMaster 140A alternator

and hook up a GM origin Isuzu NPR Hiatchi alternator vacuum pump on the back of it. For the ast 25 years, I've driven a diet of diesel Jap trucks, and these are normally equiped with low amp 70 to 80 amp alternators, not much chop for powering up your little Japanese Clarion...um, stereo...

Key thing is the low rent vac pump hookup.

My Nissan Diesel engined 78 Falcon 500

and my 2 liter Toyota Diesel

had stock looking 80 amp alternators like this

But piggy backing it, since the shaft is straight through, they had this:-

all that Die Sel and Exchange Jap Sh!+ have vac pumps on the back of the alternator to run the old brake booster.

xecute · Sep 29, 2017

One last point. In the first or second edition of his turbo charging book,

Anti lag was first, IMHO, effectively discribed in a narrative by Hugh MacInnes in a California spec Turbo Toyota 18R conversion. It still used the air pump, and the air pump made 25 cfm, applied upstream before the turbo.

Hugh describe it as "money form home".

I'm thinking that somehow, you can use the bare minimum of space you have to use an existing pulley as a back drive, sort of what the Hart BDA Escorts used to drive the alternator. Even a jack shaft right to the back on the engine

hoopty5.0 · Sep 29, 2017

What is a jack shaft?

Noobz347 · Sep 29, 2017

hoopty5.0 said:
What is a jack shaft?

Does Jill have one too?

( you have to ask these things these days )

General karthief · Sep 29, 2017

Jack used to be jill.

hoopty5.0 · Sep 29, 2017

Noobz347 said:
Does Jill have one too?

( you have to ask these things these days )

A shaft can be inverted too, so yes, yes she does.

droopie85gt · Sep 29, 2017

This thread is so nasty. Jack shafts, suction, blow by, sex changes...OH MY!

I figured the Monster Lair would have some Race Deck or similar on the floor by now! Or at least a nice epoxy coating.

Black1987 · Sep 29, 2017

madmike1157 said:
Well...I defied the odds.

It costs 10 bucks. It says that it's intended as a one way valve for fluids, but I know they make these thins for air as well...maybe it doesn't matter?

.

Mike you can't use steam tables for ideal gas law problems lol.....engineer joke disregard

Interested in how this will work out.

CarMichael Angelo · Sep 29, 2017

xecute said:
One last point. In the first or second edition of his turbo charging book,

Anti lag was first, IMHO, effectively discribed in a narrative by Hugh MacInnes in a California spec Turbo Toyota 18R conversion. It still used the air pump, and the air pump made 25 cfm, applied upstream before the turbo.

Hugh describe it as "money form home".

I'm thinking that somehow, you can use the bare minimum of space you have to use an existing pulley as a back drive, sort of what the Hart BDA Escorts used to drive the alternator. Even a jack shaft right to the back on the engine

hoopty5.0 said:
What is a jack shaft?

Noobz347 said:
Does Jill have one too?

( you have to ask these things these days )

karthief said:
Jack used to be jill.

hoopty5.0 said:
A shaft can be inverted too, so yes, yes she does.

droopie85gt said:
This thread is so nasty. Jack shafts, suction, blow by, sex changes...OH MY!

I figured the Monster Lair would have some Race Deck or similar on the floor by now! Or at least a nice epoxy coating.

Black1987 said:
Mike you can't use steam tables for ideal gas law problems lol.....engineer joke disregard

Interested in how this will work out.

What tha'?

It never fails..everytime I decide to ignore the computer for a day, all of you dogs come out, go to the top of a big tree,..and have a big, giant dog party..

I could not make my own PCV valve,...I could not find anyplace that sold a stinkin ball bearing.

So,..That leaves the car up in the air for the weekend,..literally. On Monday, the aluminum PVC valve arrives.
I'm in no hurry to coat the underside of the car in oil again, so it'll have to sit..
The Dr. Released me to go back to work on the 9th of October...one more week before I return from the dead.

General karthief · Sep 29, 2017

madmike1157 said:
What tha'?

It never fails..everytime I decide to ignore the computer for a day, all of you dogs come out, go to the top of a big tree,..and have a big, giant dog party..

I could not make my own PCV valve,...I could not find anyplace that sold a stinkin ball bearing.

So,..That leaves the car up in the air for the weekend,..literally. On Monday, the aluminum PVC valve arrives.
I'm in no hurry to coat the underside of the car in oil again, so it'll have to sit..
The Dr. Released me to go back to work on the 9th of October...one more week before I return from the dead.

Noobz didn't send you an invitation?

Build Thread 1978 Mercury Cyclone. The pig is in the pen.

Hookers and Beer for life!

Eaten, greased and played with my balls

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

SendMeUrDataLog

My assy trans to myself

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

SendMeUrDataLog

Hookers and Beer for life!

My assy trans to myself

Eaten, greased and played with my balls

Eaten, greased and played with my balls

mechanicus terribilis

Stangnet Facilities Maint Tech... Er... Janitor

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair

mechanicus terribilis

Hookers and Beer for life!

my wife Bedazzled my input shaft

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair

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