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Oh sht! forgot about the Map sensor!!!!! and the IAT sensor for that matter.....There is gonna be a short runner transition between the individual TB's and the head...I could link all of those runners to form a common plenum of sorts. Then again,...why isn't the vacuum signal from a single TB enough to supply both sensors?

And.....I'll go back to 15.00 a can octane boost if I get any knock once the engine gets all of its timing back in....I'd have to run six nozzles if I keep the water meth.
The map signal from one cylinder is going to SUCK it will be worthless at best. Do what you can with the iat sensor placement won't really matter that much pulling from the engiine bay....

I can easily use one of the longer datalogs from your current build to get a rough alpha n tune built... the map sensor can then just be a baro sensor for fuel trim... no biggie... you just do your thing and I will work around it. :nice:

The way the car pulled all the way to red line and never fell off tells me that in NA trim it will likely spin higher.... what kind of rpm can your little engine muster?
 
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#0. What kind of rpm can your little engine muster? 6900 rpm indicated on one crazy loop out, probably 6250 rpm really.



#1. Let Dean confirm that this will be a 250whp/300wtq combination N/A.

Yes. Net figures, and easily. See below. Your car is a 3.70 x 3.91 stroke 250. The Hemi 265 is a 3.91 bore by 3.68 stroke engine. The comparisons are valid because the 250 with taht head has a much more efficient combustion chamber and very good mixture motion and similar valve sizes and flow rates modified go up significantly.


#2. Let the throttle bodies be close enough to be able to make them fit.


Sadly, the M20,M50/52 and M54 are all the narrow bore spacing siamesed block 3.606" or 91.6 mm bore spacing the E46 M3 BMW family runs. That's the 1984-1985 Lincoln Continental L code M21 Diesel spacing. And the M70 1993–1998 McLaren F1.

The old 1968-1994 M30 2.8/3.0/3.2/3.5 in liner was 3.937" or 100 mm bore spacing version. Verses the 4.08" or 103.6 mm Falcon 6, your target is off a lot for center spacings. But you know, you could split it like the Bike Carb guys do. You could add a center spacing "flitch" of about 1.5" in the center of cylinder 3 and 4, or you could add 0.474" between each throttle body.

The key is that the spray angle can be changed cylinder to cylinder by other means at the head, and the throttle bodies mounted more upstream. All true performance injection engines that aren't Direct Injection tend to move the injector back, so the throttle bodies just have to converge towards that 4.08" port center to center from the throttle bodies mounter further away. Conventional thought says throttle body spacing must equal bore spacing, but many in line sixes like the Slant Six, the old Log head and 2V 250, the GM 194/230/250/292 and Holden 149/161/173/186/202's have the ports spaced differently to the block, but they average out the same.

I'd say any advice would be patronising, I am seriously knocked out by your gumption and keeness.

but you could attack it with some square or Hex drive joiners like the IDF Weber guys do. It would be fan blQQdy-tastic.:hail:

8fcdea0879e2c21177b64e331a746fbc.jpg


Or the IDF3C 3-bbl carb, which is just an IDA 2-BBL with a joiner to make a brace of carbs equal to a Porsche 911 port spacing or Lamborghini V12 bore spacing. 95mm.

332195805001_1.jpg



On the Horsepower level, it goes back to Eduardo Webers venturi size as the minimum runner diameter pinch point, but Horsepower is really a Pipe Max feature.


Down under, there were 248, 270, 280 and 302 hp Gross 265's.

The stock cammed 6-bbl E37, E48 made 248 hp, but 270 and 280 was claimed
The 280 degree cammed E38 made 280 hp gross.
The E49 with 306 degree cam made 302 hp gross.

What I know is that the ancient HEMI 265 Charger 6 pack had an actual observed 295 hp DIN net rating at 5300 RPM of the Chrylser E49. That's from Leo Leonard, a guy who campaigned them.

The 302 hp 6-bbl carb system was the Weber 1.77" throttle body 45 DCOE with 40 mm (1.575") venturis was serviced by a 2.2 sq in port, effective port diameter as a circle was 1.68". So you'd be advised to keep the throttle bore diameters that size.

The downgraded 36 and 38 mm venturi E37/E38/E48 265 Six Pack engines were just as fast as the better E49 cammed engines. All sub 14.8 to 14.4 second 1/4 miles tested two up, but often high 13 second cars tested one up at the drags.

https://assets.hemmings.com/story_image/41955-400-0.jpg?rev=1

https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/m...els---1973-Dodge-Charger-R-T-E49/1281734.html

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/1972-chrysler-hemi-charger-rt/#

6packHEMI_Charger_000.jpg

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc501/xecute6/xecute6002/6packHEMI_Charger_001.jpg
6packHEMI_Charger_002.jpg

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc501/xecute6/xecute6002/6packHEMI_Charger_002.jpg
6packHEMI_Charger_001.jpg


http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc501/xecute6/xecute6002/6packHEMI_Charger_000.jpg
https://www.pressreader.com/australia/australian-muscle-car/20170501/282187945952117


48 DHLA Dell Ortos with 42 or 43mm venturis were added to take the old Hemi 265 tom 340 hp. Same for Aston Martins and Jag XK-E's when modified. So you'll right bang on about 295 with the cam you have and the right IR intake.

Measure your port diameter, and how much above 1.33" are you?. The stock port flows 206 hp cleaned up at about 155 cfm, but ground out, even 4-bbl 650 Double pumper's yield 350 hp net at 6500 rpm or so. The head goes up in cfm rate as the diameter is ported out by high porting.


You can even high port the head by TIG welding the outside of the top of the runner, and the port can become LS1 egg or cathedral ported with ease. That would pump the port size up enough to flow 275 cfm, and make over 400 hp with those valve sizes. The Honda casting is a 100% Cleveland with even better port angles, and the short side radius is one of the best on any cylinder head made. The upper radius is where the lunatic frenzied performance lies. The exhaust just needs balancing, but you cam does most of that as it sits now.

Boy howdy... Naturally Ass Potatoed...whodathunk? :flag:
 
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:fight::dead::bang:
As much as I am a fan on NA. I am a little sad with the direction this project is going. I say you will be lucky to squeeze 200whp out of it NA, but yes it will sound cool and look cool with 6 throttle bodies hanging off the manifold.

And it changed from shelving the turbo stuff to selling it at a drop of a hat.

Scott
 
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Your MAP issue cold be solved with an easy blow through MAF conversion. Lightning MAFs are cheap....so I've heard.

Plus, STEVE was lookin for a guinea pig.

We know it runs....now we can find out if it runs better with MAF. :cool:

You and Steve are my heroes....:flag::hail:
 
#0. What kind of rpm can your little engine muster? 6900 rpm indicated on one crazy loop out, probably 6250 rpm really.



#1. Let Dean confirm that this will be a 250whp/300wtq combination N/A.

Yes. Net figures, and easily. See below. Your car is a 3.70 x 3.91 stroke 250. The Hemi 265 is a 3.91 bore by 3.68 stroke engine. The comparisons are valid because the 250 with taht head has a much more efficient combustion chamber and very good mixture motion and similar valve sizes and flow rates modified go up significantly.


#2. Let the throttle bodies be close enough to be able to make them fit.


Sadly, the M20,M50/52 and M54 are all the narrow bore spacing siamesed block 3.606" or 91.6 mm bore spacing the E46 M3 BMW family runs. That's the 1984-1985 Lincoln Continental L code M21 Diesel spacing. And the M70 1993–1998 McLaren F1.

The old 1968-1994 M30 2.8/3.0/3.2/3.5 in liner was 3.937" or 100 mm bore spacing version. Verses the 4.08" or 103.6 mm Falcon 6, your target is off a lot for center spacings. But you know, you could split it like the Bike Carb guys do. You could add a center spacing "flitch" of about 1.5" in the center of cylinder 3 and 4, or you could add 0.474" between each throttle body.

The key is that the spray angle can be changed cylinder to cylinder by other means at the head, and the throttle bodies mounted more upstream. All true performance injection engines that aren't Direct Injection tend to move the injector back, so the throttle bodies just have to converge towards that 4.08" port center to center from the throttle bodies mounter further away. Conventional thought says throttle body spacing must equal bore spacing, but many in line sixes like the Slant Six, the old Log head and 2V 250, the GM 194/230/250/292 and Holden 149/161/173/186/202's have the ports spaced differently to the block, but they average out the same.

I'd say any advice would be patronising, I am seriously knocked out by your gumption and keeness.

but you could attack it with some square or Hex drive joiners like the IDF Weber guys do. It would be fan blQQdy-tastic.:hail:

8fcdea0879e2c21177b64e331a746fbc.jpg


Or the IDF3C 3-bbl carb, which is just an IDA 2-BBL with a joiner to make a brace of carbs equal to a Porsche 911 port spacing or Lamborghini V12 bore spacing. 95mm.

332195805001_1.jpg



On the Horsepower level, it goes back to Eduardo Webers venturi size as the minimum runner diameter pinch point, but Horsepower is really a Pipe Max feature.


Down under, there were 248, 270, 280 and 302 hp Gross 265's.

The stock cammed 6-bbl E37, E48 made 248 hp, but 270 and 280 was claimed
The 280 degree cammed E38 made 280 hp gross.
The E49 with 306 degree cam made 302 hp gross.

What I know is that the ancient HEMI 265 Charger 6 pack had an actual observed 295 hp DIN net rating at 5300 RPM of the Chrylser E49. That's from Leo Leonard, a guy who campaigned them.

The 302 hp 6-bbl carb system was the Weber 1.77" throttle body 45 DCOE with 40 mm (1.575") venturis was serviced by a 2.2 sq in port, effective port diameter as a circle was 1.68". So you'd be advised to keep the throttle bore diameters that size.

The downgraded 36 and 38 mm venturi E37/E38/E48 265 Six Pack engines were just as fast as the better E49 cammed engines. All sub 14.8 to 14.4 second 1/4 miles tested two up, but often high 13 second cars tested one up at the drags.

https://assets.hemmings.com/story_image/41955-400-0.jpg?rev=1

https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/m...els---1973-Dodge-Charger-R-T-E49/1281734.html

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/1972-chrysler-hemi-charger-rt/#

6packHEMI_Charger_000.jpg

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc501/xecute6/xecute6002/6packHEMI_Charger_001.jpg
6packHEMI_Charger_002.jpg

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc501/xecute6/xecute6002/6packHEMI_Charger_002.jpg
6packHEMI_Charger_001.jpg


http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc501/xecute6/xecute6002/6packHEMI_Charger_000.jpg
https://www.pressreader.com/australia/australian-muscle-car/20170501/282187945952117


48 DHLA Dell Ortos with 42 or 43mm venturis were added to take the old Hemi 265 tom 340 hp. Same for Aston Martins and Jag XK-E's when modified. So you'll right bang on about 295 with the cam you have and the right IR intake.

Measure your port diameter, and how much above 1.33" are you?. The stock port flows 206 hp cleaned up at about 155 cfm, but ground out, even 4-bbl 650 Double pumper's yield 350 hp net at 6500 rpm or so. The head goes up in cfm rate as the diameter is ported out by high porting.


You can even high port the head by TIG welding the outside of the top of the runner, and the port can become LS1 egg or cathedral ported with ease. That would pump the port size up enough to flow 275 cfm, and make over 400 hp with those valve sizes. The Honda casting is a 100% Cleveland with even better port angles, and the short side radius is one of the best on any cylinder head made. The upper radius is where the lunatic frenzied performance lies. The exhaust just needs balancing, but you cam does most of that as it sits now.

Boy howdy... Naturally Ass Potatoed...whodathunk? :flag:

Whew.....As always,.I knew that you'd come through to "clarify" some of the questions I had/have about this process...
the difference between my 4.08" spaced ports, and the BMW's 3.60" is 1/2"....(more or less) a transition adapter will be the fix for that. Im glad that there is only a .250 difference between ports,..so the angle of that transition will actually be almost imperceptible. The issue of how to deal with the MAP sensor is a greater issue....I wonder if Instead of making a plate with splayed tubes attached to another plate to accommodate the port spacing difference, I make a box style adapter (1-1.5" thick) that will solve the transition problem and give me a common plenum for the MAP and IAT sensors to be happy with in speed density? What will I lose with regard to the benefits gained by having individual TB's mounted to each port w/ no plenum at all if they flow into, and right back out of a metal box in between?
( this seems like a perfect solution)


Big boy class time now Huh?
You stick to shoveling snow......and Stay focused on one thing at a time....Go Ice fishin', Club some baby seals.. Sing Eskimo camp fire songs......
And I'll do all of the heavy lifting for the next couple of months. ;)
:fight::dead::bang:
As much as I am a fan on NA. I am a little sad with the direction this project is going. I say you will be lucky to squeeze 200whp out of it NA, but yes it will sound cool and look cool with 6 throttle bodies hanging off the manifold.

And it changed from shelving the turbo stuff to selling it at a drop of a hat.

Scott

I know it seems flighty to you Scott....And I'm sure that it just don't make sense to you as to why I'd want to trade such a good running combo in for something that you think will seem all soft and mushy by comparison. When you pull this car into a typical cruise-in,..it is not the fact that the engine has a turbo on it that makes it such a talking point for so many that come by and talk with me....it's about how the thing looks and sounds as it rolls in,..the way the engine sounds when its running, and all of the crazy stuff I've done in the build.. What seems like a snap decision, was actually an easy one when I converted from shelving the stuff, to selling the stuff....it's an old thought process actually.....In for a penny, in for a pound.
In other words...if I'm gonna do it, why would I keep looking back? And why would I leave all of that money sitting on a shelf? Nothing was done hastily,....I just never stop thinking about it once I start thinking about it...The decision to take a step back, and quit forcing the engine to try and make 3 times stock power on a 40 year old rotating assembly for the sake of longevity w/o sacrificing the visceral experience was easy.
I was more worried about a rod cap failure that would put a hole through the side of hundreds of hours worth of work in a almost un-replaceable foundation way more than how far it'll spin the tires.

Your MAP issue cold be solved with an easy blow through MAF conversion. Lightning MAFs are cheap....so I've heard.

Plus, STEVE was lookin for a guinea pig.

We know it runs....now we can find out if it runs better with MAF. :cool:

You and Steve are my heroes....:flag::hail:
No MAF....Air will not flow through a common plenum to get to the throttle bodies. Each TB will have its own velocity stack w/ a screen/filter.
 
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You can do anything with fixed table lookups if you have little Mass Air signal. Trust Steve. The old Motec and Haltech Hilborne EFi reworks had the same issues, so they just used fixed values.

The best option is Independent runner without the common plenumb.


The Hemi 6 guys have an alloy head and Weber to ITB throttle body adaptor for the 2.2 sq in intake runner head, and none of it lines up.

DSC00690.jpg



The D-series Hemi block designed in the US has a strange look of your modified 250 block. Here is a 6 cylinder Hemi 265 block in a Toyota Corolla KE30. Oh whata feeling!

DSC03642.jpg


Most of the Mopar 6 Pack Hemi 265 guys down here copy the Ford Cross flow and BMW Fuel Injection intakes anyway.

DSC00547.jpg

DSC00548.jpg

DSC00552.jpg


The horsepower will be well, well over 300 hp net with that Tighe cam and the compression you have. Ivan Tighe cut his teeth on Jag XJ-6 cams, so Dean Tighes cam details are about as good as you'll get anywhere.

Even with a 1.5 factor loss of an auto, you can make 300 hp with supreme ease.

Even the ancient long stroke 3442 Jag XK 140 with triple DCOE40's makes 190 hp at the bags, or 238 rwhp. The 250, its got way more cam, capacity and the canted valve head is a natural for horepower.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INCs8jkOqCU


The E49 cam had 306 degrees at lash duration, and at 50 thou, 232/232 with 479peak lift on a 110 LSA, so its a low load stress, high duration, low lift cam. The Tighe cam is heaps more radical in lift and intensity, with a nice wide lobe center for Speed Density EFi.


Peak ignition timing can be raised, and the whole fuel delivery and spark tables can allow some impressive torque figures.

The exhaust becomes the fifth stroke with a normally aspirated six, and it produces a simply bitching improvement in sound.
Cam influence goes like this.

All the EFi engines got decompressed to 8.8:1 compression ratio, down 0.6 points from stock 9.35.

Stock, 1983-1984 149 hp net with 256 degree and 190 degrees at 50 thou.
The 1985-1992 X flow cam factory Cammed up with a 4.9 EFi style cam with 264 degrees and about 200 degrees lift at 50 thou, and you got 13 extra horspower right off - 161 to 162 hp net for 1985-1992 XF EFi
A stock 250 with EFi and 270 degree cam with 210 degrees at 50 thou makes 180 hpnet without upsetting the EECIV. This is without headers. With them, and a CAI, you get 212 hp
A stock 250 with EFi and 280 degree cam with 215 degrees at 50 thou makes 200 hp net without upsetting the EECIV. This is without headers. With them, and a CAI, you get 236 hp

Even a carb 1985 engine with a 9.35:1 compression 500cfm 2-bbl Holley 2305 carb, and some intake work and tubing headers and the 280 at lash, 215 degrees at 50 thou cam makes 196 hp, up 65 horsepower.

As soon as a proper cam goes in, its into the high 300 + net horsepower as the head flow goes up with proper Cleveland 351 style valve lift.

Uncorked, the stock head flow figures go way up. The factory paltry 145 cfm at 425 thou lift flow rate goes right up over 215 cfm with 525 thou valve lift and just a little port cleaning up. Most of the power gains are due to the stock 264 and 435 thou lift cam taking so much peak cfm off the head flow,

the rest is due to the already great port angles just loving some extra port area. So that de-dagging and grinding of the ports you had done will yield a huge increase in CFM with the 525 thou lift cam.

Headers at the exhaust then make a uniform 18% power boost if under hood heat is controlled.

Off topic, but important to note. Talking the later SOHC versions, they got a very good iron exhaust header which gave the same performance as a set of headers.

The stock SOHC Multiple Point EFI with much milder camsafdt specs, and 2:1 valve lift lifter ratios, by 1992, the stock level of 186 hp had grown to 216 hp.

The Mick Webb SVO 3.9 liter gained a set of very special Genie headers, and it was the only engine to benefit from them because he had designed the engine around them, with no clamied increase in power. The car took 1 second less over the 1/4 mile with headers verses those without. 186 hp -----> 216 hp, but he didn't do any engine remapping or cam upgrades at all.

A cammed up, modified X-fow 4.1 or SOHC 3.9 or 4.0 can turn up to 250 hp and 300 lb-ft any old time.

With the stalwart cam you have, it'll be well over all those numbers above.

The cam maketh the In line six, and two valve per cylinder inline sixes just need duration and cfm to make outragoeus power. Nothing under the valves is different to a good traditional in line six with the Triple Weber DCOE style 45 and bigger carbs

Namely:-
the stock factory E37/38/48/49 Charger and Pacer 265 Hemi Six Packs, 248-295 hp net proven.
Modifed, they have heaps more suds than a DOHC engine
the XK-E 3.8 or 4.2 (aftermarket Triple DCOE's, 48 DCO's, or 48 DHLA's), always 300 hp net at least
the factory DB6/DBS 4.0 liter Aston Martin Vantage, 325 hp net proven, 340 hp + with 48 DCO Webers or 48 DHLA Dellorto's


All of these two valve per cylinder in line sixes engines were able to not just match, but obliterate the much bigger 318/340/360 and 326 V8's and V12 stablemates.

The best account is what the old triple carbed E49's did to 351 4V HO Clevelands is this

DSC06319_zps0f64495e.jpg


Factory, a 0-100 mph time of 14.1 seconds! It was only above 120 mph that the deficincies of a 3.5:1 axle ratio, 86 cubic inches and two less cylinders showed up. As stated, Leo Leonards 265 made 295 hp net at 5300 rpm , no modifications allowed, (302 gross claimed), and according to Mick Webb in 1988, the best 1971 351 4V HO engine with 505 thou lift cam and 300 degrees duration made 350 hp net on Fords dyno.

Modified, maybee 293.7 hp at the bags, with perhaps 370 hp at 6200 rpm on this 9" axled 4 speed BW Single Rail specimen. Despite the claimes, the 9" and 7-7/8" axles show the same drive train losses.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLnMgrF1-v8

 
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Morning Gents....It's your 7AM wake-up call. (Not that I expect any of you to still be in bed,.....)

I'm hoping to get the block back today...Too bad it's only 15 degrees outside though.....( Been really nice for all of Christmas week and the week after,...Now that it's 2018,.....it's Colder Anna) So washing the thing for re-assembly is gonna be a btch.

The head is basically stock port dimensions excepting the one inch in where I did some slight opening to accommodate the tubing I used for the manifolds....The intake got opened up to 1.5" and the exhaust was opened up to 1.625. I removed casting flash, and did some bowl transition stuff....

Other than that, the stock ports were so good I just couldn't bring myself to messing with them much more than that, knowing that I was gonna blow air into them anyway...

Now things are different. I'll probably spend some time on them now...but nothing too crazy,...Why there is a 1.70" intake valve that has to get its air from a tubular cross section that's only 1.33" don't make much sense..
20180102_075121_zpsnquukhp5.jpg

This is looking into the intake port...You can see the factory casting parting line deeper into the port..Like I said, I haven't touched them...I'm gonna make a go/no-go cross section tool to act as a guide and open this port up to 1.625

I've seen pics though.........Pics of Crossflow heads with green stuff dripping out of the ports. Obviously,I cannot afford to go crazy on these heads and risk breaking through a port wall somewhere...(Maybe open it up to 1.500-1.575")

The lack of an intake manifold to support the water pump forced me to open the pump up to see what makes it tick...
20180102_075154_zpsf5sezgpe.jpg

I need to move the thing, and do some redirecting of the water in this engine......Now that I know that I can redrill those outlets, block off the existing ones, and use the base solely as a mounting base to hang that pump else where,....That is no longer a hurdle anymore. Best usage I can think of actually......Take your average electric SBC water pump, block off any semblance of what it was originally intended for,...and cool off a Monster instead.

Which brings me to the final point this morning,......Once the turbo is gone,..there's no going back. And until the Turbo is gone,...I'm not selling anything else...The turbo is the tipping point, cause that is what makes the Monster out of this engine...Once I sell it, it becomes something "else than".......Maybe like Godzilla's wussy Kid in the 60's era Japanese movie........:rolleyes:

Definitely no Monster unless you step on it's tail...
The engine will hopefully take on a more linear power curve VS where it is now, where it goes from accelerating to getting loose through second gear...where I just shoved the shifter forward as soon as the tires started blazing, knowing that it had long since tagged 6,000 RPM..

This time I'll actually be able to watch the RPM's climb,...I'll rev it to 5800 and shift it,...fully 500RPM before the rev limiter...( which the old combo was more than acquainted with) It'll be a more refined Monster....
Maybe I'll go buy some Tea and Crumpets.....
 
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What does that head flow stock Mike? Someone has had to have done some kind of flowbench work on it... maybe just a full cleanup is needed... port velocity is just as important as area if not more.

Also this new manifold is it straight out or are you going to turn the runners up?
I got no clue....I'm sure there was mention of flow potential in one of Dean's previous encyclopedic replies.:shrug:
I'm not all fired up to do a full port by any scope,....if I can get away with a full clean up, then yea me.

As for the throttle bodies, I'll probably have to angle them up slightly,...The brake booster will be real close at cylinders 5&6.

In other news,...the engine isn't done...MOF he hasn't even started on it. No surprise there....I expected that when a fix has to come out of his pocket, he may be a little slow to get around to taking care of this.

I let him know w/o being a dick that I expected that he'd get to it in the very near future,....In the conversation, he again stated that the cylinders had significant taper at the bottom,...adding that he couldn't imagine how his guy could have done that...I told him that my pistons have all got the scuffed skirts as a testimony to that fact,..implying ( whether or not he got the implication) that he doesn't want to let me sit too long, and give me a reason to call the piston MFG, see what he thinks, and maybe demand that they replace them as well..

And finally,.....this about that..

If you own a business and you cater to distributors and race teams, then do that. If you are too busy to talk to an individual interested in your product,...It's probably best that you stick with your distributors and race teams and refuse to do that......Then again, maybe it's time you hired a phone tech to provide that service,.......... so you can be you.
If I contact a vendor, and he won't bother to answer my questions before I pay him for a service, when there are so many others offering a similar product..HE LOSES.
And I cannot imagine how many times that would happen before his business ceases to be "in business".
I contact every vendor before I make a purchase specifically to clarify some questions and concerns so that I can make the right choice for me. If Ol dude thinks that that is a waste of his time, then my heart pumps purple piss for him..
 
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Yes, the factory flow bench figures stock were reported in Motor Manual October 1980, and then a whole bunch of SuperFlow 900 readings were taken in various stages of modification , from 145 cfm quoted by Ford at the intake to right up to KEC's 275 cfm high ported. xrglen and others in Australia complied an extensive list.

249.3 rear wheel horepower with just a 650 Double Pumper Holley 4-bbl, 1.5" exhausts and cut down 2V Cleveland stainless intake valves.

Of course, Honda did the development work, and reduced the port size to improve fuel consumption with a large power ad torque gain. It is easiest to high port, but without anything fancy, 215 cfm at 28"H20.

1004DtOXEFalconAlloyHeadIIHF5Hondacastcrossflowh.jpg


From the 1976 iron x flow to late 1982 heads with notched injectors, they lost 51 pounds, and went down in port size from 1.575 to 1.33, and improved MPG 13% with a 13% power gain.

Mikes early casting was the best.
https://fordsix.com/viewtopic.php?t=66167
https://fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11311847
 
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Be very carefull with the x flow head. Never port the sides, but you can fill the base but only at entry if you've rasied the port. Like Hemi heads, you can't play with them, they need hi porting and no work on the short side radius. Its just bigger intakes, intake port via hi porting, and you won't hit water if you tig weld the upper long side radius to create an LS or Cleveland style cathederal port.

At 275 cfm, your potentially into 4.5 SVO BUSCH V6 power, like 550 to 650 hp with the right cam.

The Aussies do so little to port flow.

A 400 hp head would look like this

PRO250 said:
This is a home ported crossflow one i did it bassed on another head i had. I flow benched it when it was completed. This head has a 1.9 intake valve and a 1.6 exhaust. Rod told me it would have flowed more with a smaller valves

inlet
100 69.4cfm
200 123,7
300 180.6
400 226.2
500 224.6
600 224.1

exhaust
100 53.3cfm
200 98.4
300 132.4
400 155.1
500 175.8
600 178.2

400 thou is 0.400", or what xrglen called 400"
20 thou is 0.020", or what xrglen called 20"

https://fordsix.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=64767
std head,
exhaust, 100" 49.1cfm, 200" 83.8cfm, 300" 112.8cfm, 400" 137.0cfm, 500" 152.5cfm, 550" 159.1

300hp head,
exhaust, 100" 59.6cfm, 200" 95.1cfm, 300" 120.6cfm, 400" 142.0cfm, 500" 154.6cfm, 550" 157.6

xrglen said:
hi all, i dont do any port work on the 300hp head. it is only a good seat and valve job with attention paid to the bowel area and a reshape of the streamline area around the inlet valve guide boss. i also taper the guide bosses but you need to heat and remove them to do it right. i only port on 300hp+ heads and then there is not much to do but its very important to know where to port. if you take 20" too much from either side of the port you can lose hp. i do slight port work on the exhaust when large solid cams are being used but again this is only on 300hp+ motors. i have had the last 6 months off work due to moving house and a well needed holliday and i will be back in to it soon. i have 3 motors which i will test after easter and they are the 365hp, 400hp and new supercharged motor. they will all be tested in the same car, same dyno and at the same track so results will be more even. i am no longer building a big bore motor to test due to my time being limited with work so the supercharged motor will take its place as aussiespeeds new blower manifold is due out soon. i have a 40" bottom end with forged ross pistons, preped rods and crow solid cam ready to go and i have done an o-ringed xrglen head to suit with bigger exhaust valves and exhaust porting as well. it wont make much more than 350hp but it should have a ton more torque than a N/A x-flow.
if anyone has ant questions i can be contacted by email at [email protected]
i will be happy to answer all questions that any fordsix members have..
Cheers


Andrew Kostecki made the best X-flow heads,
Kostecki Engine Centre (K.E.C)
Still manufacturing but not doing workshop or general parts sales anymore



On the most , can I say, backward 4bbl technology, not even independant runner, 382 hp.

xrglen;3558008 said:
hi, i was the person who designed and tested the aussiespeed inlet manifolds for the x-flow motor.
the x-flow has a very long stroke and a small inlet port which is great to give the carby a very good vacume signal when big carbs are fitted.

you would be better with the 4 barrel aussiespeed inlet as the plenum is smaller than the 2 barrel version and i have many speedway racers that have picked up alot more torque and power when using a 4bl inlet over the 2 bl aussiespeed.

x-flows love big carbs and a 650cfm double pumper is not a big carb for a x-flow that revs to 5500rpm.
i ran a street regod 250 cortina 12 years ago that ran a 12.16@110mph and it ran a 750cfm barry grant gold claw carby and only reved to 6000rpm and made 271rwhp

x-flows are also over exhausted from standard so no porting is recomended on the exhaust and dont go bigger valves in the exhaust either like 1.60". if you have to go to a 1.56" so you can get the valve install hight correct due to worn std seats.

yes the EFI inlet valves are bigger at 1.78" from memory but in the early heads and the std ones were 1.74" or about there but they are all the same size from 1988 onwards at 1.78". it is still best to fit bigger 1.84" inlet valves and port the inlet along with removing the inlet guide bosses and tapering them down. this also helps you port the inlet better with these removed. remember anything you do to the inlet will help to get the inlet to exhaust ratio better. std they are 89% but you want it to be about 75% for a N/A motor.
due to this also, you dont want a dual pattern cam that has more lift and duration on the exhaust like the crow 14770. it would be better using the single pattern 14650 which is not as big as you think. i used this cam in a XD ute with a 4 speed, 650dp holley and 2.92 diff and it ran a 14.4 down the quarter and it was a great tow car for my burnout car aswell..
again due to their long stroke the x-flow will retain much more torque with a big cam than say a windsor or chev motor and with the 14650 cam the real power range is 2500-5500rpm which would be great with 3.23 or 3.50 gears. the 14770 cam falls flat after 4600rpm so its not much bigger than a stock cam. crow over rate all their rpm ranges when it comes to the x-flow.
i still build many speedway and drag x-flows and it is easy to get 350hp on pump fuel and a 6000rpm red line with a solid cam. i have a street car (XE) with a new 400hp x-flow that runs on 100 octane fuel and only revs to 6400rpm.
i recomend and all my customers use the aussiespeed inlet due to the excellent fill ratio which will make on average 17hp more than any other inlet on the market for the x-flow.
the redline and cain inlet varry by 17% with their fill ratio and the aussiespeed varries by only 2.5% so air fuel mixtures are better and then more power is made. just dont port the inlet as this should only be done on a flow bench.

i hope this helps..
Cheers

Fill ratio is the port to port flow efficency. 100% to each cylinder is perfect flow efficency. Most vary cylinder to cylinder by well over 17%. -/+ 2.5% is exceptional.


https://fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11324526

xrglen382_hp_000.jpg


xrglen;3601380 said:
Just wanted to post a pic of my 382hp 250 x-flow that i should be racing this september at Kwinanna Motorplex.
It started life as a 365hp motor back in 2008, (tuned on Kostecki's dyno) and now has some more port work, bigger cam and a new ignition with extra comp..
I built it all myself from porting the head to selecting the solid camshaft.
It will be going into a 1983 XE S-pack falcon with a T5 and 3.89 b/w diff.

Here are the specs,

C2 head with Ferrea valves. IN flows 222cfm@550" lift at 28"
11.9:1 comp (98 octane with booster)
Aussiespeed inlet manifold with 650 demon carb
Acl 200 rod pistons and EF crank
Crow solid 14647 cam
yella terra roller rockers and pushrods
Custom extractors
Mr Gasket electric w/pump drive
Cheers

On over cooling, its an X Flow alloy head issue with great water pumps....
https://fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11329288
xrglen;3684171 said:
The EWP 80 pump flows too much for a xflow so the 115 even at its lowest pump speed would be too much for your setup. I have been using the mr gasket electric water pump drives and the davies craig EWP 80 pumps for many years on many different motors and i always run a thermostat unless im at the drags where I need the motor to cool down in the pits without having the engine running.
Cheers

https://fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11328815

FORD_MAN;3403963 said:
purple78te: If you look at the flow chart KEC has on there site it only flows 200CFM which is 309hp,
standard C2 head flows 286hp/185cfm, 430hp is 279CFM.

Crossflow heads are over exhausted from factory, fitting a 1.84" inlet valve fixes this.
Alloy head C2/C2A/D 42CC, redline/aussiespeed manifold,
350 holley should be alright with the 2 smaller cams below,
465 Vac/Sec would be better, hardened or superduty push rods

some cams
8.9 to 9.5:1 comp, Crow 14892, [email protected]" 510" 112 LSA
9.0 to 10.2:1, Camtech CT142 517, [email protected]" 510" 110 LSA
10 to 10.5:1, Crow 14650,, [email protected]" 522" 113 LSA or
Camtech CT142 528, [email protected]" 534" 110 LSA

Depends on what sort of budget you have.

xrglen;3668694 said:
use 1.84" inlet valves and std exhaust valves, single patern cam with about 212-224 degrees at 50" and an aussiespeed inlet with a 350 holley. std bottom end with arp conrod bolts and shave about 20" off the head.
go to a 230@50" cam and 465-600 holley with re-graphed dizzy and 250hp is easy..
Cheers

https://fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?p=3645184#post3645184
xrglen;3645184 said:
Kostecki engine centre in Perth built a de-stroked 348/351 cleveland with 2V iron heads and 14:1 comp that made 548hp on pump 98 octane fuel.
Check out their website or look for the write up out of perth stree car mag..
Cheers
 
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Yup. 300hp net. The Dean Tighe cam makes the crazy low cfm figures work.

It acutally goes back to the things you cannot do in V8's, becasue US racing is fairly much anti independent runner. The Aspirations index, the idea of pulling the lowest amount of rrpm for the highest amount of horsepower, as espoused by Phil Irving, Larry Perkins and David Vizard, they aren't followed like the Aussies do. In USA dyno work, its all about whatever makes the best power or baseline power. Down in Australia, most of the 4-bbl 250 racers follow the maximum horspower rule, but the Indepent runner guys like tune camshafts on a cubic inches times revs basis, and the lower the divsor between that and the net horspowe out put, that is the tune they aim for.

So 250 times 5300 rpm might give 300 hp. Divide the product (250*5300rpm = 1325000)by the Net Horsepower numerator (300), and the lowest number wins. 4416.6 is the factor.

If your aspirations index doesn't drop with each modification, your modification isn't valid.

This is how Lamborghinis Bob Wallace de-turned a 370 hp at 9000 rpm 3.5 liter V12 into a nice tame 270 hp at 6500 rpm engine.Giotto Bizzarrini tune, 5181. Bob Wallance tune, 5128. The power rating could be up or downscaled at the same rate.

For the Ford 250, the factory 3.9 XR6 was 216 hp net at 4600 rpm, or 240*4600/216 or 5110.

The best naturally aspirated was the 5.408 liter 330 cubic inch Quad Cam Modular V8, A 100% USA Ford V8.

ge5157706930656804250.jpg


https://www.motoring.com.au/ford-djr-320-falcon-3294/

429 hp DJR 320, Dick Johnson and Rob Herrods 2005 US import Modular V8 with 429 hp at 5500 rpm, an AI of 4230, never bettered for a non turbo or naturally aspirated engine.

The factor can drop below that, to as low as 4000 with the right mods. NASCAR engines do, F1 engines dont.

I'm not 100% sure how to optimise the parts Mike is using, the head and intake to the cam, but normally, an Engine Analsyer program will confirm the out put, and where to put the effort.

Although I don't think Mike did much work to removing the guides like naturally aspirated guys do. Can't remember. But he has in that camshaft a way to pull out a lot more air and power and torque than xrglen and PRO250's cam grinds. So with a 1.5 flywheel to rear wheel loss for an auto, Mike woulkd would start off with 200 rwhp, and go up from that on the strength of his Independant runner port and throttle body work. Especailly with the compression ratio he has. If it goes up to 10.7;1, he's right into the 300 hp net stage right off the bat.

The ports are starting to look really small. The only way to improve runner cc and cfm without hitting water or lossing port CFM is by high porting. That always gets port area and cc in ballpark.

The Cross flow I6 head is reverse engineering at its finest.No work needs done on the exhaust.

It has HFII cast on Mikes XD head....its Henry Ford II's child, and it wasn't a missgotten red haired step child...on the strength of the 1980's Alloy Head 4.1, Hank the Deuce Ford signed the Aussie and US production 302 Cleveland/351 Cleveland/351M/400 execution order, and those in line sixes were a foundational car for another 10 years. It set the foundation for other turbo in line OHC sixes, but it wasn't ever a downgraded Cleveland head on an in line six, it was part of the outworking of the Honda and Ford USA's stratified charge engine, so a lot of mixture motion and anti knock and anit detonation technology went into it. You'll have to try real hard to break the little Yellow Peril cylinder head


Speaking of Yellow Peril, my wifes RAV4.1 has the JDM version of third generation 3SGE and rated at at 180hp at 7000 rpm and only 142 lb·ft at 4,800 rpm with 10.3:1 compression. That's 4742, but it only has 1.16 lb-ft per cubic inch torque. The later Red Top has 197 hp at 7000 rpm, and the same torque figure, but an almost 5.4 Ford Quad Cam matching 4333.

Its got dual resonace fuel standoff protection to fatten out the upper range power at 7000 rpm without loosing any mid range torque. Toyota variable induction system (T-VIS). TVIS was operated by ECU and utilized a set of butterflies that manipulated one of the intake port ruuners valves per cylinder. In order to improve mid-range torque, TVIS blocked the vloume of intake runner flow the manipulated valve until the engine reaches 4500RPM, then it effectively lengthened or rasied the % intake plenumb volume.

The system is similar to the Broad Band Runner, Dual-Stage Intake (DSI) or Dual length intake runner system.

If you can wrangle it, it would deliver both low end torque and high end power. For high end power, fuel standoff
 
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He has such a way with words.
If I only understood more, I do like the way mike's build is going now, practical. Yet unique,
Now he can put that spiffy neatokeen center exhaust outlet back on.
Maybe
Probably not
One could hope :shrug:
 
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