Build Thread 1978 Mercury Cyclone. The pig is in the pen.

STEVE PATTON · Jun 18, 2020

droopie85gt said:
I don't think a misalignment would cause that kind of vibration. I mean, it might be wearing the piss out of your thrust bearing or the pump bushing.

Now, the convertor, you had modified...did they rebalance that? Unbolt the convertor and crank it up. Engine or transmission??

Have we established whether it's crank speed, driveshaft speed, or wheel speed?

TOOLOW91 · Jun 18, 2020

a91what said:
With the VVT working the VE is much more aggressive in the mid range, for the 30mins of actual road tuning we did it runs ok.
What I am most interested in is if you can get your friend to share an ignition table, I can find tons of info for the GE engine but next to nothing on the GTE. The ign table in the tune Mike got looks like something I would use on a SBF not a VVT import.
I chose the side of caution and pulled quite a bit of timing.

All my buddies have non VVTI stuff . My one buddy who had a 240 VVTI no longer has it . So I can’t be help there . I totally agree of being on the side of caution . There is a abundance of these cars making a lot of power . Rightfully so it’s a learning curve for everyone involved here . I did say the non VVTI was the more desirable option in this swap .

CarMichael Angelo · Jun 18, 2020

TOOLOW91 said:
All my buddies have non VVTI stuff . My one buddy who had a 240 VVTI no longer has it . So I can’t be help there . I totally agree of being on the side of caution . There is a abundance of these cars making a lot of power . Rightfully so it’s a learning curve for everyone involved here . I did say the non VVTI was the more desirable option in this swap .

The intake camshaft can be swapped, and it becomes a “ non-vvti”. The exhaust cam is the same regardless.
Before having to accept the fact that I now have to replace the transmission, I emailed the Supra store inquiring about a cam, and asked if I could convert the thing...The answer is always the same....
” Why would you trade off all of the mid range torque to down grade your engine to non VVTI?”
You see it in the 2jz forums as well.....people long before me asking what is involved to convert the engine over to non-VVTI, and always the same responses. Why?

A set of 2jz cams from Brian Crower are around 550.00..The VVTI intake cam adds at least 200.00 to that, sometimes double.

Again,...this is all moot. The transmission in the car has to be replaced. I just called Australia inquiring about the adapter they make that’ll let me use my flexplate, and keep a 4l60 e converter and stock bell housing ..
But they couldn’t guarantee that the damn thing would get here anytime soon.

At the price they’re selling it....( and with the exchange rate being so strong) that adapter would cost me 455.00 before shipping.

Itll just take for freakin ever to get here.

90sickfox · Jun 18, 2020

Stop worrying and drive the car, Mike. Sounds like you want to do it all again anyway. I'd leave the vvti and spend the extra for vvti cams. I'd also order the adapter from Australia. Why ?....why reinvent the wheel.

That vibration could be a bunch of things that have nothing to do with the transmission. The only way to tell is to diagnose it. I'm sure theres a dyno shop somewhere around there that'll allow you to run that thing on the spinners. That's after checking the wheels and driveshaft ofcourse. On the spinners you'd be able to tell where the vibration is coming from because it will be under load....could also get base hp and tq numbers.

CarMichael Angelo · Jun 19, 2020

90sickfox said:
Stop worrying and drive the car, Mike. Sounds like you want to do it all again anyway. I'd leave the vvti and spend the extra for vvti cams. I'd also order the adapter from Australia. Why ?....why reinvent the wheel.

That vibration could be a bunch of things that have nothing to do with the transmission. The only way to tell is to diagnose it. I'm sure theres a dyno shop somewhere around there that'll allow you to run that thing on the spinners. That's after checking the wheels and driveshaft ofcourse. On the spinners you'd be able to tell where the vibration is coming from because it will be under load....could also get base hp and tq numbers.

Whatever that vibration is, I’m not going to rattle the engine apart trying to diagnose it. It’s pretty clear actually.
The driveshaft is the same, the wheel/tire combo is the same. (Not gonna be the damn tire anyway, the vibration is still there without them on the car).
If what i’m feeling is engine harmonics transmitted through the solid mounts, I’d believe it to be there in park as well, ( and if the engine vibration is that bad, I got an engine imbalance issue), but from what I can tell,...it’s not there in neutral.
The only real thing that I dicked with that could cause this is the transmission sandwich adapter that I made.
What “lined up“ when the two pieces were sitting loosely bolted together only needs to get tweaked slightly one way or the other to put it off center .020/.030” when the sht is bolted up tight.
Now i’m not a physics major or anything, but I’d bet that if you moved some rotational mass even .010 off center and the spun it to 3000 rpm.....it’s gonna vibrate.

CarMichael Angelo · Jun 19, 2020

So,.....all of that said..I’m on the mission to try and fix this once and for all.

I only have two choices:
A.

According to what i’m reading, the above kit is right at $2,000.00 It requires a 9” converter that won’t be lockup. I don’t want to lose that capability, but it’s part of requirements to fit in that bell. Additionally, a 9” converter seems like it’ll be too loose to be a daily drive able combo, especially considering that I can’t lock up the converter. I’m thinking it’s a no go.

B.
There are two versions of this kit, from two different suppliers. One looks to be better designed.

2JZ Adapter Plate for Chevy Trans w/Billet SFI Flywheel Kit

www.atfspeed.com

The above kit mfg wont let me copy their pic of the finished product, but will work with a stock GM converter. I’d get my lockup back, and be able to leave the stock GM bell on the transmission.

This next one is less money,( by a whole whopping 100.00) and will allow me the same converter choices,..but the freakin flywheel looks like it would weigh a bagillion pounds

I’m not liking the bottom unit, because it looks like I gotta through bolt the starter to the block through those two larger holes where the square kerf is at about the 10 o clock on the adapter plate. I’ll be calling both of them today, and make a purchase from one of them one way or the other.
Their both freakin overkill, but that’s all there is out there that’ll let me do this. It looks like a converter will cost around 500-600 bucks. With all of the above choices, i still have to source and rebuild a 4l60e, adapt it to my driveshaft, and reconfigure probably both the transmission, and the engine mounts.

Had I known that i’d have to do this to make the combo work, the 2jz would still be sitting in some warehouse in California.

a91what · Jun 19, 2020

Sorry if this has been covered... why are we not using the Toyota transmission?

CarMichael Angelo · Jun 19, 2020

And now I have a 4th, and 5th option.

I call the guy that makes one of those adapters, and tell him my story. The first words out of his mouth were...” Why aren’t you using the A340 trans that came with the engine?”

Uhhhhhh...because I thought they were weak?

“An A 340 is no different than the 4l60e you’re talking about using, unless you open it up and replace some of the failure prone junk inside it, neither of them will live past 400-450 hp. But, open it up and change out the sprag and a few other parts, and it’ll reliably survive to 650 whp.”

I have an A 340 already ( provided the metal scrap truck hasn’t came in the last day, and gotten it from BMW where it has been sitting )

Itll need to be controlled by the ECU though...And it’ll need a converter, and an adapter to make a slip yoke driveshaft work ( they make an adapter, but i’d have to have my driveshaft converted to two piece)

Lastly,...( And i’ll have to choke on this because @TOOLOW91 told me to do this) Sorry Jeff.

Use what I got. Buy that stinking 1000.00 adapter and a JW ultra bell. ( 4r70w to GM) Send my converter to PTC and have them cut it apart ( again) and adapt it to a GM pattern.

TOOLOW91 · Jun 19, 2020

CarMichael Angelo said:
And now I have a 4th, and 5th option.

I call the guy that makes one of those adapters, and tell him my story. The first words out of his mouth were...” Why aren’t you using the A340 trans that came with the engine?”

Uhhhhhh...because I thought they were weak?

“An A 340 is no different than the 4l60e you’re talking about using, unless you open it up and replace some of the failure prone junk inside it, neither of them will live past 400-450 hp. But, open it up and change out the sprag and a few other parts, and it’ll reliably survive to 650 whp.”

I have an A 340 already ( provided the metal scrap truck hasn’t came in the last day, and gotten it from BMW where it has been sitting )

Itll need to be controlled by the ECU though...And it’ll need a converter, and an adapter to make a slip yoke driveshaft work ( they make an adapter, but i’d have to have my driveshaft converted to two piece)

Lastly,...( And i’ll have to choke on this because @TOOLOW91 told me to do this) Sorry Jeff.

Use what I got. Buy that stinking 1000.00 adapter and a JW ultra bell. ( 4r70w to GM) Send my converter to PTC and have them cut it apart ( again) and adapt it to a GM pattern.

No choking on it , I merely suggested what i did and other things in this thread because I want to see the car work for you .

CarMichael Angelo · Jun 19, 2020

TOOLOW91 said:
No choking on it , I merely suggested what i did and other things in this thread because I want to see the car work for you .

And I've since made a few phone calls
The adapter adds 1/2" to the spacing between engine and block, on top of that, the standard height/depth of a JW ultra bell is gonna add even more. The engine is as far back, and as low as it will go, and moving it forward will force it to go higher, as the oil pan tapers down towards the rear sump.
I dont have the room for any of that.

The A 340 is still here. I'll need only to adapt the rear mount to make that fit.

BUT..

it's all electronic. I'll have to come up with a trans controller. It will require some shifter adaptation. Additionally come up with a drive shaft solution.
I'll have to buy a converter, a new flexplate and the internal stuff to keep it alive.

General karthief · Jun 19, 2020

Did you discuss this with the 3amd?

a91what · Jun 19, 2020

Let me do some hunting mike, we may be able to run that with a micro.. it will communicate with your ms3 so all the tuning can be done at one time.

CarMichael Angelo · Jun 19, 2020

I don’t think they even make an ultra bell for an 4r70w..( At least nothing I can find on it anyway)

CarMichael Angelo · Jun 19, 2020

And that freakin Guibo thing on the tail of an A 340 isn’t adaptable...I tell ya..

95BlueStallion · Jun 19, 2020

Sell of the Toog, spend the money on a full Coyote swap and drive the car. Add your custom turbo setup and it’s even faster. Here’s a full kit down to driveshafts and gauges.

2012 FORD MUSTANG GT 5.0 V8 COYOTE OEM ENGINE & AUTO TRANSMISSION SWAP KIT #1221 | eBay

Find great deals for 2012 FORD MUSTANG GT 5.0 V8 COYOTE OEM ENGINE & AUTO TRANSMISSION SWAP KIT #1221. Shop with confidence on eBay!

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CarMichael Angelo · Jun 20, 2020

As usual.....It’s me and the 3 discussing sht in the wee hours when I should be sleeping. He wakes me with another “ What if “.

What if the converter pilot hub isn’t even in the rear of the crank? Its a relevant concern...and ..entirely possible.

In the course of lining up and spacing the converter, I Think I had to add 3/16” spacers to the feet of the converter.
This would’ve spaced it back, and out of the rear of the crank.
When installing the flexplate on the rear of the crank, I discovered that the factory spacer I was using to space the flexplate off of the rear of the crank wasn’t thick enough, and was allowing too much starter gear engagement. Since I had two different spacers from the two different flexplates ( The original GTE flexplate, and it’s thicker spacer, and the GE flexplate, with it’s thinner spacer), I decided to use the thinner one. When mocking this all up to get the converter hub deeper into the crank, I used the thinner one. But found out that I was having starter hang as a result of that. That forced me to use the other, thicker spacer to fix that.

And that would’ve pushed the converter even further out of the crank.

So the question for this morning at 4:17 AM is if the converter isn’t even in the rear of the crank, despite the fact that it’s bolted to the flexplate, Do ya spose it needs to be in order to add some degree of integrity to the whole install?

Well of course it does Vern.....I’m being facetious.

This still means that I gotta drop that trans, and that in of itself is no easy task, considering I can’t even see the top two bolts, and with the engine so tight against the firewall, have no room to tilt it...
I gotta do 1 of two things:
#1. like they do with BMW V8’s, and a Coyote swap in one of these cars.... I gotta drop the K member with the engine attached to lower it enough to get to the bolts.
#2. I pull the whole thing. Drain the fluids, remove the radiator, AC condenser, the grille and the now “ new and improved “ removeable upper radiator saddle.
And be able to deal with that fckin’ leaky assed oil pan at the same time.

Ill send the converter back to PTC, and have them remake the thing to fit the larger pattern GTE flexplate that I have, instead of the “ hogged out” smaller pattern GE flexplate that it fits. ( The GE flexplate didn’t fit the back of the crank...it’s bolt hole pattern was smaller,..so i had to enlarge the holes ). Before I separate the two, I’ll unbolt the converter from the flexplate, and see how far I can push it back from the mounting surface, and correct the depth measurements so that whatever needs to be added to the feet can be mocked up to determine how much I want added to them, and so that I can have the converter pilot hub lengthened commensurately to insure that it’s going into the crank deeply enough. I’ll have to buy a new GTE flexplate ( mine has been cut, welded, ground on, and welded some more...It’s a perfect recipe for a come apart).

I‘ll put the engine on a stand, and fix that stinking pan the right way hopefully.

When the converter comes back, Ill try to come up with some way to check the fitment of the trans/converter/engine, and bolt that bitch back together.

Then I’ll put that slow ass pig back in the car, and start it.

If there’s a vibration still.....I’m selling it.
If there’s a leaking oil pan still...I’m selling it.
And even if it doesn’t vibrate, or leak oil anymore..
If it‘s still a slow ass pig....i’m selling it.

Thats the plan.

droopie85gt · Jun 20, 2020

Does no one make a manual control kit like they do for a 4L80?

With your removable dash top, could you drill access holes at the top of the firewall, then plug then when done, for access to the top bellhousing bolts?

Whoever designed all that , should have taken in account assembly/disassembly in the field!

droopie85gt · Jun 20, 2020

Kiwi Manual shifted Toyota Slush box

Not my rodeo, but it seems it has been/can be done to just manually shift that Yota slush box.

CarMichael Angelo · Jun 20, 2020

droopie85gt said:
Does no one make a manual control kit like they do for a 4L80?

With your removable dash top, could you drill access holes at the top of the firewall, then plug then when done, for access to the top bellhousing bolts?

Whoever designed all that , should have taken in account assembly/disassembly in the field!

It's not a drag car. I dont need to anticipate having to change the engine, or transmission out "in the field".

Regardless of what I do though, the whole thing has to come back out.
It's just like I said at 3am..the converter hub probably isnt even engaged into the tail of the crank.

ON one hand, I dont want to have to go through another 3 grand to get this thing running with a different transmission.

The a340 could be built to tolerate my expected HP goal, and would certainly fit, but I got to change some internals, modify the tail shaft mount, find a way to control it, and do something about adapting the driveshaft.

And spend another 3 grand doing it.

A 4l80e conversion ....3 grand.

The only thing that will be w/I reason is attempting the re-do on the existing trans..But after pulling everything, spending money on it to try and fix the problem, and having it not be the problem.....
I'll be like..

droopie85gt · Jun 20, 2020

CarMichael Angelo said:
It's not a drag car. I dont need to anticipate having to change the engine, or transmission out "in the field".

Hello, Mike, let me introduce you to MikeyDoOver AKA Mikey2or3times.

Maybe you need to temper your designs with a remove and replace pathway as the main design feature.

Build Thread 1978 Mercury Cyclone. The pig is in the pen.

I smell a conspiracy

If you're the village idiot what's that make me?

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

Wasn't a pretty sight...and I've got big hands

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

SendMeUrDataLog

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

If you're the village idiot what's that make me?

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair

SendMeUrDataLog

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

My assy trans to myself

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

Hookers and Beer for life!

Hookers and Beer for life!

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

Hookers and Beer for life!

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