302 to 390 Swap - What do I Need?

[68Blue302Coupe]

Hey everyone,

I am thinking about picking up a 390 from a 1963 Galaxie and swapping it into my 'stang. The 390 comes with an intake, cast-iron exhaust manifolds (from the Galaxie--might fit??), an alternator, dsitrtibutor, and starter.

My car is '68 coupe with a 302 and a 4-speed toploader. The 4spd was oringinally from a Torino with a 390, and was recently rebuilt. The 302 was from a 1971 Torino and has a 500 cfm Edelbrock carb. The rear end is an 8" with standard 2.79s. I've manual discs up front and over-size drums in the rear. I'm also using Ron Morris adjustable engine mounts.

Questions: What would I need to make the swap? Would I need new engine mounts? Would the 500 cfm Edelbrock be a bad choice with the 390? Would the rear end hold up? And the most challenging... what bell housing would I use (I don't see anything in catalogs that looks right).

I've heard different takes on the '68 shock towers and running a 390. Some folks say no metal work is required, others say Ford added addtional bracing and reworked the towers for the 390. I thought the 390 would fit without metal work.

I really appreciate any advice! Thanks!!

 

[2+2GT]

I am thinking about picking up a 390 from a 1963 Galaxie and swapping it into my 'stang.
OK…

The 390 comes with an intake, cast-iron exhaust manifolds (from the Galaxie--might fit??),
Not a chance on the manifolds. Mustang manifolds won't fit either, because the bolt pattern was different. You'll have to use dual-pattern Tri-Y's or headers, like the JBA.

an alternator, distributor, and starter.
Alternator? On a 63?

My car is '68 coupe with a 302 and a 4-speed toploader. The 4spd was oringinally from a Torino with a 390, and was recently rebuilt. The 302 was from a 1971 Torino and has a 500 cfm Edelbrock carb. The rear end is an 8" with standard 2.79s. I've manual discs up front and over-size drums in the rear. I'm also using Ron Morris adjustable engine mounts.

Questions: What would I need to make the swap? Would I need new engine mounts?
Yes, the 67 frame brackets will work, but the 68's will need to be re-drilled or replaced. The rubber insulators and engine brackets for the 390 are available. You'll also need the 390 trans crossmember.

Would the 500 cfm Edelbrock be a bad choice with the 390?
Very. Too small.

Would the rear end hold up?
Probably not. Odd, typically the 68 302 4V cars had a 9". Beats me why.

And the most challenging... what bell housing would I use (I don't see anything in catalogs that looks right).
You need a 390/428 bell.

I've heard different takes on the '68 shock towers and running a 390.
No. The late 68 428CJ cars had special reinforced towers.

Some folks say no metal work is required, others say Ford added addtional bracing and reworked the towers for the 390. I thought the 390 would fit without metal work.
The 390 had the same tower dimensions as the 200. The center plates on the 428 wrapped around the sides of the tower. All others, including the 390, had the plain towers.

 

[htwheelz67]

you will need motor mounts, you will need mustang/cougar specific heads or you will not be able to get to the ex manifold bolts, an 8" rear will handle a stock or semi stock 390 but you will also need a c-6 trans or BB bell housing for a man trans. you will need a different radiator and hoses and trans lines, alternator conversion, a 500 cfm carb wont be good.

A mild 351w would give as much power or more than a stock 390, be lighter and drop right in with minimal changes........I would pass on that swap unless you found a 390 from a mustang or cougar and rebuilt it and stroked it and added new heads etc.......,you can do a 347, 351w or 393-408 for cheaper and easier than swapping in that 390.

 

[2+2GT]

you will need motor mounts, you will need mustang/cougar specific heads or you will not be able to get to the ex manifold bolts, an 8" rear will handle a stock or semi stock 390 but you will also need a c-6 trans or BB bell housing for a man trans. you will need a different radiator and hoses and trans lines, alternator conversion, a 500 cfm carb wont be good.

A mild 351w would give as much power or more than a stock 390, be lighter and drop right in with minimal changes........I would pass on that swap unless you found a 390 from a mustang or cougar and rebuilt it and stroked it and added new heads etc.......,you can do a 347, 351w or 393-408 for cheaper and easier than swapping in that 390.

You'll save on the bell, clutch, and crossmember. The rest needs to be done with the 390 or 351.

How did you handle the shorter input shaft of your 390 trans on the 302?

If you use an aluminum intake and aluminum heads (which do have the Mustang pattern) the weight won't be so bad.

 

[D.Hearne]

In addition to everything else, the early 390 blocks have only two motor mount holes per side. This makes it iffy on bolting it in with the 67-68 mounts. The mustang mounts are also three piece units, you'll need all three pieces. You're better off taking htwheelz67's advice and go with a 351W based motor. It will be a bolt in swap. Everything will fit. But you will have to address the shorter input shaft on your 390 Toploader not reaching into the pilot bearing with the small block bell, if you don't you will end up breaking the input bearing and/or more due to the input not being supported by the pilot bearing. (ask me how I know this)

 

[68Blue302Coupe]

Hey Everyone,

Thanks for all your input, definitely food for thought. I think I will pass on that 390 then, sounds like too much of a headache. Too bad, I had found one for $300 and got pretty excited, even if it ended up needing some valve/gasket work. The bell housing and all the peripherals don't concern me as much as the prospect of having to replace heads, intake, and the exhaust manifolds--that is way over my budget for a 'fun' side project.

But, as always with these cars, something I was not aware of--the input shaft lengths on the top loader. I got the 302 and 4spd from a parts car, along with the 8' rear end. Everything looks like it fits on the 302/4spd, is there some way to tell when bolting up the trans if everything is fitting properly? I took a look last night, and I don't see the large plate that usually goes between the engine and the bell housing--is this required with a 4spd? I've only had automatics fro comparison, and they have them. Maybe this is why everything fits?

This could be a real mess--what do need to do to make everything fit? Can the bell housing be machine or something, or do I need to have the trans rebuilt and the shaft replaced?

Good tips on the 351. I would like something with more kick than the 302... once I square this trans issue.

Thanks again.

 

[2+2GT]

I took a look last night, and I don't see the large plate that usually goes between the engine and the bell housing--is this required with a 4spd? I've only had automatics fro comparison, and they have them. Maybe this is why everything fits?

This could be a real mess--what do need to do to make everything fit? Can the bell housing be machine or something, or do I need to have the trans rebuilt and the shaft replaced?

Good tips on the 351. I would like something with more kick than the 302... once I square this trans issue.

The rear engine cover is used on all engines, regardless of transmission type. The lower part of the auto version is removable for access to the torque converter nuts. The manual is one piece.

Why do you think you have a 390 trans if your engine and trans came together? The 390 input shaft is maybe a half inch shorter, and requires only a special pilot bushing to work properly on a smallblock.

About that lack of "kick" in the smaller engine:

 

[D.Hearne]

But, as always with these cars, something I was not aware of--the input shaft lengths on the top loader. I got the 302 and 4spd from a parts car, along with the 8' rear end. Everything looks like it fits on the 302/4spd, is there some way to tell when bolting up the trans if everything is fitting properly? I took a look last night, and I don't see the large plate that usually goes between the engine and the bell housing--is this required with a 4spd? I've only had automatics fro comparison, and they have them. Maybe this is why everything fits?

This could be a real mess--what do need to do to make everything fit? Can the bell housing be machine or something, or do I need to have the trans rebuilt and the shaft replaced?
Thanks again.

The plate between the bell and block is needed to index the starter, it can be run without it, but there can be starter engagement issues. If your toploader has it's Id tag still attached, you can look up it's original application here David Kee Toploader Transmissions, Inc. To seee if the input does fit into the pilot bearing, you can check this by bolting the transmission in with out the clutch and pressure plate and looking thru the clutch fork port. The Boss 302 pilot bushing was a fix for this as these engines got a big block toploader in place of the small block units. The front snout, the portion extending forward of the splines, was the only dimension different between a 390 specific toploader and a small block toploader.

 

[68Blue302Coupe]

The Boss 302 pilot bushing was a fix for this as these engines got a big block toploader in place of the small block units.

Thanks for all this, sure this will prevent some serious damage down the road. Anyone know where I can find the correct pilot bushing? I've looked through several catalogs and can't find one.

As for the origin of the trans, here's the tag info: C5AR:RUG-J. From what I found, this was wide ration originally spec'd for a Ford Fairlane GT with the 390.

I got it and the 302 for a song. This was not original equipment to the parts car. The poor Mustang this all came off of was a rusted out wreck of a 6 cylinder conversion still in progress. I got the engine, trans, and a Hurst shifter for less than the price of a decent used trans. I did have to get a new mounting kit for the shifter--the parts car had part of the tunnel cut out to accommodate what was clearly not the right shifter mounting kit--a really terrible job.

The engine that the toploader is connecting to is D10E-6015-AA, a 1971 Torino 302, 210 horsepower stock with 9.0:1 compression. Nothing fancy but a good solid driver.

 

[D.Hearne]

Thanks for all this, sure this will prevent some serious damage down the road. Anyone know where I can find the correct pilot bushing? I've looked through several catalogs and can't find one.

As for the origin of the trans, here's the tag info: C5AR:RUG-J. From what I found, this was wide ration originally spec'd for a Ford Fairlane GT with the 390.

I got it and the 302 for a song. This was not original equipment to the parts car. The poor Mustang this all came off of was a rusted out wreck of a 6 cylinder conversion still in progress. I got the engine, trans, and a Hurst shifter for less than the price of a decent used trans. I did have to get a new mounting kit for the shifter--the parts car had part of the tunnel cut out to accommodate what was clearly not the right shifter mounting kit--a really terrible job.

The engine that the toploader is connecting to is D10E-6015-AA, a 1971 Torino 302, 210 horsepower stock with 9.0:1 compression. Nothing fancy but a good solid driver.

Yea, you WILL need that bushing to make it work. The 302 block numbers don't neccessarily mean it came from a 71 Torino though. They only indicate that the block casting's engineering costs were assigned to the Torino/midsize car line. Same casting was used for other applications and additional years after 71. If you bolt it altogether without the clutch/pressure plate and look thru the clutch fork hole, you will see that the tip of the input just barely reaches the hole in the pilot bushing. It has to go into the hole to support the input shaft when the clutch is released. I went thru this with a 390/427 Mustang in trying to replace the original big block bell with one from a pickup truck. These bells are 5/8" deeper as are the small block bells for the Toploader. If all else fails, you can always find a machinist to make a bushing. It's dimensions will basically be the same as the regular bushing, only double the thickness. Should be made from oiled bronze.

 

[68Blue302Coupe]

Other than having one made, does anyone know where I can find the right bushing? How hard are they to replace?

 

[D.Hearne]

The hard part is removing it. That can be done using several things, soap, grease are two. You pack the hole with either, then force a tight fittign dowel into the hole. The hydraulic pressure will op the bushing out. Sometimes takes several trys to get er done.

 

[2+2GT]

Thanks for all this, sure this will prevent some serious damage down the road. Anyone know where I can find the correct pilot bushing? I've looked through several catalogs and can't find one.
That's because it went obsolete years ago. However, Fred at Glazier's was having them made, he may be able to provide one.

As for the origin of the trans, here's the tag info: C5AR:RUG-J. From what I found, this was wide ration originally spec'd for a Ford Fairlane GT with the 390.
Yep- RUG-J

I got it and the 302 for a song. This was not original equipment to the parts car. The poor Mustang this all came off of was a rusted out wreck of a 6 cylinder conversion still in progress. I got the engine, trans, and a Hurst shifter for less than the price of a decent used trans. I did have to get a new mounting kit for the shifter--the parts car had part of the tunnel cut out to accommodate what was clearly not the right shifter mounting kit--a really terrible job.
There was a plate, which is available, for attaching the stock shifter on the 390 trans. It seems Ford used the Fairlane style tail housing on many Mustangs. No reason you couldn't put a Hurst on the same plate.

The engine that the toploader is connecting to is D10E-6015-AA, a 1971 Torino 302, 210 horsepower stock with 9.0:1 compression. Nothing fancy but a good solid driver.
Don't assume it was in a Torino because it says D1OE. They were used in Mustangs, too. And Mavericks, and Comets…

 

[D.Hearne]

I did have to get a new mounting kit for the shifter--the parts car had part of the tunnel cut out to accommodate what was clearly not the right shifter mounting kit--a really terrible job.
.

You can also swap the tailshaft housing with one from a small block Toploader to move the shifter to the correct location for your car. The small block tailhousing is a direct bolt on swap for what you have now. I did just the opposite when I went with a Toploader in my 89 Ranger. I needed to move the shifter forward to clear the bench seat in the Ranger. Luckily I had both transmissions in hand to do the swap. The 390 trans and small block tail went to David Kee several years ago.

 

[68Blue302Coupe]

There was a plate, which is available, for attaching the stock shifter on the 390 trans. It seems Ford used the Fairlane style tail housing on many Mustangs. No reason you couldn't put a Hurst on the same plate.

The engine that the toploader is connecting to is D10E-6015-AA, a 1971 Torino 302, 210 horsepower stock with 9.0:1 compression. Nothing fancy but a good solid driver. Don't assume it was in a Torino because it says D1OE. They were used in Mustangs, too. And Mavericks, and Comets…

Yes. I ordered an install kit that should solve this problem a while back, just have not installed it yet. The plate in this new kit is different from the one off the hacked up doner. I'll be doing the install in the next few weeks and let you know.

True, block could have been from one of those other models, dosen't really matter for this application anyways. Just going off what I could decipher from the casting code. Regardless, its a '71 302, guess the rest is not important.

 

[D.Hearne]

Yes. I ordered an install kit that should solve this problem a while back, just have not installed it yet. The plate in this new kit is different from the one off the hacked up doner. I'll be doing the install in the next few weeks and let you know.

Did you order the install kit based on the transmission or the car it's going into? For it to correctly bolt onto your transmission, you'll need a kit for a 67 Fairlane or Mustang w/390. If you ordered the kit based on your car, you'll end up with the wrong shifter linkage rods. If you did the later and want to swap the tailhousing to fit your car, I've got a housing I'll trade you

 

[68Blue302Coupe]

Just getting back to this project after a several week break. I pulled the trans, bell housing, clutch, and flywheel today--everything. Great work in the 96 degree VA heat! The input shaft on the Top Loader is indeed the 3/4" one, and now I am just trying to figure out if the bearing in the 302 was ever modified to work with the 3/4" shaft. Other than bloting it back up, is how can I tell if the bearing is correct? Any measurements I need to look for?

D. Hearne, you mentioned possibly trading tail shafts. How hard is it to swap tails shafts on the Top Loaders? It looks like the gasket is leaking a little on my trans, so I might have to take it off anyways.

Thanks again for all your help.

 

[2+2GT]

How hard is it to swap tails shafts on the Top Loaders? It looks like the gasket is leaking a little on my trans, so I might have to take it off anyways.

R&R of the tailshaft housing is easy. The tailshaft, not so much. But the shaft can stay on if you're only changing the gasket.

 

[D.Hearne]

Just getting back to this project after a several week break. I pulled the trans, bell housing, clutch, and flywheel today--everything. Great work in the 96 degree VA heat! The input shaft on the Top Loader is indeed the 3/4" one, and now I am just trying to figure out if the bearing in the 302 was ever modified to work with the 3/4" shaft. Other than bloting it back up, is how can I tell if the bearing is correct? Any measurements I need to look for?

D. Hearne, you mentioned possibly trading tail shafts. How hard is it to swap tails shafts on the Top Loaders? It looks like the gasket is leaking a little on my trans, so I might have to take it off anyways.

Thanks again for all your help.

Remove the 5 bolts holding the tailhousing on and pull it off. Easy 5 minute job with the transmission out of the car. As for the pilot shaft measurement, the simplest way is to bolt the bell on the engine, minus the flywheel, clutch and pressure plate, then bolt the transmission onto the bell. Now loook thru the clutch fork hole with a flashlight to see where the end of the pilot shaft is in relation to the pilot bearing. You can try David Kee Toploader Transmissions, Inc. for a Boss 302 pilot bushing. If anyone's got these, he will. Or will know where to get one.

 

[68Blue302Coupe]

Thanks again for all your help. Here are a few pictures of the bell housing and bearing.

The bell housing P/N is D1TA394AA, which one site indicated was spec'd on a truck? I wonder if this would make any difference in needing/not needing that bearing? I guess I'll have to just bolt it all back together minus the clutch/fly/plate to be sure (although I'm not looking forwarded to it).

I did get in touch with Fred Glazier at mustangbarn.com, who has the Boss 302 pilot bearing (p/n G06442) for $40, so at least I they're out there.