67 Restomod Progress w/Question

Red5oh · Jun 1, 2009

Two things... this is an update on the car... been a WHILE. Got it inspected, insured and started driving it see if anything showed up. So far, nothing except what I need help on...

This is a EFI converted and it is falling on its face right off idle. It backfires and fires in the exhaust, and just runs bad right off idle. I have a feeling the injectors need help, but I am open to anything.

Thanks for the help and enjoy the pics.

afast93stang · Jun 1, 2009

Have you tried pulling the codes?

Red5oh · Jun 1, 2009

I need to do that, but I expect the EGR and a few that I replaced with 'bypass' parts. I will go see what it says.

afast93stang · Jun 1, 2009

The jumper port might be different but the codes should be the same - scroll down for them

Troublcodes.net Trouble Codes OBD & OBD2 Trouble Codes and Technical info & Tool Store. By BAT Auto Technical

Red5oh · Jun 1, 2009

I just got the codes and they were the following: 12, 21, 33, 44 and 94 which are the following: Cant increase idle, ECT out of range, EGR out of range, Problems with Thermactor Air Control system and Thermactor air system on the right side....

So, that is about it so far. Nothing literal about the injectors, etc. It is running very rich and the fumes made me turn on a fan to vent it out of the garage.

tx65coupe · Jun 2, 2009

I'm glad to hear that another vintage Mustang is back on the road! Too bad its not running right though.

Why not eliminate the EGR and other emissions stuff, since its in a classic that didn't require it to begin with?

stonecoldtx · Jun 2, 2009

Red5oh said:
I just got the codes and they were the following: 12, 21, 33, 44 and 94 which are the following: Cant increase idle, ECT out of range, EGR out of range, Problems with Thermactor Air Control system and Thermactor air system on the right side....

So, that is about it so far. Nothing literal about the injectors, etc. It is running very rich and the fumes made me turn on a fan to vent it out of the garage.

If you haven't done so already, you might want to check out the forums at

EECTuning.org • Index page

They have a wealth of information there . . .

If I were to guess, it sounds to me like perhaps don't have the idle speed or the TPS or perhaps the timing adjusted correctly. Maybe a combination of all three.

Since the codes indicate a problem with the idle, I'd start there.

To adjust the idle speed, you would disconnect the SPOUT and the MAF, and then adjust the idle speed to around 550RPM with the screw on the TB.

Then, make sure your TPS setting for that throttle blade opening is between .95 and .98 volts.

With the MAF connected, but the SPOUT still disconnected, the timing should be at 10-degrees BTDC; make sure and check that.

The ECT is the Engine Coolant Temperature sensor, so if you are getting errors here, you might check out the wiring to it, or even replace the sensor itself--it isn't very expensive.

I wouldn't worry too much about the AIR or EGR stuff . . . generally, they won't affect idle.

Oh, also--if you don't have some sort of tuning device (I have a TwEECer R/T), then you might consider taking the car to a competent tuner and have them sort out the issues and burn a chip for you . . .

Hope that helps . . .

jcode68 · Jun 2, 2009

Don't overlook the obvious - what firing order are you using for the distributor/plugs?

Red5oh · Jun 2, 2009

jcode68 said:
Don't overlook the obvious - what firing order are you using for the distributor/plugs?

Good call... I am using the 88+ firing order.

The strange thing is everything seems to be getting better the more I run it. I have some 'in-tank' injector cleaner and I am thinking of doing the pressurized rail cleaner... or just new injectors!!!! The more I drive it, the better it gets and it is starting to run great.

It wont hurt to look through everything and see where it takes me. It will only help.

thanks so far, I will keep trying what everyone suggests and let you know the outcome.

bnickel · Jun 2, 2009

were the engine and computer a matched pair, in other words did they come from the same car? if not that could be part of the problem and it will just take some time for the computer to learn the engine but, the suggestion about checking the timing and idle speed are good ones as is possibly a custom chip

Red5oh · Jun 2, 2009

The engine was from a 91 that had an engine fire... I had gotten a good deal on a full setup of the conversion harness from a guy in CA. I dont remember the name of the company, but it was harness, computer, mass air, sensors, EVERYTHING and I ******ed it up.

So, they are different, but it is getting better with time. I ordered another set of injectors (wont hurt anyway)... it is only popping slightly now and running better. It still has a very rich smell to it and when I put the new injectors in, I will replace the plugs.

I will keep you all updated and I appreciate the help.

Mark

stonecoldtx · Jun 2, 2009

Red5oh said:
The engine was from a 91 that had an engine fire... I had gotten a good deal on a full setup of the conversion harness from a guy in CA. I dont remember the name of the company, but it was harness, computer, mass air, sensors, EVERYTHING and I ******ed it up.

So, they are different, but it is getting better with time. I ordered another set of injectors (wont hurt anyway)... it is only popping slightly now and running better. It still has a very rich smell to it and when I put the new injectors in, I will replace the plugs.

I will keep you all updated and I appreciate the help.

Mark

Hi, Mark--you haven't indicated whether you performed any of the actions I mentioned--set the idle speed, the TPS and the timing as I mentioned.

Every single thing you have described can be traced back to these being not set correctly, or bad sensors--not bad injectors.

If you haven't done these things, I strongly recommend that you do. It only takes a few minutes to perform them . . .

Red5oh · Jun 2, 2009

I will get on it and let you know... I will do all you say, I promise! I am sorry I didnt in the first place. I had set the TPS and timing before, but I will recheck those. This is the first time I have heard of removing the MAF as well and I am eager to check that.

I needed the injectors anyway... they were out of my toolbox and who knows how old they were... VERY old probably.

I will do as you ask and lets get this thing much better (I am still enjoying it now!)

rebel65 · Jun 2, 2009

very cool info stonecold. it makes me feel like computers aren't that scary ; ).

reminds me of Zoolander at the computer scene where they did the 2001: A Space Odyssey monkey thing.

stonecoldtx · Jun 2, 2009

Red5oh said:
I will get on it and let you know... I will do all you say, I promise! I am sorry I didnt in the first place. I had set the TPS and timing before, but I will recheck those. This is the first time I have heard of removing the MAF as well and I am eager to check that.

I needed the injectors anyway... they were out of my toolbox and who knows how old they were... VERY old probably.

I will do as you ask and lets get this thing much better (I am still enjoying it now!)

I should probably clarify--when setting the idle, you just disconnect the wiring to the MAF sensor, and remove the SPOUT connector from the distributor; then--you set the idle speed to 550RPM.

Once you get that set, then you would want to re-connect the MAF wiring and set the timing on it to 10-degrees BTDC.

What happens is that the computer controls the timing curve, and uses ignition timing and the IAB (idle air bypass) to control the idle speed.

There is a compensation of 122RPM that is added when all is set, so your final idle speed should be in the neighborhood of 672RPM (on a stocker with all stock parts, anyway) with the MAF and the SPOUT reconnected.

These are the baseline settings, just to get it to operate as per how the computer is programmed.

Once you get that, then a competent tuner should be able to "wring" all the performance out of the engine that it's capbable of producing.

Good Luck!

68converted · Jun 3, 2009

Mark,
Please let us know how it works out. You're issues sound so similar to what is going on with mine, but I am sure all the performance stuff is a major issue for me as well.

I had also never heard of pulling the spout and MAF wiring. I will also try this tonight. thanks Stonecold

Thanks - Dave

Red5oh · Jun 3, 2009

Well... major accomplishments...

I checked the timing and that is the biggest problem (explain later)
I set the idle speed, very nice
I set the TPS, it was very close as it was.
Now back to the timing... the distributor is in a bit off. I have the plug wires in the wrong spot, seemingly to take care of the distributor several teeth off. I set it much better (while still being wrong) and this car WOKE UP!! There is NO hesitation and only some small backfiring that will only be cured by the correction of the main distributor issue. I am amazed and it is completely a different car!

I now will have to let it cool, find TDC and reset the distributor and wiring... no big deal. I dont remember doing all this, but my memory is not very good (its a long story, some of the reasons are on my cardomain pages) and I just messed it up. I am surprised it ran, but for the longest time all I had to do was back it in and out of the garage.

I will be out for a week on vacation and will fix it when I return, then tear the rubber off the tires and have fun in my "NEW" car that will run even better.

stonecoldtx · Jun 4, 2009

Red5oh said:
Well... major accomplishments...

I checked the timing and that is the biggest problem (explain later)
I set the idle speed, very nice
I set the TPS, it was very close as it was.
Now back to the timing... the distributor is in a bit off. I have the plug wires in the wrong spot, seemingly to take care of the distributor several teeth off. I set it much better (while still being wrong) and this car WOKE UP!! There is NO hesitation and only some small backfiring that will only be cured by the correction of the main distributor issue. I am amazed and it is completely a different car!

I now will have to let it cool, find TDC and reset the distributor and wiring... no big deal. I dont remember doing all this, but my memory is not very good (its a long story, some of the reasons are on my cardomain pages) and I just messed it up. I am surprised it ran, but for the longest time all I had to do was back it in and out of the garage.

I will be out for a week on vacation and will fix it when I return, then tear the rubber off the tires and have fun in my "NEW" car that will run even better.

That's great news man! I'm glad you were able to track down the issue!

jcode68 · Jun 4, 2009

Good work! Sounded like a timing issue... Glad it was something easy for you to resolve.

Red5oh · Jun 15, 2009

Ok... I am back from vacation... I really didnt want to come back

Anyway, I worked on the distributor issue, and here is some other interesting things.

The distributor was in there perfectly. I found TDC, and it was exactly in the spot it needed. The plug wires were ALL wrong, so I pulled all the plugs (platinum) and cleaned them all. Changed out the injectors to a new set I had (verified new, not OLD from the toolbox) and put everything back together. Put a timing light on it and it was at 10 perfectly... no moving around... NOTHING.

I put all back together and it is back to the sluggishness it was at before. NO low end power, popping and using a ton of gas again. The 10degree mark on the distributor matches the mark in the block and matches the marks on the balancer... so I dont believe anything has moved.

I checked the TPS sensor and it was still good. Ran it through the range and it moved properly (went up as the throttle opened). Reset idle with the IAC disconnected and it idles just fine... just not anything partial throttle... falls on its face, but full throttle and it is nice.

I want the car back I drove before I left where it was a real EFI mustang with plenty of low end power....

Anything else I should try at this point? Thanks

67 Restomod Progress w/Question

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