67 Restomod Progress w/Question

[stonecoldtx]

Ok... I am back from vacation... I really didnt want to come back

Anyway, I worked on the distributor issue, and here is some other interesting things.

The distributor was in there perfectly. I found TDC, and it was exactly in the spot it needed. The plug wires were ALL wrong, so I pulled all the plugs (platinum) and cleaned them all. Changed out the injectors to a new set I had (verified new, not OLD from the toolbox) and put everything back together. Put a timing light on it and it was at 10 perfectly... no moving around... NOTHING.

I put all back together and it is back to the sluggishness it was at before. NO low end power, popping and using a ton of gas again. The 10degree mark on the distributor matches the mark in the block and matches the marks on the balancer... so I dont believe anything has moved.

I checked the TPS sensor and it was still good. Ran it through the range and it moved properly (went up as the throttle opened). Reset idle with the IAC disconnected and it idles just fine... just not anything partial throttle... falls on its face, but full throttle and it is nice.

I want the car back I drove before I left where it was a real EFI mustang with plenty of low end power....

Anything else I should try at this point? Thanks

It sounds like we still have a problem with the timing; are you sure that the SPOUT is connected?

Also, when you say the 10-degree mark on the distributor, where are you getting that mark from? I don't recall ever seeing any marks of that type on the distributors of these cars.

There is also a possibility that the outer ring on the dampener ring has slipped, which would throw off the timing.

On EFI systems, the ECU tries to control the idle speed using the timing and the IAB motor. However, it relies upon certain assumptions regarding how much air is entering the engine via the TB, so that's why you have to set the idle in the manner I described before--disconnecting the SPOUT connector and the MAF connector, and then setting the idle speed to 550RPM.

Once those are set, and the TP sensor is set to around .95 or .96, if you still have a bog/cough when you give it throttle, you likely have issues elsewhere, such as a vaccuum leak, or maybe even low compression on one cylinder.

There are also the basics . . . rotor in distributor turns counterclockwise, firing order is 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8, etc.--it wouldn't hurt to check those out while you're at it, just to verify everything is right.

Let us know what you find out . . .

 

[wicked93gs]

just to verify you are sure that you found TDC on the compression stroke right? I have to agree with everyone else, this still sounds like a timing issue...also...while this may not apply on a Ford, I recently did a head gasket job on my brother's SBC truck and had an issue because the plug firing order I had was for an old vacuum advance distributor...whereas the new HEI distributor had a different one....one last thing, just to clarify...what is the firing order you are using? standard SBFs I believe use one firing order while HO engines use another(correct me if I am wrong here guys, I'm doing the mod motor thing and my information is based off of other pushrods and what I remember from my old 289 years ago)

 

[Red5oh]

It sounds like we still have a problem with the timing; are you sure that the SPOUT is connected?

Also, when you say the 10-degree mark on the distributor, where are you getting that mark from? I don't recall ever seeing any marks of that type on the distributors of these cars.

There is also a possibility that the outer ring on the dampener ring has slipped, which would throw off the timing.

On EFI systems, the ECU tries to control the idle speed using the timing and the IAB motor. However, it relies upon certain assumptions regarding how much air is entering the engine via the TB, so that's why you have to set the idle in the manner I described before--disconnecting the SPOUT connector and the MAF connector, and then setting the idle speed to 550RPM.

Once those are set, and the TP sensor is set to around .95 or .96, if you still have a bog/cough when you give it throttle, you likely have issues elsewhere, such as a vaccuum leak, or maybe even low compression on one cylinder.

There are also the basics . . . rotor in distributor turns counterclockwise, firing order is 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8, etc.--it wouldn't hurt to check those out while you're at it, just to verify everything is right.

Let us know what you find out . . .

Ok, I appreciate the help... the spout is connected at this time and you can tell the difference when it is in vs. out.

The 10 degree mark is the 'cut' in the distributor vs. the mark in the block that sets the engine to 10 deg when they line up... and lined up, it reads dead nuts 10 degrees.

From what I remember, the dampener was replaced since the engine was from a upper engine fire car... I replaced the heads, regasketed the whole thing and all the intake, distributor, hoses, etc... new

I set it last night according to your request with the spout out, IAB disconnected and MAF unplugged. It sits just fine at 600 rpm with ease.

I measured the TP sensor again, and its at .96 I even played with moving it to make sure it was increasing as throttle position increased. It worked fine as well.

I looked at the distributor and it does turn counter clockwise and the firing order is exactly what you say.

The one thing a friend of mine reminded me about was the cam... this is the 4th time we (as our friends) have used this Crane 2031 cam and mine have always been standards... his was an auto, and he always said if he did it again, to put it in 2 deg advanced at the timing chain. I did buy a new adjustable chain, and I feel (dont remember) its in there at 2 deg. I am going to search for the emails from 4 years ago to verify this. Will this have an impact on the timing mark we are seeing while adjusting the timing? If I turn the distributor to put the 16 degrees... it wakes up and everything is great. I may even try to drive it a bit and listen for knocking...

Otherwise, I have checked all the hoses and nothing is leaking, I have checked for leaks with carb cleaner and it has no impact.... I am leaning towards a wiring issue at this point, but unsure.

Thanks so much for the help!

I just looked and it was planned to put the cam in at 4 degrees advanced to get the rpm range from 2000-5000 since it was not built to be very fast car... so we are dealing with 4 degrees difference... how will that affect the showing on the balancer? Maybe makes sense that it runs much better when the timing is set at the 14-16 mark, instead of 10

 

[stonecoldtx]

The 10 degree mark is the 'cut' in the distributor vs. the mark in the block that sets the engine to 10 deg when they line up... and lined up, it reads dead nuts 10 degrees.

The one thing a friend of mine reminded me about was the cam... this is the 4th time we (as our friends) have used this Crane 2013 cam and mine have always been standards... his was an auto, and he always said if he did it again, to put it in 2 deg advanced at the timing chain. I did buy a new adjustable chain, and I feel (dont remember) its in there at 2 deg. I am going to search for the emails from 4 years ago to verify this. Will this have an impact on the timing mark we are seeing while adjusting the timing? If I turn the distributor to put the 16 degrees... it wakes up and everything is great. I may even try to drive it a bit and listen for knocking...

Thanks so much for the help!

OK, so--the timing mark on my bone stock '89 5.0L coupe is a plate with a pointer, and a notch in the dampener; on the dampener is a series of lines with degree marks next to them.

You may need to make sure of a couple of things:

1.) Make sure the dampener and timing indicator are from the same vehicle; different vehicles could cause the timing to be off because the pointer may be in a different place
2.) Make sure that when #1 is at TDC, your timing marks like up at TDC, and not 10-degrees BTDC. Then, if the timing marks match up correctly, you should be able to start the car with the SPOUT connector out and adjust the initial to 10-degrees with a timing light.

To answer your question regarding advancing the cam--it won't have an effect on the ignition timing, because all you are doing is advancing the camshaft in relation to the crank. For example, if the intake lobe on #1 opened at 19-degrees ATDC, it will now open at 17-degrees ATDC when you advance the camshaft 2-degrees.

The camshaft goes in, the timing chain & gears go on, with the advance factored in, and then the distributor, which is driven off of the camshaft, goes in, and you adjust the ignition timing from that point.

If you were to remove the timing cover and adjust the advance of the camshaft without removing or changing the location of the distributor, then yes, it would have a slight effect on the ignition timing, but because the camshaft went in before the distributor did, whatever advance or retard of the camshaft was made prior to installing the distributor is irrelevant at this point.

Another thing you could do is perform a compression test on the engine; it won't take long, and would eliminate another possibility if all the cylinders are within 10% or so of each other.

 

[Red5oh]

OK, so--the timing mark on my bone stock '89 5.0L coupe is a plate with a pointer, and a notch in the dampener; on the dampener is a series of lines with degree marks next to them.

You may need to make sure of a couple of things:

1.) Make sure the dampener and timing indicator are from the same vehicle; different vehicles could cause the timing to be off because the pointer may be in a different place
2.) Make sure that when #1 is at TDC, your timing marks like up at TDC, and not 10-degrees BTDC. Then, if the timing marks match up correctly, you should be able to start the car with the SPOUT connector out and adjust the initial to 10-degrees with a timing light.

To answer your question regarding advancing the cam--it won't have an effect on the ignition timing, because all you are doing is advancing the camshaft in relation to the crank. For example, if the intake lobe on #1 opened at 19-degrees ATDC, it will now open at 17-degrees ATDC when you advance the camshaft 2-degrees.

The camshaft goes in, the timing chain & gears go on, with the advance factored in, and then the distributor, which is driven off of the camshaft, goes in, and you adjust the ignition timing from that point.

If you were to remove the timing cover and adjust the advance of the camshaft without removing or changing the location of the distributor, then yes, it would have a slight effect on the ignition timing, but because the camshaft went in before the distributor did, whatever advance or retard of the camshaft was made prior to installing the distributor is irrelevant at this point.

Another thing you could do is perform a compression test on the engine; it won't take long, and would eliminate another possibility if all the cylinders are within 10% or so of each other.

Ok, great... this is what I will work on...

I cannot verify the year of the dampener... no receipt found, but it was more than likely ordered for an efi car, and I tried to get everything for the 91

I am also not sure where the front timing cover came from. I may have had it sitting around also and chose to use it instead of the burnt one. It might be a pre-90 model. That might make a small difference. I will look for some numbers on it to determine the year. I do know they would all be off a mustang and nothing else, and all of them were v8 cars.

I am also going to pull out the distributor and make sure its not 'one' tooth off... maybe that would make a small difference in me setting it at 10 and it not necessarily running great, but the 14-16 mark makes it run great!

I will also do a compression test to eliminate that.

I probably wont do it today as I am not feeling the best, but I will try for tomorrow and post up the results.

I absolutely appreciate the time and trouble everyone is giving me.

 

[67coupe]

Check out this link for general EFI trouble shooting.

http://forums.stangnet.com/698148-help-me-create-surging-idle-checklist.html

For the ECT code, scoll down to #11. You need to measure the voltage across the ECT sensor to determine if it is out of range. If so, this WILL cause air fuel and timing issues.

As far as the distributor is concerned, the factory cap has the #1 terminal marked. It is marked for a very good reason. There is a hall effect sensor in the dizzy that determines INJECTOR pulse order. If the plug wire for the #1 cylinder is NOT on the terminal marked #1, your injectors will be opening at the wrong time. You MUST have the #1 plug wire on the terminal marked as #1 on the cap.

 

[stonecoldtx]

Check out this link for general EFI trouble shooting.

http://forums.stangnet.com/698148-help-me-create-surging-idle-checklist.html

For the ECT code, scoll down to #11. You need to measure the voltage across the ECT sensor to determine if it is out of range. If so, this WILL cause air fuel and timing issues.

As far as the distributor is concerned, the factory cap has the #1 terminal marked. It is marked for a very good reason. There is a hall effect sensor in the dizzy that determines INJECTOR pulse order. If the plug wire for the #1 cylinder is NOT on the terminal marked #1, your injectors will be opening at the wrong time. You MUST have the #1 plug wire on the terminal marked as #1 on the cap.

That's a good point--I wasn't even considering the possibility that the distributor wouldn't be lined up properly!

 

[Red5oh]

Check out this link for general EFI trouble shooting.

http://forums.stangnet.com/698148-help-me-create-surging-idle-checklist.html

For the ECT code, scoll down to #11. You need to measure the voltage across the ECT sensor to determine if it is out of range. If so, this WILL cause air fuel and timing issues.

As far as the distributor is concerned, the factory cap has the #1 terminal marked. It is marked for a very good reason. There is a hall effect sensor in the dizzy that determines INJECTOR pulse order. If the plug wire for the #1 cylinder is NOT on the terminal marked #1, your injectors will be opening at the wrong time. You MUST have the #1 plug wire on the terminal marked as #1 on the cap.

I have started to read the list on the link... I KNOW we will find this soon!

As for the distributor... the initial problem with it being ALL wrong is now correct and I have put the plug wire for #1 in the correct position. I now know that is absolutely correct.

I also need to pull codes again since the fixing of the distributor wiring and see what they say. I hope to be able to work on it tonight and get this stuff finalized.

I am in no great hurry, as the car took a ton of time to build and I took time off... so it was patient with me... I will be patient with it as well.

Thanks

 

[Red5oh]

Alright... we have finally fixed this thing.

In my infinate wisdom (not much of it) I very neatly described what the distributor was at... the 10 degree mark with it point to #1, etc (read above)

Stonecoldtx asked me to make sure on a few simple things again... well, that was the problem. It was ONE TOOTH OFF!!!!!! It was point at the above mark (10 deg) not zero, so I moved the distibutor one tooth, went through all the settings again described above and BANG... no problems.

The car woke up, no popping, backfiring, idles even better now. I expect the gas mileage to improve and the raw fuel smell to go completely away.

I cannot thank you people enough for your help and your patience with a not so bright guy anymore. I hope to be able to pass it on in the future.

Now its off to drive it in the morning and to schedule to have the AC hoses made so it wont be so hot... since I am in Texas.

 

[stonecoldtx]

Alright... we have finally fixed this thing.

In my infinate wisdom (not much of it) I very neatly described what the distributor was at... the 10 degree mark with it point to #1, etc (read above)

Stonecoldtx asked me to make sure on a few simple things again... well, that was the problem. It was ONE TOOTH OFF!!!!!! It was point at the above mark (10 deg) not zero, so I moved the distibutor one tooth, went through all the settings again described above and BANG... no problems.

The car woke up, no popping, backfiring, idles even better now. I expect the gas mileage to improve and the raw fuel smell to go completely away.

I cannot thank you people enough for your help and your patience with a not so bright guy anymore. I hope to be able to pass it on in the future.

Now its off to drive it in the morning and to schedule to have the AC hoses made so it wont be so hot... since I am in Texas.

That's awesome man! Congratulations! I'm glad you were able to trace down the problem!

I can't take credit for suggesting that you check the distributor--that was suggested by 67coupe--and a good suggestion it was!

 

[67coupe]

Glad you fixed it.