70mm or 65mm TB ?

[cobra92usa]

Oh and about running me...bring it! We can do it at the track or on the street from a roll. Doesn't matter to me.

Sounds like a challenge . . . . now . . . :Zip2: . . . and . . . :Track: ! ! !

NO BALLS . . . . then post the video and ET's here for all to see !!

 

[millhouse]

8psi on one motor isn't the same as 8psi on another motor. Boost is a show of restriction and nothing else. So if your car breathes better than my car then 8psi on your gauge is more positive pressure than 8psi on my gauge. Understand how that works?

Oh and about running me...bring it! We can do it at the track or on the street from a roll. Doesn't matter to me.

Dude, 8psi is 8psi...regardless! They may not flow the same volume of air, but it is still the same positive pressure on both setups.

I tell ya, if I actually knew where you lived (you dont have a signature or bio) and were close enough.....I would!

 

[Dino Dino Bambino]

That throttle response you speak of comes at a cost….the loss of throttle modulation. The larger the throttle body, the less modulation you will have. When going too big, you’ll run into tip in issues where a very small amount of throttle amounts to a huge swing in the change of airflow into the engine. While this may be fine in a track only car, the loss of modulation can be a pita on a daily driver.

That is indeed true but I have a Summit Racing 75mm TB on my Stang (basic bolt-ons plus DIY ported factory heads/intake) and throttle modulation on tip in isn't an issue. I just ported the opening of the upper intake to match the 75mm bore. No problem. I also have the C&L 76mm MAF kit.

For your basic H/C/I car (stock displacement), a 65mm or 70mm TB is fine.

Correct again but if you decide to take the stroker route (331 or 347) later on, you might wish you bought the 75mm TB right from the outset.

 

[millhouse]

That is indeed true but I have a Summit Racing 75mm TB on my Stang (basic bolt-ons plus DIY ported factory heads/intake) and throttle modulation on tip in isn't an issue. I just ported the opening of the upper intake to match the 75mm bore. No problem. I also have the C&L 76mm MAF kit
.

I wouldn't expect tip in to be an issue on a 75mm T.B., and for many, the loss of modulation won't be an issue. I've however talked to many people that wish they wouldn't have oversized their T.B. because it in escence turned into a on/off switch in thier eyes.

Correct again but if you decide to take the stroker route (331 or 347) later on, you might wish you bought the 75mm TB right from the outset.

I hear where your coming from...but sometimes you have to bite the bullet and buy things twice. That same stroker kit is going to require much larger inectors...but you don't see people oversizing them to that degree. That same stroker is going to want a bigger/better flowing heads and intake.....yet most people aren't slapping on massive TFS high ports or 225 AFR heads on the 302. It's just the nature of the beast.

 

[Stopsign32v]

For the people that do not want to buy things first here is the absolute best advice for anyone that even has a chance they might go 331/347 later but justs wants a H/C/I right now.

Go with a 75mm TB. It will drive fine and give you the absolute best performance possible on a H/C/I 302 especially if you plan to rev it high.

Notch the pistons!!! This is a very simple and easy thing to do so that you can run bigger heads now and more camshaft so you can take advantage of the 6,000+rpms.

Buy heads that you can grow into. I did the mistake of buying AFR 165s. They did fine on my 302 but when I wanted to go stroker they would be the heads that will hold me back so I've spent money twice. Some awsome heads that you can grow into are a set of Twisted Wedge heads or AFR 185s.

Go ahead and get a 4" powerpipe now it will only help your performance. Brian at AFM says there is no combination that he knows of that will not gain power by going to a 4" powerpipe over those stupid dinky BBK CAIs and the Ebay ones.

A good cheap MAF that will fit well with the 4" powerpipe is a lightning 90mm maf. Again you cannot hurt performance with a larger MAF and this will keep you from buying another MAF later when you go to stroke your motor or simply add more power. You can search on Ebay and find this MAF all day and night for $70 and some change.

So for anyone that doesn't wanna take other people's advice and spend your money twice, listen to someone that has spent their money twice and use their mistakes instead of yours.

 

[tstang21]

I agree totally with what he told you and think you are doing a wise choice.

thanks man

 

[millhouse]

For the people that do not want to buy things first here is the absolute best advice for anyone that even has a chance they might go 331/347 later but justs wants a H/C/I right now.

Go with a 75mm TB. It will drive fine and give you the absolute best performance possible on a H/C/I 302 especially if you plan to rev it high.

A basic h/c/i 302 will produce no more horsepower with 75mm TB than it would with a 65mm TB. If you plan on revving it to 7000+ rpm...then hell yes. Anything that is going to see 6500rpm or less is going to notice no difference in power...but again, there will be a loss in modulation.

Notch the pistons!!! This is a very simple and easy thing to do so that you can run bigger heads now and more camshaft so you can take advantage of the 6,000+rpms.

Simple for some, yes. IMHO, it's not very practical...and is purely a band-aid to having a mismatched combo. If you know for a fact that your going big later...it will be necessary if you want to run the larger valved heads now. Once again though, you've got to pay to play...and it's money that is wasted as you plan on upgrading pistons eventually anyways.

Buy heads that you can grow into. I did the mistake of buying AFR 165s. They did fine on my 302 but when I wanted to go stroker they would be the heads that will hold me back so I've spent money twice. Some awsome heads that you can grow into are a set of Twisted Wedge heads or AFR 185s.

Now that's some sound advice.


Go ahead and get a 4" powerpipe now it will only help your performance. Brian at AFM says there is no combination that he knows of that will not gain power by going to a 4" powerpipe over those stupid dinky BBK CAIs and the Ebay ones.

A good cheap MAF that will fit well with the 4" powerpipe is a lightning 90mm maf. Again you cannot hurt performance with a larger MAF and this will keep you from buying another MAF later when you go to stroke your motor or simply add more power. You can search on Ebay and find this MAF all day and night for $70 and some change.

The lightning maf has it's place and is an excellent unit. While it will support decent horsepower levels in draw through format...when used as a blow through (I'm talking forced induction here) it is not an ideal choice.

I will say too that going with a larger MAF meter can absolutely hurt perfomance. An oversized MAF meter will have far to small of a resolution...and can cause all sorts of driveability issues....many which can not be tuned out. Any competent tuner or MAF manufacturer can guide you on proper sizing.

So for anyone that doesn't wanna take other people's advice and spend your money twice, listen to someone that has spent their money twice and use their mistakes instead of yours. :nice

There are some things that when one right....constitute the proper parts. Again, I'm all for planning on the future...but there are some things that just should not be over done just to over do it. If you know for a fact...without a doubt that you are going to be upgrading your combo to necessitate those intems in the near future...then by all means, buy those items now. Just don't do it on a whim...or because you think that you might buy a stroker kit in 5 years.

Keep in mind too that you will recoupe much of the orignal costs by selling your old...so the costs would be far far less than starting from scratch.

 

[5spd GT]

Let's see, throw on a 4.00" intake piping, and have a 75 mm TB (~3.00") on it so you do not have a restriction?

If you want to match the intake, throw on a 100 mm TB.

Yeah, makes sense.

Does anyone in here think that one valve (TB) flows the same as another valve at the same millimeter diameter? It does not.

Some guys get swindled by salesmen easier than others.

 

[Stopsign32v]

Let's see, throw on a 4.00" intake piping, and have a 75 mm TB (~3.00") on it so you do not have a restriction?

If you want to match the intake, throw on a 100 mm TB.

Yeah, makes sense.

Some guys get swindled by salesmen easier than others.

Actually I said a 75mm RACE Accufab TB. And I'm sure YOU know but for others that aren't as smart as YOU are I will explain the difference between a race one and a non race one. The race series Accufab TBs bell out to a 90mm. So at the open where you match it up to the 4" intake pipe it is 90mm. Then it goes down to a 75mm at the blade. So you have the driveability of the 75mm TB but a nice bell that will make the 4" to 75mm a good transacting.

But ofcourse a smart guy such as yourself already knew all of this.

 

[5spd GT]

Actually I said a 75mm RACE Accufab TB. And I'm sure YOU know but for others that aren't as smart as YOU are I will explain the difference between a race one and a non race one. The race series Accufab TBs bell out to a 90mm. So at the open where you match it up to the 4" intake pipe it is 90mm. Then it goes down to a 75mm at the blade. So you have the driveability of the 75mm TB but a nice bell that will make the 4" to 75mm a good transacting.

But ofcourse a smart guy such as yourself already knew all of this.

No need to get personal.

There is nothing fancy on the differences.

However, I still would like an answer on why a 75 mm TB is good on a 4.00" pipe, whether it is the entire TB (none are like this) or the minimum cross section of the TB. How is the 4.00" pipe going to be used, when you have a 3.00" restriction.

Now think of area, not diameter.

 

[Stopsign32v]

New 94-95 Natural Aspirated Power Pipe®
AF-0119c
for 77-83mm Pro-M Shorties Mass Air
With TFS Twisted Wedge Heads, Vortech Intake, AFM B-31 Cam,
80mm Pro-M Mass Air, BBK 70mm TB, 30lb Inj., BBK Headers,
X-Pipe, Flowmaster Mufflers

Hint: the size of the piping isn't the only reason it will make more power over a crappy little $50 intake. Think about it.

Not to mention this is another good example of plan ahead.

 

[5spd GT]

Alright, I will play your game for a little while longer.

Who's dyno graph is that? Your's or AFM's? Any more detail on that?

Who is to say that a 3.50" pipe would not do the same?

So again, why have a 75 mm TB (opening or minimum area), on a 101.6 mm pipe? What good is the pipe going to do?

I have been wanting an answer for a few post now.

 

[Black95GTS]

Steeda Triax shifter FTW!

Adam

 

[Stopsign32v]

Alright, I will play your game for a little while longer.

Who's dyno graph is that? Your's or AFM's? Any more detail on that?

Who is to say that a 3.50" pipe would not do the same?

So again, why have a 75 mm TB (opening or minimum area), on a 101.6 mm pipe? What good is the pipe going to do?

I have been wanting an answer for a few post now.

The air will be much cooler from the power pipe and placing the MAF in the fender will also make more power. AND AGAIN this intake will allow you to upgrade later and it will still make power. If you or anyone else would like more indepth information here you should call AFM and talk to either Rick or Brian about this. Both great guys to deal with.

 

[5spd GT]

The air will be much cooler from the power pipe and placing the MAF in the fender will also make more power. AND AGAIN this intake will allow you to upgrade later and it will still make power. If you or anyone else would like more indepth information here you should call AFM and talk to either Rick or Brian about this. Both great guys to deal with.

This sounds like a sales ad for AFM.

Now, how much cooler is the air going to be in the fenderwell, than another "cold air intake" that sits in the fender?

So how hot does the air get within a couple feet, from entry to intake, moving probably 100 feet a second at WOT? I will tell you that a few of the "ECU" guys have tested the temperature differences and it is negligible with some datalogging.

Does the multiple bends not impede anything, or is a straighter shot to the intake better?

So again, why is a 75 mm TB needed, but you also need a 4.00" pipe to match it, when there is 12.6 square inches of cross section for the AFM pipe, but only 6.84 square inches for the 75 mm TB in cross section?

Is that YOUR dyno graph, or is that AFM's dyno graph about THEIR product that they are trying to sell?


Just some questions for you to ponder on.

 

[Stopsign32v]

Don't have alot of time to sit here and go back and forth. Thus why I told you to contact AFM because I'm sure they can answer all of your questions. However here is some of the things that come to mind fast.

More air per inch = better cooling. The more water you have in a pot the longer it takes to boil

Ceramic coating > Chrome coating

Stock MAF is too small IMO so bigger = better

As far as bends go some say a straight shot is better. I personally don't think it matters since the air is being drawn in and not pushed in.

 

[5spd GT]

Air is being both drawn in and pushed in; it depends on how you look at it.

It all comes down to the delta p (change in pressure; pressure differential), from the cylinder to the outside atmospheric pressure.

I consider it being more pushed in, since the higher air pressure in the intake trac is pushing the air into the cylinder. But as I say, TOEmato, TAHmato.

The chrome coating vs. the ceramic coating, yep sure I agree to that, if we were talking headers that see direct exhaust temps in the 1350-1450 degree range. Those "cold air intakes" are sucking in the ambient air and is traveling very fast. Ceramic or chrome, does not matter, more air per cubic inch does not matter at 3.00" - 4.00" (6.84^2 - 12.56^2)either.

On the piping and straight vs. curvy air flow, this is a no brainer. Straighter air equals more power and less turbulence, which creates better readings.

Yes, the stock MAF size/parameters is to small for a H/C/I 302, or greater.

So what good does a 75 mm TB (opening or closing diameter) on a 101.6 mm intake pipe?

 

[Stopsign32v]

Air is not being pushed into a N/A motor. In my book there is no reason NOT to go with a 4" powerpipe and a 75mm TB. It not only will get the most power possible but it will allow you to grow later into a better combination without having to buy new parts.

 

[hollywoodstang]

LMAO @ Stopsign32v. OMG such a er