'93 Fox - On3 Turbo Build Project- PICS

Franomania · Jun 10, 2021

awesome sounds good -- do you want logs from cold start, warm or both?

a91what · Jun 10, 2021

Franomania said:
awesome sounds good -- do you want logs from cold start, warm or both?

all of it, you can just start one log and let it run

Franomania · Jun 10, 2021

Looking immediately much better!! see attached log from cold start up to about 170deg, wasnt getting up much further since it was just idling. Around 145deg it started oscillating. It still has the mech fan on so the bit of air passing over might help it stay a bit cooler than stat temp at idle in my garage.
I gave it a few blips of the throttle as well at the end of the log.

a91what · Jun 10, 2021

This is just a fuel adjustment.

Franomania · Jun 11, 2021

So i took another log from cold start again. Oscillations have definitely improved on the warm up along with after throttle blip idling as well. On startup car took a bit more cycles to fire up, maybe i'll need to play with the ASE, but after my research i shouldnt worry about that until the warm idle is settled down.
Thanks again Steve....you are a magician with these it seems. Cant wait to till i have a better understanding.

a91what · Jun 11, 2021

The oscillation could be a few things, I would first try easing back on the ign correction at idle. Look for this at the bottom of the idle settings, don't mess with the rpm values just make the advance numbers smaller.

Franomania · Jun 13, 2021

Update:
After a few days of tinkering, all i was able to accomplish was lowering the PWM initial table values which seemed to help out. Changing the adaptive advance really didn't seem to do enough. So with a half decent idle I decided to try and go up and down the street a few times. I thought it might be premature but I was convinced to try out VEAL on low speed/RPM. It was immediately raising cells but also under decel instantly removing fuel from the same cells. Not sure if this is normal but i'm not going to mess with it anymore just yet.

More importantly, i found out my idle & recovery still is not good enough as the car continued to die once i let off the throttle which began to happen more and more frequently not necessarily after a certain sequence. I am almost at my witts end trying to tinker and play around, Feel's like i'm chasing my own tail.

Anything stick out here why it would be dying off after blipping the throttle/after driving for about 10s? I get these massive AFR spikes as well out of nowhere.
Last thought throwing this out there. Is it possible my MAP is not functioning properly intermittently? It stays dead constant during different TPS positions shown below.

I have attached the log from driving around with part-time VEAL (about an hour) along with a short one of it just dying off by itself.

Any ideas are more than welcome!

a91what · Jun 13, 2021

Is your map sensor behind a check valve? I ask because I do not see a change in the map reading in the picture above until after the car is off.

Franomania · Jun 13, 2021

The hose runs from the vac tree direct inside the car, to a tee for both boost gauge and MS. Its an MSPNP2 and calibrated to internal MAP.

a91what · Jun 15, 2021

you idle at 28kpa; the max kpa at sea level is 100kpa your max kpa is 89 so I have to assume you are at a higher altitude. you could turn on the baro sensor in general settings and use %baro as the fuel load if this is the case.

as it sits now your lowest fuel row is likely 30kpa but you idle at 28kpa... this means that you are using 30kpa for cruise range at speed and for decel. You need to rescale the VE table

Franomania · Jun 15, 2021

Im in toronto so it's not high. I noticed the same, which is leading me to believe malfunctioning MAP. Lower than normal Kpa at atmospheric and lower than normal at idle/decel. Gets to min of 14kpa under decel which I haven't seen usually.

a91what · Jun 15, 2021

Franomania said:
Im in toronto so it's not high. I noticed the same, which is leading me to believe malfunctioning MAP. Lower than normal Kpa at atmospheric and lower than normal at idle/decel. Gets to min of 14kpa under decel which I haven't seen usually.

you should be calibrated to a MPXH6400 for the map and a one bar for the baro sensor

Franomania · Jul 2, 2021

At long last my PiMP unit came in the mail today (it had shipped out May 12!!!) Naturally i hopped into the garage right away, put all the correct jumpers in, loaded up the firmware and the base tune supplied with the unit and calibrate TPS & AFR.
Unfortunately it didn't go as well as i hoped. MAP is reading accurately now on the plus side ~100kpa.
The car will fire up quick, but refuses to idle above about 500rpm. I had tried sweeping timing, sweeping IAC, open loop etc. and it refuses to move. Also it is stumbling really bad and shoots the odd backfire so i've been hesitant to keep it running long enough to warm up until it runs a bit better.
I'm stumped.
I am hoping i am missing something obvious buried in one of the new MS3 menus. Car idled well with the MSPNP2 not sure whats going on here now. I also tried carrying over all the idle/fuel/ignition tables over as well with no luck. @a91what any ideas?

Franomania · Jul 6, 2021

So found some good news out -- when i wired it up, one of the jumpers has a typo on the circuit board (pin position does not match the voltage printed on the board). Car runs good, MAP is accurate. AFR is about 0.5 off from gauge to TS, but ill play with the calibration a bit to get it a touch closer. Will update once i get out for a drive but so far so good!

a91what · Jul 6, 2021

Sorry I didnt get back to you. Glad you were able to figure the problem out, as for the voltage offset that is usually a wiring issue. What WB and where do you have the grounds?

Franomania · Jul 6, 2021

Yeah sounds like an extremely common issue -- It's an MTX-L Plus. I have power coming from an add-a-circuit off a switched fuse, both the white (dimmer) and black (GND) connected together per the manual (since i dont care to dim) and going to the ECU ground in the pass footwell. I've read this is the best way.
Only other tidbit i can think of after the fact is i also wired my boost gauge backlight to the same power and ground as the WB. I don't have enough electrical knowledge to know if this could be the culprit.

a91what · Jul 6, 2021

Nope likely you just have to deal with the voltage offset then, some of the WB come with an analog - wire that you wire into the sensor ground

Franomania · Jul 8, 2021

Quick update...boost is FUN. Even though I have spent very little time up in boost range it is a completely different animal even just on the gate pressure right now. More than i expected seat of the pants anyways. Going slowly, each time i head out for a ride i get higher into the RPM and load cells with VEAL, then extrapolate so i do not have major differences where VEAL didn't touch yet. Still needs some more seat time but my cruise cells on normal are barely moving anymore which is great and giving me more confidence to lay into the throttle some more.

Have noticed a few things though:
1. i have a hot start issue - more fuel doesnt help, flood clear doesn't help after a few cranks and then voila after a handful of tries it just fires up with no problem. Scratching my head with this one..
2. i am getting some lean spikes when i giving quick blips on the throttle but after i come off of it. Is there a good guide for calculating this or just by trial and error? not urgent as the VE still needs some work, but its close enough during idle and cruise i feel to start dabbling in it. (shown in 07/08/2021 log)

2. My idle AFR around 180deg is richer than 200deg -- naturally i would assume it's an air density issue at temperature, but don't know where to start with this. Not a huge problem but something to think about.

Heres my current VE and i uploaded a tune and a quick log (with lots of sitting in traffic ...) for any suggestions that might stick out right now.

a91what · Jul 9, 2021

Rescale the ve table... 200, 175, 150, 125, 100 90 80 then smaller steps to fill the cruise range in better.

Now that lean spike is happening after you lift the throttle... That's not a lean spike that's normal.
But to verify I need to see the map signal as that is the load value the afr follows.

Franomania · Jul 29, 2021

So i rescaled the table as you mentioned, but the lean spike is still happening. I feel that VEAL is always in a push/pull scenario. As i accelerate it adds, then on decel/cruise/1-5% throttle in the same cells it wants to pull fuel. This happens in several areas of the map that i consistently have to retouch manually.

Also, the car absolutely stinks!....stinks up my garage that is. It's not a raw fuel smell, but almost a good mix of raw/exhaust smell if that makes sense. I checked for fuel leaks for good measure everywhere along the way from fuel pump to injectors and nothing. Its definitely stronger at the front of the car which only brings me to two places. The charcoal canister or the atmospheric crankcase venting.
Does anyone elses turbo car stink up the joint and what can be done to combat this?

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