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Can Anyone Help With A9l?

  • Thread starter Thread starter 95BlueStallion
  • Start date Start date Jan 29, 2018
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Mustang5L5

That is…until I whipped out my Bissell
Mod Dude
Feb 18, 2001
43,237
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Jan 30, 2018
#41
  • Jan 30, 2018
  • #41
Those starter solenoids are fairly easy to test, but you need a digital multimeter.

Is the AM part an actual motorcraft unit?
 

Mustang5L5

That is…until I whipped out my Bissell
Mod Dude
Feb 18, 2001
43,237
17,922
224
Massachusetts
Jan 30, 2018
#42
  • Jan 30, 2018
  • #42
So some more diagnostic info from the EVTM

Testing the TFI to see if it has proper voltage








Btw, if you pull the small center post wire off the starter relay, it won't bridge the relay and activate the starter. Some of these tests have you checking voltage in start position, but you can pull that wire off to avoid cranking the motor each time
 

95BlueStallion

My assy trans to myself
15 Year Member
Feb 22, 2007
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Jan 30, 2018
#43
  • Jan 30, 2018
  • #43
Thanks for posting that. I will check that tomorrow night. Maaaaybe late tonight after the kids are in bed.
 

95BlueStallion

My assy trans to myself
15 Year Member
Feb 22, 2007
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Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Jan 30, 2018
#44
  • Jan 30, 2018
  • #44
Got home and didnt even go in the house. I disconnected the ground on the firewall, sanded the firewall to bright shiney metal, sanded the ground strap loop to shiney metal and reconnected. I then double checked the dedicated computer ground, and it is still tightly secured to the fenderwell mount. The connector is clean and secure as well. No signs of corrosion anywhere around that area. Tried starting the car, no change after the firewall ground work.
 

RaggedGT

Been here over a DECADE and still no CT
Mod Dude
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Jan 30, 2018
#45
  • Jan 30, 2018
  • #45
Is your ignition switch in good shape?
 

Mustang5L5

That is…until I whipped out my Bissell
Mod Dude
Feb 18, 2001
43,237
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224
Massachusetts
Jan 30, 2018
#46
  • Jan 30, 2018
  • #46
Car does crank right?

I'm leaning to something in the dist here
 

jrichker

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Jan 30, 2018
#47
  • Jan 30, 2018
  • #47
How the TFI ignition works in 86-93 model Mustangs:

Revised 2 June 2017 to add canned air cooling test

Tools needed: DVM, noid light, safety pin.

Theory of operation:
The TFI ignition in 86-93 Mustangs has 4 main components: the ignition switch, the coil, the TFI module and the PIP sensor inside the distributor.

The ignition switch gets power from the two yellow wires that are supplied power by a fuse link located in the wiring harness that connects to the starter solenoid.

Diagram courtesy of Tmoss & Stang&2birds


I.) The coil is mounted on the driver’s side strut tower on most EFI Mustangs. It gets power from a red/green wire and a brown/pink wire from the ignition switch. That wire from the ignition switch feeds a 20 gauge blue fuse link that connects to the red/green wire. The fuse link protects the wiring and the ignition switch, since the fuse link for the two yellow power supply wires has a much higher current rating. Without the smaller fuse link protecting the smaller wiring used in the ignition circuit, a short there would cause the red/green wire to overheat and burn up.

II.) The TFI module is mounted on the side of the distributor and supplies the ground for the coil. Every automotive power supply circuit uses the ground as the return path to carry power back to the negative side of the battery. The TFI switches the tan/yellow wire coming from the coil to ground. It gets power from the red/green wire when the ignition switch is in the Run position. The red/lt blue wire supplies a signal to turn on more power (dwell time) when the engine is cranking. The increased dwell can cause excessive current draw if the red/blue wire remains energized when the ignition switch is in the Run position. The trigger signal comes from the PIP sensor when cranking and the computer when the engine is running. The SPOUT jumper plug enables computer controlled spark advance. When the SPOUT is removed, spark advance is locked at the setting determined by the mechanical position of the distributor.

III.) The PIP sensor is in the bottom of the distributor under the shutter wheel. It is a Hall effect magnetic sensor that senses a change in the magnetic field when one of the slots in the shutter wheel uncovers the sensor. Then it supplies a pulse that triggers the TFI module to provide a ground to the ignition coil. A bad PIP will often set code 14 in the computer and cause hot start problems. Replacing the PIP sensor requires removal of the distributor and pressing the gear off the distributor shaft to expose the sensor. For most people, a remanufactured distributor ($55-$75) is the solution, since they may not have access to a press.

IV.) Troubleshooting the ignition system – no spark or weak spark. All the tests are done with the ignition switch in the Run position unless specified otherwise. A safety pin may be used to probe the wiring connectors from the back side.
1.) Check for 12 volts at the yellow wires on the ignition switch. No 12 volts and the fuse link near the starter solenoid has open circuited.
2.) Check for 12 volts on the red/green and brown/pink wires coming out of the ignition switch. No 12 volts, replace the ignition switch.
3.) Check for 12 volts at the ignition coil. No 12 volts and the blue 20 gauge fuse link has open circuited.
4.) Check for 12 volts at the red/green wire on the TFI module. No 12 volts and you have wiring problems.
5.) Remove the small red/blue wire from the starter solenoid (looks like it is stuck on a screw). This is a safety measure to keep the engine from turning while you are making measurements. Have a helper turn the ignition switch to Start and look for 12 volts on the red/lt blue wire on the TFI module. No 12 volts and you will have starting problems, but push starting the car will work OK. No 12 volts, replace the ignition switch. Be sure to reconnect the red/blue wire to the starter when you finish.
6.) Check the red/blue wire to make sure that it has less than 8 volts when the ignition switch is in the Run position.
7.) A noid light available from any auto parts store, is one way to test the PIP pulse. The computer uses the PIP signal to trigger the fuel injectors. The noid light plugs into the fuel injector harness in place of any easily accessible injector. Plug it in and it will flash if the PIP is working. No flash from the noid light and the PIP is suspect. To confirm the PIP is being the source of the non flashing noid light, look for 12 volts on the red injector wiring. Good 12 volts and no flashing noid light means the PIP has failed.
8.) Remove the SPOUT plug from the harness and try to start the engine. If it starts, replace the PIP. This is a common no start condition when the engine is hot.
9.) The TFI module is a go/no go item when you have a no spark/weak spark condition on a cold engine. It either works or it doesn’t.
The TFI failure mode on a running car is usually a high speed miss on a warm engine. Many auto parts stores will test your TFI module for free. Bring along a hair dryer to get it hot while testing it and run several test cycles, since it often gets weak when it heats up.
Spraying the TFI module with “canned air” used to dust computer keyboards while the engine is hot and misfiring is one way to check the TFI. Turn the can upside down and spray away; this will cool the TFI of quickly. If it stops missing, the TFI is the likely suspect.

The coil is somewhat more difficult to pinpoint as a problem. A good coil will make a nice fat blue spark 3/8”-1/2” long. The problem is that one person’s perception of a fat blue spark looks like may not be accurate enough to spot a weak coil. The coil is cheap enough ($13-$16) that having a known good working spare might be a good idea.

diagram courtesy of Tmoss & Stang&2Birds






See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host) for help on 88-95 wiring http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/ Everyone should bookmark this site.

Ignition switch wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/IgnitionSwitchWiring.gif

Fuel, alternator, A/C and ignition wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif

Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 88-91 Mass Air Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif

Vacuum diagram 89-93 Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustangFoxFordVacuumDiagram.jpg

HVAC vacuum diagram
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/Mustang_AC_heat_vacuum_controls.gif

TFI module differences & pinout
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/TFI_5.0_comparison.gif
 

95BlueStallion

My assy trans to myself
15 Year Member
Feb 22, 2007
5,125
3,091
214
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Jan 30, 2018
#48
  • Jan 30, 2018
  • #48
Mustang5L5 said:
Those starter solenoids are fairly easy to test, but you need a digital multimeter.

Is the AM part an actual motorcraft unit?
Click to expand...

Has the same Motorcraft part number SW1951C in their description and is advertised as Ford OEM.
 

95BlueStallion

My assy trans to myself
15 Year Member
Feb 22, 2007
5,125
3,091
214
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Jan 30, 2018
#49
  • Jan 30, 2018
  • #49
Mustang5L5 said:
Car does crank right?

I'm leaning to something in the dist here
Click to expand...

Car does crank (serpentine belt rotates). It sounds very strange though. It sounds like only the starter is spinning. I thought my starter was failing to engage the flywheel initially. But then I could see the serp belt around the AC compressor rotating.
 

95BlueStallion

My assy trans to myself
15 Year Member
Feb 22, 2007
5,125
3,091
214
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Jan 30, 2018
#50
  • Jan 30, 2018
  • #50
jrichker said:
How the TFI ignition works in 86-93 model Mustangs:

Revised 2 June 2017 to add canned air cooling test

Tools needed: DVM, noid light, safety pin.

Theory of operation:
The TFI ignition in 86-93 Mustangs has 4 main components: the ignition switch, the coil, the TFI module and the PIP sensor inside the distributor.

The ignition switch gets power from the two yellow wires that are supplied power by a fuse link located in the wiring harness that connects to the starter solenoid.

Diagram courtesy of Tmoss & Stang&2birds


I.) The coil is mounted on the driver’s side strut tower on most EFI Mustangs. It gets power from a red/green wire and a brown/pink wire from the ignition switch. That wire from the ignition switch feeds a 20 gauge blue fuse link that connects to the red/green wire. The fuse link protects the wiring and the ignition switch, since the fuse link for the two yellow power supply wires has a much higher current rating. Without the smaller fuse link protecting the smaller wiring used in the ignition circuit, a short there would cause the red/green wire to overheat and burn up.

II.) The TFI module is mounted on the side of the distributor and supplies the ground for the coil. Every automotive power supply circuit uses the ground as the return path to carry power back to the negative side of the battery. The TFI switches the tan/yellow wire coming from the coil to ground. It gets power from the red/green wire when the ignition switch is in the Run position. The red/lt blue wire supplies a signal to turn on more power (dwell time) when the engine is cranking. The increased dwell can cause excessive current draw if the red/blue wire remains energized when the ignition switch is in the Run position. The trigger signal comes from the PIP sensor when cranking and the computer when the engine is running. The SPOUT jumper plug enables computer controlled spark advance. When the SPOUT is removed, spark advance is locked at the setting determined by the mechanical position of the distributor.

III.) The PIP sensor is in the bottom of the distributor under the shutter wheel. It is a Hall effect magnetic sensor that senses a change in the magnetic field when one of the slots in the shutter wheel uncovers the sensor. Then it supplies a pulse that triggers the TFI module to provide a ground to the ignition coil. A bad PIP will often set code 14 in the computer and cause hot start problems. Replacing the PIP sensor requires removal of the distributor and pressing the gear off the distributor shaft to expose the sensor. For most people, a remanufactured distributor ($55-$75) is the solution, since they may not have access to a press.

IV.) Troubleshooting the ignition system – no spark or weak spark. All the tests are done with the ignition switch in the Run position unless specified otherwise. A safety pin may be used to probe the wiring connectors from the back side.
1.) Check for 12 volts at the yellow wires on the ignition switch. No 12 volts and the fuse link near the starter solenoid has open circuited.
2.) Check for 12 volts on the red/green and brown/pink wires coming out of the ignition switch. No 12 volts, replace the ignition switch.
3.) Check for 12 volts at the ignition coil. No 12 volts and the blue 20 gauge fuse link has open circuited.
4.) Check for 12 volts at the red/green wire on the TFI module. No 12 volts and you have wiring problems.
5.) Remove the small red/blue wire from the starter solenoid (looks like it is stuck on a screw). This is a safety measure to keep the engine from turning while you are making measurements. Have a helper turn the ignition switch to Start and look for 12 volts on the red/lt blue wire on the TFI module. No 12 volts and you will have starting problems, but push starting the car will work OK. No 12 volts, replace the ignition switch. Be sure to reconnect the red/blue wire to the starter when you finish.
6.) Check the red/blue wire to make sure that it has less than 8 volts when the ignition switch is in the Run position.
7.) A noid light available from any auto parts store, is one way to test the PIP pulse. The computer uses the PIP signal to trigger the fuel injectors. The noid light plugs into the fuel injector harness in place of any easily accessible injector. Plug it in and it will flash if the PIP is working. No flash from the noid light and the PIP is suspect. To confirm the PIP is being the source of the non flashing noid light, look for 12 volts on the red injector wiring. Good 12 volts and no flashing noid light means the PIP has failed.
8.) Remove the SPOUT plug from the harness and try to start the engine. If it starts, replace the PIP. This is a common no start condition when the engine is hot.
9.) The TFI module is a go/no go item when you have a no spark/weak spark condition on a cold engine. It either works or it doesn’t.
The TFI failure mode on a running car is usually a high speed miss on a warm engine. Many auto parts stores will test your TFI module for free. Bring along a hair dryer to get it hot while testing it and run several test cycles, since it often gets weak when it heats up.
Spraying the TFI module with “canned air” used to dust computer keyboards while the engine is hot and misfiring is one way to check the TFI. Turn the can upside down and spray away; this will cool the TFI of quickly. If it stops missing, the TFI is the likely suspect.

The coil is somewhat more difficult to pinpoint as a problem. A good coil will make a nice fat blue spark 3/8”-1/2” long. The problem is that one person’s perception of a fat blue spark looks like may not be accurate enough to spot a weak coil. The coil is cheap enough ($13-$16) that having a known good working spare might be a good idea.

diagram courtesy of Tmoss & Stang&2Birds






See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host) for help on 88-95 wiring http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/ Everyone should bookmark this site.

Ignition switch wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/IgnitionSwitchWiring.gif

Fuel, alternator, A/C and ignition wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif

Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 88-91 Mass Air Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif

Vacuum diagram 89-93 Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustangFoxFordVacuumDiagram.jpg

HVAC vacuum diagram
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/Mustang_AC_heat_vacuum_controls.gif

TFI module differences & pinout
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/TFI_5.0_comparison.gif
Click to expand...

Thank you. Some of this I can do, some I do not have the right tools nor knowledge for but will have to aquire it.
 
Last edited: Jan 30, 2018

Mustang5L5

That is…until I whipped out my Bissell
Mod Dude
Feb 18, 2001
43,237
17,922
224
Massachusetts
Jan 30, 2018
#51
  • Jan 30, 2018
  • #51
I'm starting to lean more and more towards something in the distributor causing this. TFI or pip or something in the wiring
 

95BlueStallion

My assy trans to myself
15 Year Member
Feb 22, 2007
5,125
3,091
214
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Jan 30, 2018
#52
  • Jan 30, 2018
  • #52
Mustang5L5 said:
I'm starting to lean more and more towards something in the distributor causing this. TFI or pip or something in the wiring
Click to expand...

I'll have to get a noid light and test stuff. Hard to believe my old stock TFI and PIP, as well as both new Motorcraft pieces are faulty though. I guess stranger things have happened, but seems odd.
 

Mustang5L5

That is…until I whipped out my Bissell
Mod Dude
Feb 18, 2001
43,237
17,922
224
Massachusetts
Jan 30, 2018
#53
  • Jan 30, 2018
  • #53
That's why you just need to run through them all resting and troubleshooting
 

95BlueStallion

My assy trans to myself
15 Year Member
Feb 22, 2007
5,125
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214
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Jan 30, 2018
#54
  • Jan 30, 2018
  • #54
RaggedGT said:
Is your ignition switch in good shape?
Click to expand...

Only thing I did to test it was put a test light on one of the wires going into the coil with the ignition on. Dont remember which wire, but it was on the "cranks but no start" list. The light came on, so I moved on to the next step. I need to go back and get more specific with it with a volt meter using what JRichker posted above to rule it out.
 

General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair
20+ Year Stangneter
Aug 25, 2016
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Jan 30, 2018
#55
  • Jan 30, 2018
  • #55
I'm sure this is a moot point but is your starter spinning the engine over fast enought?
 

95BlueStallion

My assy trans to myself
15 Year Member
Feb 22, 2007
5,125
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214
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Jan 30, 2018
#56
  • Jan 30, 2018
  • #56
karthief said:
I'm sure this is a moot point but is your starter spinning the engine over fast enought?
Click to expand...



If only I could describe the sound better. It sounds as if the starter is spinning without engaging the flywheel. If I didnt see the serp belt rotating, I would still think that. As for the speed of rotation, hell if I know.
 

General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair
20+ Year Stangneter
Aug 25, 2016
27,892
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203
polk county florida
Jan 30, 2018
#57
  • Jan 30, 2018
  • #57
Is it the newer style gear drive starter?
Put one on my 89 gt and it sounds strange compaired to the old ford starter.
 

Mustang5L5

That is…until I whipped out my Bissell
Mod Dude
Feb 18, 2001
43,237
17,922
224
Massachusetts
Jan 30, 2018
#58
  • Jan 30, 2018
  • #58
Video?
 

General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair
20+ Year Stangneter
Aug 25, 2016
27,892
10,553
203
polk county florida
Jan 30, 2018
#59
  • Jan 30, 2018
  • #59
Mustang5L5 said:
Video?
Click to expand...
Really? Yea!
Oh, wait, the engine cranking, ok.
Sorry, wrong website.
 

hoopty5.0

mechanicus terribilis
15 Year Member
Dec 14, 2010
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SW Houston
Jan 31, 2018
#60
  • Jan 31, 2018
  • #60
The fact that it sounds different now has me wondering if he sheared the dowel pin off the cam or something crazy like that
 
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