Car is going on the DYNO tommorow! (1/3/06)

[billfisher]

ok....

headers you need.

this is going to be abridged. for once
i have to find the formulas again. i haven't done this in awhile.they were on a calculator i gave away maybe ten years ago.
you have long tubes. i am going to assume they are 1 5/8".i am going to throw out some numbers, they are representary not exact.(just a reference point for discussion). also for discussion we are going to pretend that 90 degree V8 with offset journal crank is really a flat crank.

fluids travel down a tube at a velocity relative to the diameter of the tube. the smaller the tube the faster a fixed volume of fluid released in a fixed amount of time will travel.

lets say 1 5/8" headers have a pulse that travels to the collector and has an associated sonic pulse that arrives at the next port exactly at 5000 rpm's and has a length of 47". the header is tuned to have maximum low pressure at the ports exactly at 5000 rpm's. it's efficiency degrades above or below that rpm at a exponential rate. at those rpm's where scavenging is small, flow rate of individual tubes yields power gains over log type manifold. that is an example of equal length header.

we all know tri-y's out torque equal length. how can we have both torque and HP? answer when i return from the toilet.

 

[billfisher]

lets talk about applications first.

drag racing: close ratio and gear = narrow powerband used for full race cars. headers tuned for narrow band

road course, lots of rpm band, some lugging. headers tuned for wide range.

circle track. very narrow powerband.

street cars. idle to max rpm's we are looking for torque and HP.

if you look at full race-no expense spared drag headers they are tuned for hp. nothing else. same for cirle track.

road racing and street need torque and hp.

what are the big dogs running road course? stepped headers. there is no way the average joe can afford the expense of custom fabbed and properly tuned steppers.

they stack low pressure at the port AND the collector.
i discussed how in 101.

now 331 if you say you want it all this is how you can have it all.

it will require you to buy a second header. unless you can fab tubes youself. what you need is a single step 1 5/8" to 1 3/4" header. the first step needs to be tuned for high rpm's. the exact length of the first step can vary. think of it like a 1 3/4" pure hp header that has slightly shortened secondard step primaries. they are shortened beacause the priamaries of smaller diameter (1 5/8") add length to the overall header. this overall length has to be right for high rpm HP.

both headers need to be as close as possible to the same routing of tubes. you will need to graft the larger header at the end of the smaller one. the 1 5/8" will be used for the first 15" or so(calculations need to be done)then the second header(1 3/4") attached to the first header. then the ends of the header needs to be cut so primary extensions and or collector varieties can be tried. the fact is, every engine is different and responds differently. slip on collectors have been used by racers for decades. use 1 3/4" x 3" collectors. the exhaust gasses still have available energy for scavanging. collector extensions provide the added power. i have used 18" extensions generically forever just because i knew they added power. the old rule was wherever the gasses cooled below 400 degrees cut then off. i drew on them with temperature stic (400*) and cut them. more after i visit the wife for a while.

 

[billfisher]

after they gasses lose their energy taper them to 2 1/2" and the rest of the exhaust. that may be unrealistic for you, but ask around good speed shops for someone that can make you steppers. they ain't cheap.

i have a different view on this kind of thing. usually nobody makes the stuff i need. i wish it is going to be that easy for me to make mine. there are no longtubes i can graft. i'm going to step them twice. nuff said. ask some experts for their advice on steppers.heddman makes some for the street, but they are too small for HP. 1 1/2" to 1 5/8". too small.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

Bill, you may want to contact Kooks for your needs. They're pricey, but they'll build you pretty much anything you want and at the best quality available. The custom made ones for my MN12 Mercury Cougar are a work of art.

 

[hotmustang331]

WOW, Bill...THANKS A BUNCH for that info! Thats a very good way to increase RWHP, when that new engine goes in im going to have to really get into the mix of that and (the tough part) cut the LTs and tie in the larger tubes afterwards and make it all fit lol. Its going to take ALOT of work, but i bet no other street N/A 2V guys have done that haha.
I know 400RWHP for a 2V is unheard of on pump gas, but I think I may have a shot at it with your help and all these different tricks. I have learned ALOT about headers/intake manifolds ect from you so far...your like a walking wealth of information . And you say you learned all this from racing beetles huh? Must have been one wicked fast bug is all I have to say!
Again, thanks for taking the time to type all this...this page is going in my favorites, dont want to loose it.


And thanks everyone for your replys!
And stangman, what more do you want? You have freegin 420RWHP LOL. BE HAPPY! And no im not buying you that forged motor...stop PMing me! J/K

 

[hotmustang331]

Nice numbers, but remember a M6 LS1 on a Dynojet should be making 310-320rwhp.

BTW - what does your car weigh? Using Google there seems to be quite a descrepancy for the 99-04 Mustangs in terms of weight.

Well thats NEW for one thing...but besiades that, most M6 LS1s (including C5 vettes) make 310RWHP...only a handfull made 320. They took an 00 SS M6, used, forgot miles. Made 300RWHP. (looked modded to me or something, had DRs out back and some other things didnt look right...but they said it was stock) The added a lid and a catback exhaust, and it made 319. They make good power for a few mods . Anyways, I have driven the auto ones (and M6s)...they just dont seem to use the power very well . well until you get going fast lol.

From what I can gather (stock GTs weigh 3350...M6 Fbodys weigh around 3450) mine weighs somehwere around 3280lbs. I really need to run into one though...stock autos just dont have a chance, need to race an M6.

 

[billfisher]

when you get ready to do the headers get ahold of me. i will find the formulas for exact step lengths. there is a hell of a lot of power to be had just by swapping collectors and collector extensions. slip on collectors and primary extensions are available from hooker, as well as 3" collector extensions.those 2 1/2" jobs they sell are worthless for real power. 3 1/2" is too big for 4.6. then once you get the headers maximised you can get a custom cam grind to work EXACTLY with the headers and intake combo. stepped headers have another useful side effect. anti reversion. i haven't said anything about the intake, because it is really unbeatable overall with 2v. i think it is a good compromise to tapered acceleration and avoiding too much volume. hard to get the air column started without a tuned intake similar to nascar. you need to keep torque anyway. it is the best stock 2v ford manifold ever. i love it. even my colt 65 couldn't compete. no low rpm torque. nascar intakes take advantage of the elastic properties of air to ram charge the opposing cylinder.


cam go with comp cams for custom. they have more experience with custom stuff. they have tried everything to include Jim Fuelings bump charging profiles.he claimed they worked. i talked to CC they laughed, but they tried it. he set the land speed record for oldsmobile quad4 turbo back in the 80's. he opened the exhaust vale a few degees and a few thousands at maximum cylinder pressure (during combustion)to send a pulse down the exhaust to create more scavanging. funny stuff.


as far as VW's. when you only have 1600cc's you do everything. forget nothing.

use the vaccum for your crankcase from both collectors.

 

[300bhp/ton]

Well thats NEW for one thing...but besiades that, most M6 LS1s (including C5 vettes) make 310RWHP...only a handfull made 320. They took an 00 SS M6, used, forgot miles. Made 300RWHP. (looked modded to me or something, had DRs out back and some other things didnt look right...but they said it was stock) The added a lid and a catback exhaust, and it made 319. They make good power for a few mods . Anyways, I have driven the auto ones (and M6s)...they just dont seem to use the power very well . well until you get going fast lol.

From what I can gather (stock GTs weigh 3350...M6 Fbodys weigh around 3450) mine weighs somehwere around 3280lbs. I really need to run into one though...stock autos just dont have a chance, need to race an M6.

Cool. What kind of ET do you expect to get with your new setup?

 

[ADRENLN]

hey man, congagulations on the good numbers! im a bit late on this thread, i forgot that you were going to get dynoed. i even missed the guesses.

its hard to hit the 300rwhp mark with regular mods na, but we are damn close. we have almost the exact same numbers but your 2 rwhp over me, great job.

you will surpass me all motor thats for sure, im going a different route. i guess im taking the easy route with a built engine and a novi 2000. in the end we will all be smashing the ls1.

 

[hotmustang331]

Im thinking upper 12s @ 107ish in this good weather. Im probbaly going to the track this next wensday, going to run DRs and pull the spare.

thanks adrenln! I know 2RWHP LOL, thats crazy...but it looks like the engines are really evenly matched. And didnt your LTs make your car go lean? Its funny that mine didnt do anything .

And Bill, just curious...what kindof a RWHP gain are we talking about with doing the stepped headers with extentions over the BBKs I have now?

 

[billfisher]

steppers sigle or quad can make 25 hp over and non step header.notice i say can. if you have a custom designed non-step header it can make exactly the same peak hp. but you will sacrifice torque up to the operating rpm of the header. if you have a six speed with close ratios(close than stock) and proper rear end gear ro match, it can keep it in it's optimum powerband. a narrow band. the reason for steppers is to keep all of your torque.


now with that being said... if you bbk generic header just happens to match your shift point and rpm drop and your combo exactly, a custom colletor will make a few percent more. addind collector extensions will add a few percent beyond that. you will notice the article stressed a proper collector length, diameter and extension to maximize. now i am sure the header companies will clain their header is best, but there is no 2 1/2" collector in a v8 that can equal a 3" merge collector. you have to hae extension the get the most out of remaining gas energy.

so to give you a number is impossible, but unless your bbk's have 3" merged collectors and say 24" extensions(it varies with each motor and remaining exhaust) you are throwing away power and torque. don't go our and buy hooker 1 3/4" header to make up for it, cause larger tubes lose low end torque. stepper lose none.they make it. you can be the peakiest dyno king and lose to a guy with more area under the curve with gearing to match.

for example my first set of hedman steppers claimed .25 sec better acceleration at various rpms. based on major gains in torque at each rpm point. now superchargeing is a different animal. as far as exhaust is concerned you will be increasing your displacement by 50%. you may be able to do a three stepper. 1 5/8" to 1 3/4" to 1 7/8" with 3 1/2" collector and extensions. my recommendation is to talk to hooker or heddman. find out if you will be able to support three steps. it requires a hell of a lot of gasses. big blocks, of big rpm 4v 5.0 or higher. does that answer it? i forgot the question.


you will accelerate WAY faster with stepper and custom collector/extensions than any factory. they are designed for generic powerband. slip on collector/primaries/collector extension are all most will need. track conditions, atmosphere changes internal fluid dynamics of a motor, so a large selection of tried and tested parts for your combo will work best. turbo charging is not as succeptable to atmosphere. i suggest a properly sized single turbo with necessary turbo timer ect. lower boos levels 6-9 lbs with intercooler will destroy a geared charger. it can be cheap. used rebuilt AFR t4 might be enough for you. simple headers with crossover in front of the motor will plumb it. look to last months MMFF for tubing routing. i realize superchargers are easy. but if you look there are a number of disapointed buyers. it takes torque to turn them. 65 or more lb-ft. KISS. that's the way. timing wheel(saleen) to time it. as far as reatarding timing with boost, you can lose the computer all together. there are so many ways to do it . 6lbs non intercooled draw through, blow through. cutsom ignition curve. boost retards, generic cylinder pressure assumptions for timing. run good gas. it goes on and on. buy the managment system from rousch as a piggy back. turbo can be cheap if you are creative. 1500 dollars for a t4 rebuilt or less on e-bay. it isn't going to take heroic boost. at some point i may do one just to show you guys. maybe a little later.

what was the question? i forget. if the admin would be kind enough to give me my nickname i would appreciate it. critical bill -cause my answers will put you in critical condition. just don't ask if you don't want the answer!!!!

 

[hotmustang331]

HAHA, no...i LOVE to learn. I was talking to a friend at work, and he has a VW bug 1650CCs, and I was telling him about you lol...told him to give you a PM if he had any questions about how to get some more power. THANKS very much for the info, I think im going to go for that when the time comes.

 

[billfisher]

are you going to a 5.0 stroker? with better heads? you really need to go custom everything. you will make it into a magazine. when the exhaust is maximized fool with the intake a little. you willing to put additives into your fuel. if you are i can hook you up with nitromethane. maybe 5% with a little retarded ignition. and cooler plugs. easy 10hp. t canbe pruchased. i will get the name. it is used for bracket cars that need a little to get dialed in.

 

[ADRENLN]

yea that was me that added the l/t and went really lean. i know its strange that yours is fine, but that is good. i guess slightly different setups make all the difference.

 

[300bhp/ton]

Im thinking upper 12s @ 107ish in this good weather. Im probbaly going to the track this next wensday, going to run DRs and pull the spare.

Cool I was thinking maybe 12.7 @ 108-9mph

 

[hotmustang331]

^thanks . I would be very happy if it trapped 109 haha, maybe if I went to sea lv track...but you never know.
Adrenln it does make me wonder what the heck happened with yours, I just cant figure it out . LTs should be the same...you trust your tuner right?


And Bill, im going with an 324CI aluminum BB/Stroker engine with 10.5-11 CR, some MPH STG 3 heads (246ish CFM), and some custom cams...probably to work with the stepped LTs like you suggested (thinking around .600 lift and 280ish durration). That will be the basis . I wonder if 11-1 would be too much on 93 pump gas .

 

[csledd]

congrats on your numbers man! where's all your torque though.. seems like you're missing some?

I remember just a few months ago when I had you beat now look at you lol. Just wait.. I'm getting Stage 2 this summer hopefully

 

[hotmustang331]

*runs to the phone and orders VT 324* But yea your going to pass me back up But thats OK, you desirve it..you put alot of work into the car.

The car has always been down on torque though Im not really sure why. There are some mild bolton guys with more torque, but maybe they run H pipes...could be the problem exhaust doesnt have much back pressure at all.

Same place going to do the tuning on the stg 2s? make sure you have them do what Tim did and make the inital crank up keep the RPMs up for a minute or so...Cammed 2Vs dont like 1KRPMs when you first start them, otherwise it misses and bucks and doesnt want to go haha.

 

[csledd]

*runs to the phone and orders VT 324* But yea your going to pass me back up But thats OK, you desirve it..you put alot of work into the car.

The car has always been down on torque though Im not really sure why. There are some mild bolton guys with more torque, but maybe they run H pipes...could be the problem exhaust doesnt have much back pressure at all.

Same place going to do the tuning on the stg 2s? make sure you have them do what Tim did and make the inital crank up keep the RPMs up for a minute or so...Cammed 2Vs dont like 1KRPMs when you first start them, otherwise it misses and bucks and doesnt want to go haha.

yup, same place going to do the tuning, I'm sure those guys will do that for the rpms, they're on top of their game.

btw my car made 306rwtq with just the full exhaust (x-pipe) and cai and tb and plenum lol.. I dunno where your torque is.. its weird.

btw im buying a sweet camera mount for my car so be expecting some sweet vids from the track this year

 

[hotmustang331]

It is also possable that the gears take it on the dyno, never dynoed with the stock gears. But thats ok im just glad the torque is finally over 300 lol. Where are you getting your mount? I may be interested in one...wish I had it for this WED night though