Do I Need Afpr

2000xp8 · Jul 17, 2014

Onefine88 said:
These AFPR's are "old school". Nowadays most people are using some type of software for tuning. My 88vert is tuned on an SCT chip. I used 60lb injectors this time around and using injectors that large require the use of software.
When I got done bolting the new HCI, blower, and supporting parts together I took it to the dyno for tuning. The first thing my tuner did was set a base FP he was happy with using my adjustable regulator. Then he did the rest of the tuning on the laptop. That may very well be the last time that AFPR will ever see action. "Who knows"
But,, there are alot of folks out there that don't want to spend the money for tuning software to tune their car.
Therefore, the "oldschool" method of adjusting the FPR and distributor is how its done to achieve a safe acceptable A/F ratio. Basic and primitive I know but it works.
I have a friend right now with a supercharged '94 Saleen S351R code. His car is currently making 561rwhp/565rwtq. He doesn't use software, just an oldschool AFPR and distributor. A/F is perfect.
I rode around in my supercharged '89SSC for more than 10 years with no tuning software whatsoever. Just basic A/F adjustments made on the dyno from the AFPR and distributor.
It ran flawless, made 450 at the tires, passed emissions, had cold A/C, and was blast to drive. There's something to be said for "old school"
Hey, its all fun guys! We all do things differently, that's all.

Some say I'm long winded. NOT MEEE! . LOL

Save your breath, these guys don't get it. They all think they know what is needed based on a bunch of crap they have read on the internet.

They haven't been around long enough to realize computer tuning didn't hit mainstream until after the foxbody was already out of production. That's 10 years of extremely fast and reliable cars without a dyno or chip.

Old school works as well (and in most times better) than new school because most guys that tune foxes with chips have no clue what they are doing with a fox, it's not a 96+ like they are all used to and they make the cars worse not better.

Sometimes less really is more.

Onefine88 · Jul 17, 2014

2000xp8 said:
Save your breath, these guys don't get it. They all think they know what is needed based on a bunch of crap they have read on the internet.
They haven't been around long enough to realize computer tuning didn't hit mainstream until after the foxbody was already out of production. That's 10 years of extremely fast and reliable cars without a dyno or chip.

Old school works as well (and in most times better) than new school because most guys that tune foxes with chips have no clue what they are doing with a fox, it's not a 96+ like they are all used to and they make the cars worse not better.

Sometimes less really is more.

I know. I was having my morning coffee and feeling energetic. LOL
I'm 51 and I was playing with these things back when the best you could do was remove the intake bell, add a K&N filter, underdrive pulleys, bump the timing, "fuel pressure", and have fun. We didn't have a clue as to what we were doing at the time but we had fun!

mikestang63 · Jul 17, 2014

Same here. Tuning a car has come to mean in the last few years you HAD to get a chip burned. For decades we didnt need chips to tune a car. With a vacuum gauge, timing light and fuel pressure gauge you could pretty much dial in a car.

My car was just at the shop and we ran a few dyno runs after swapping out the top end and some other parts. After playing with the fp and timing we called it a day. He flat out told me that I could get a chip done if I had driveability problems but it wouldnt gain any substantial hp over what was done. I've known Steve for over 20 years and that is why he's the only person other than me who touches my car.

deathb4dismount · Jul 17, 2014

If I remember correctly when I had my gears done last year, I asked about tuning once I had the top end done. Mike told me that it shouldn't need anything except timing and the correct fuel. He has been doing it for 20 years so I trust him.

Onefine88 · Jul 17, 2014

deathb4dismount said:
If I remember correctly when I had my gears done last year, I asked about tuning once I had the top end done. Mike told me that it shouldn't need anything except timing and the correct fuel. He has been doing it for 20 years so I trust him.

Yep, just a minor tweek to the AFPR and distributor to dial in the a/f and get your new parts working well together and your done.

madspeed · Jul 17, 2014

2000xp8 said:
... They haven't been around long enough to realize computer tuning didn't hit mainstream until after the foxbody was already out of production. That's 10 years of extremely fast and reliable cars without a dyno or chip....

Wrong on the first part , and just think how much faster those cars could've been in the hands of todays tuning capabilities!

2000xp8 · Jul 17, 2014

madspeed said:
Wrong on the first part , and just think how much faster those cars could've been in the hands of todays tuning capabilities!

What exactly does the "tune" accomplish on a car that already has a proper A/F ratio?

Please don't say fix driveability issues or idling, if you car doesn't idle or has driveability issues you screwed up somewhere, the wildest stuff i've seen over the years were just fine as street cars.

The tuning fixes something that just isn't broke. You like it as a hobby, that's cool. But it is miles from necessary and should never be used as a substitute for using the right parts or a repair method.

If people have cars with no issues with D1's, T trims and twin turbos that are fine without tuning, how is it that everyone here wants to tune their 265rwhp gt40 iron cars?

I've heard of people even crossing the 700rwhp mark without a tuner, have not seen it. But i have physically seen 651rwhp in person (procharged).

The money is plain old better spent elsewhere.

TOOLOW91 · Jul 17, 2014

While I agree the old school still works my tune was worth every penny I paid for it my car drove for those who followed I put 180 miles on it before the dyno but the driveability is better and the peace of mind watching the wide band and knowing it isn't lean is worth it IMO .

madspeed · Jul 17, 2014

Well, since they are computer controlled, the fuel tables, timing tables, maf curve, etc can all be tweaked way beyond the factory scaling that was programmed for maximum fuel economy and driveability with the factory installed parts.

Who here still has factory heads, intake, cam, maf, etc??

mikestang63 · Jul 17, 2014

On fox body mustangs- the computer controls little more than timing and fuel- the engine is not computer controlled. There is no crank or cam sensors, the valvetrain is not computer controlled. When you get a dyno tune or other chip burned, as it relates to hp and torque, you are simply messing with the timing, fuel curves and a/f ratios. Now, if you want to do other things like turn off CEL's or fix surging idle's, etc, then yes a tune or chip will help.

For supercharged applications, we still use BTM's and other devices to adjust timing under boost- it's just manual instead of by a tune.

Now if you are talking about later model cars where engines, transmissions are all computer controlled then yes, a tune will unlock hidden horsepower.

deathb4dismount · Jul 17, 2014

Man I really started something here. Keep it going. On another note my engine will not be finished tomorrow as expected. The top end is still exactly where I left it 7 weeks ago. The quality of the build better be exceptional, I am not happy right now

madspeed · Jul 17, 2014

Quality work trumps speadiness when it comes to engine biilding!

deathb4dismount · Jul 18, 2014

madspeed said:
Quality work trumps speadiness when it comes to engine biilding!

I know that. However, it's not like the guy has been working on it for the last 7 weeks, he has not worked on it at all. If you are going to set an expectation of when the work is going to be complete do not lie about it just to get the business. I knew the guy had 35 engines in the shop when I dropped it off (I saw about 20 of them). I thought this was a sign that the guy did quality work, however, if he had told me it would take 8+ weeks I may have looked elsewhere. I am not worried about the quality, when I left the shop he was building a DOHC motor for Tasca Ford, so I will try to to be patient.

madspeed · Jul 18, 2014

I understand, sometimes the good guys get in over their head. See the threads about Rick at RNH Performance

TOOLOW91 · Jul 18, 2014

madspeed said:
I understand, sometimes the good guys get in over their head. See the threads about Rick at RNH Performance

It's a shame I haven seen or heard from him on here and he did good work

2000xp8 · Jul 18, 2014

An engine needs to be started like 6 months in advance. At this point it's not much different than having your car painted. They got you by the balls unfortunately.

This is part of the reason (may not apply to you), that i tell people to build their engine BEFORE they take their current running one apart.

Also a reason i like ford racing crate engines.
Today you have nothing, in a week or less you can have a complete engine.

mikestang63 · Jul 18, 2014

2000xp8 said:
An engine needs to be started like 6 months in advance. At this point it's not much different than having your car painted. They got you by the balls unfortunately.

This is part of the reason (may not apply to you), that i tell people to build their engine BEFORE they take their current running one apart.

Also a reason i like ford racing crate engines.
Today you have nothing, in a week or less you can have a complete engine.

That's why Woody/Mark Oneal and Ed Curtis tell you in advance not to expect the engine/cam back for weeks or months. I send my money to Ed with the cam card specs and then normally in a few weeks the cam arrives. Some people watch those shows on TV where they build an engine in 1/2 hour and think that is how it's done in real life. Not a big fan of crate engines- they tend to use average parts and for the price you can build one with better parts. The exception is the Coyote motor which is too new.

2000xp8 · Jul 18, 2014

mikestang63 said:
That's why Woody/Mark Oneal and Ed Curtis tell you in advance not to expect the engine/cam back for weeks or months. I send my money to Ed with the cam card specs and then normally in a few weeks the cam arrives. Some people watch those shows on TV where they build an engine in 1/2 hour and think that is how it's done in real life. Not a big fan of crate engines- they tend to use average parts and for the price you can build one with better parts. The exception is the Coyote motor which is too new.

In most cases concerning stock blocks, mediocre parts are fine.
At this point i gotta know about a dozen people with the non boss x headed engine with vortechs that make 450-515rwhp. Never seen a failure.
Cheapest solution? No.
Quickest solution, might be.

Regardless the old adage of pick 2 applies.
1. fast
2. good
3. cheap

You can't have all three.

84Ttop · Jul 18, 2014

deathb4dismount said:
I know that. However, it's not like the guy has been working on it for the last 7 weeks, he has not worked on it at all. If you are going to set an expectation of when the work is going to be complete do not lie about it just to get the business. I knew the guy had 35 engines in the shop when I dropped it off (I saw about 20 of them). I thought this was a sign that the guy did quality work, however, if he had told me it would take 8+ weeks I may have looked elsewhere. I am not worried about the quality, when I left the shop he was building a DOHC motor for Tasca Ford, so I will try to to be patient.

If its any consolation my last engine was at the machine shop for 6 months. Now that I have a small issue that is not even on the engine builder I will have it back in less than a week. In the performance world people get bumped all over the place. For all I know, one of my guys big dollar customers blows up this weekend and mine gets pushed back a few days. I know that I've bumped a few people with my problem. It's always a juggle and its impossible to make every deadline. A good engine builder is always busy and always has a juggle going on. If it were 2 1/2 years he had your engine than I would agree you're getting screwed!

madspeed · Jul 18, 2014

TOOLOW91 said:
It's a shame I haven seen or heard from him on here and he did good work

I wish he would at least chime in with an update on his situation, Rick hasnt checked in for many months

Do I Need Afpr

2000xp8

Onefine88

Previously 89SSC18

mikestang63

deathb4dismount

Crap, didn’t realize my crotch was in that picture

Onefine88

Previously 89SSC18

madspeed

Colonel Mustard

2000xp8

TOOLOW91

If you're the village idiot what's that make me?

madspeed

Colonel Mustard

mikestang63

deathb4dismount

Crap, didn’t realize my crotch was in that picture

madspeed

Colonel Mustard

deathb4dismount

Crap, didn’t realize my crotch was in that picture

madspeed

Colonel Mustard

TOOLOW91

If you're the village idiot what's that make me?

2000xp8

mikestang63

2000xp8

84Ttop

They make new pistons every day, so why worry?

madspeed

Colonel Mustard

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