Engine Engine Swap - lots of upgrades, not running quite right

08GT500 · Mar 18, 2020

Hi,
OBKB, I’d looked at the pic’s a few times, I’d thought something looked unusual, I’d then realized it was that breather. So, just venting now, no more PCV- Roger that.
Clocking the MAF is merely cracking the MAF clamp (s) just loose enough to rotate it** Sometimes incoming airflow is turbulent, or doesn't strike the MAF’s sampling tube optimally, or the EEC may simply “prefer” the signal the airflow creates when repositioning the MAF in a certain “sweet” spot & thus may improve how well the motor runs.
It’s best applied where there’s lots of bends in the intake piping, but will still help a Conical filter that airflow likely flows through unevenly. Don’t forget to retighten the clamps.
** You’ll want to rotate your air cleaner independently in this instance, I’d still rotate the entire MAF on the TB intake Tube as well.
Hope that helps!
-John
P.S: Mark the spot parts were in relation to, so you can spin back to the same spots if you want to. Too many changes= stackup of issues.

79pace · Mar 18, 2020

I removed the tube from the breather yesterday. I will figure out an alternate method. If I ever get a stock air box in I will more than likely run a tube upstream of the MAF and Filter and into the lower portion of the box to pull air from the valve cover that way. Should not effect anything doing it that way.

The only way I can rotate the MAF is if I un bolt it from the bracket and install it in a way contradictory from what ProM told me to. I get the concept but I currently have it installed exactly how their instructions said to and I have the cone filter clocked how they said to as well with the seam facing the passenger side fender well.

08GT500 · Mar 18, 2020

Certainly don’t move anything then, I’d leave as-is & install new parts, your Pro-m flowsheet designating a fender well cool air intake, or a stock air box app?
-John

79pace · Mar 18, 2020

The sheet lists this as either for a Cone filter which I have on now or the stock air box which I plan to go to. It specifically says if I change to a CAI I will need to have it re programmed.

General karthief · Mar 18, 2020

Back to that valve cover breather. And this is my opinion on what I have learned dealing with efi systems. I may be wrong but I think not.
The in coming air is metered by the maf system, this means that the system is closed, the breather should not introduce outside air, your plan to run a hose to the air box is, in my opinion, not the optimal way either. Run the pcv valve the way it is intended to work and run a hose from the oil fill neck to the tb with a cap on the fill tube that seals so no outside air is sucked into the engine.
That being said I have to ask, does the cap have holes under it that are open to the outside of the fill tube or just inside the fill tube? If there are no holes on the outside of the cap (just one nipple for the hose to tb) then you are good.

90sickfox · Mar 19, 2020

The only breather I know that will work in this situation is the breather for a 94 dodge ram. It is baffled and sealed. Has a tube on it that allows it to be connected in the factory location with hose.

If the breather is the type that has a screen or vent holes it won't work properly. It will cause the same as a vacuum leak because the fresh air pulled into the intake tube will be after the MAF and unmetered. The gases that would normally flow back into the intake track have been measured already.

General karthief · Mar 19, 2020

^^^ what we said ^^^^
good to know about that brand d breather.

79pace · Mar 19, 2020

Right but it will still work fine if I have it vent into the filter area like we have done since the invention of the pcv. I am not going to vent it in after the mass air. As long as it vents in upsteam it will still draw crank case gasses out which is the objective.

08GT500 · Mar 20, 2020

Pace, in regards to the EEC measuring the added airflow by installing it prior to the MAF makes sense... Do you agree, however,, ventilating crankcase airflow with a mist of oil pulled across the MAF would eventually contaminate it, causing additional issues?
Running a filter in-line would need to be specific to oil, more of a trap, vacuum very strong for it to have a chance of helping....
Was it a carbureted app, it would work fine,, or An SD motor using a MAP sensor , anything not running an ultra-sensitive MAF sensor.
That being said, running a TrickFlow filler neck with the o-ringed cap installed in the properly sized rubber grommet (or equivalent) in your valve cover would be leak-free, only air-path path is from the engine opening directly to the OE line in your TB, just like stock.
https://lmr.com/item/TFS-51400800/87-93-Mustang-50L-58L-Trick-Flow-Billet-Oil-Filler-Tube

You could also make one, or have a shop make on for you, just a section of aluminum pipe few details, grommet, cap.
Just my .02.
Best!
-John

79pace · Mar 20, 2020

I agree but I can also put a filter on it. There are plenty on the market used in EFI cars with MAF sensors. Look at any ford Focus built in the 2000's and i think the tauruses may have been done the same way. They connect the crank case to a sponge type filter.

The issue with the filler neck is that these are a composite valve cover that has a 1" hole physically drilled them for the rubber grommet and not a standard hole meant to accept a cap. I will look into but I am trying to do the best with the parts I have.

08GT500 · Mar 21, 2020

79pace said:
I agree but I can also put a filter on it. There are plenty on the market used in EFI cars with MAF sensors. Look at any ford Focus built in the 2000's and i think the tauruses may have been done the same way. They connect the crank case to a sponge type filter.

The issue with the filler neck is that these are a composite valve cover that has a 1" hole physically drilled them for the rubber grommet and not a standard hole meant to accept a cap. I will look into but I am trying to do the best with the parts I have.

Hi,
I agree with the concept, TrickFlow valvecovers also come without a vent, need to install a hole, and a grommet retains & seals it, like yours. I use a hydraulic punch driver with 1/2-3”+ graduated M/F dies (Frequently use; electrical trade) you drill a 3/8” pilot- tool does the rest). It’ll open up a hole 1/8” larger if need be.
H.Depot would likely punch one free, if brought the pre drilled or cover with hole you wish to enlarge, maybe a friend that’s an electrician would have a set, electrical contractor
Should you decide on a plug in closed PCV system style “breather” yet not vented (and would fit. Same P/N in Ford racing catalog,
Dimensions & views on page #120...

https://shnack.com/docs/2006-pp.pdf

AM is one of the very few places that stock them..20 bucks..

Ford Performance Mustang Black Breather Cap w/ Ford Racing Logo - Closed Crankcase Design M-6766-FRVBK (79-93 289, 302, 351W)

FREE SHIPPING! Add a Custom Touch. With the Ford Performance Black Breather Cap, you can cap off your vehicle’s valve cover oil fill holes with a classic and cu

www.americanmuscle.com

Think the air box vacuum will provide adequate vacuum to pull the cover’s gases?
Best!
-John

79pace · Mar 21, 2020

I am going to see what I can do on this. My other problem is how close my rockers are to the the top of the cover. If I put my current breather in too far right now it makes contact with them so anything I have to back nut or push all the way into the cover to seal is not going to work out. I am probably going to the pick a part today. I may look around and see if there is something I can use on another vehicle.

Also went and drove it yesterday. I did not go very far. It was not the happiest car to drive. It popped and spit a few times. I still think that TPS is crap. I will see if I can find one at the salvage to test and if it works better I will buy a new one. Dont want to buy a new one if its not the issue. It definitely fries the tires though even at part throttle. I still need to get the fuel pump in though also. I dont think the current one can keep up with higher rpm fuel needs.

08GT500 · Mar 21, 2020

Hi
You’re running a TrickFlow upper & lower, too-correct? The upper & lower has room to run tall valve covers without an intake spacer liKe Holleys Systemax, etc. Rockers aren’t tapping the covers when oil pressure makes them solid, right?
You could run cover spacers, they're 80$-Pricey as much as taller valve covers but would allow you to run your stock covers & PCV system (if you have them).
TrickFlow’s covers, have ample space for Valvetrain, push in breather I’d listed earlier.
Good idea to pull a TPS off an 86’-93 F-150, T’bird, etc ’(94’-95’ also works, slight mod’s). If you have access to a parts vehicle, gab a TPS, IAC, Dizzy if the prices are right.
Good luck
John

79pace · Mar 21, 2020

I am running the Trick Flow stuff and the composite valve covers are taller than stock but still pretty close to those rocker arms. when I take that breather out there is not a lot of extra space above the rockers but they definitely are not hitting. Didnt find anything good at the salvage but still looking into how I can run it with the stock setup still. Dont want to seal off the valve cover but I could put a cap on it and then just plumb a fitting in somewhere for the pcv system.

I got it to idle nice and lower today, sounded good but when I took it out to drive it I was having problems with the rpms hanging or climbing. It wanted to hover high and the more I drove it the higher it was getting. Kind of odd. And the car felt flat. Didnt seem to have the power I expected so I suspect I still have some tuning to do. I also have not gotten the fuel pump in it yet. Could just be running out of fuel at higher rpm too. Dont need any lean problems.

79pace · Mar 21, 2020

Oh and I did pull a TPS off a F150 and have it installed but i am still having issue getting voltage reading from it. Ok, Someone help me with that. I put a probe in the green wire and had the positive some of my volt meter on it. The negative wire on the volt meter I just put on a grouned point. Not getting any voltage in the KOEO state when I check it or move it. I am starting to think i am doing something wrong.

General karthief · Mar 22, 2020

You ground it to a wire on the tps, can't remember which one, look at jrichker's surging idle checklist, it shows you how.

79pace · Mar 22, 2020

Its the black wire. Typically a ground is a ground. I tried using one of the screws on the tps and other true grounds. I was getting voltage. I will try using the wire. Just didnt want to poke into another wire if I did not need to.

jrichker · Mar 22, 2020

The TPS uses a dedicated ground that goes back to the computer,. This is because the there is a voltage drop across the engine ground and the battery negative ground. It may only be a few tenths of a volt, but that is all that is needed to upset the small voltage that comes from the TPS sensor The voltage drop on the engine ground increases as the electrical load (lights, horn, windows, etc, increases The TPS dedicated signal ground carries so little current that there is no measurable voltage drop on it.

TPS Troubleshooting and testing

Revised 29-Jun-2018 to add increasing idle speed after engine start.

The TPS signal ground is not the same as the engine block or car body ground. Do not use the engine block or car body as a ground when checking the signal ground wiring or the TPS voltage!!! You will get incorrect readings that will vary with the amount of electrical load on the electrical system.

Setting the TPS: you'll need a good Digital Voltmeter (DVM) to do the job. Set the TPS voltage at .5- 1.1 range. Because of the variables involved with the tolerances of both computer and DVM, I would shoot for somewhere between .6 and 1.0 volts. Unless you have a Fluke or other high grade DVM, the second digit past the decimal point on cheap DVM’s is probably fantasy. There is no advantage to setting it to .99; that is a BOZO Internet myth, complete with red nose and big floppy shoes.

Since the computer zeros out the TPS voltage every time it powers up, playing with the settings isn't an effective aid to performance or drivability. The main purpose of checking the TPS is to make sure it isn't way out of range and causing problems.

Wire colors & functions:
Orange/white = 5 volt VREF from the computer
Dark Green/lt green = TPS output to computer
Black/white = Signal ground from computer

TPS troubleshooting steps:
1.) Use the Orange/white & Black white wires to verify the TPS has the correct 5 volts source from the computer.
2.) Use the Dark Green/lt green & Black/white wires to set the TPS base voltage. Try this... All you need is less than 1.0 volt at idle and more than 4.25 at Wide Open Throttle (WOT). You'll need a voltmeter with a 1 or 3 volt low scale to do the job.

The Orange/White wire is the VREF 5 volts from the computer. You use the Dark Green/Lt green wire (TPS signal) and the Black/White wire (TPS ground) to set the TPS. Use a pair of safety pins to probe the TPS connector from the rear of the connector. You may find it a little difficult to make a good connection, but keep trying. Put the safety pins in the Dark Green/Lt green wire and Black/White wire. Make sure the ignition switch is in the Run position but the engine isn't running. Set the voltmeter on the 2 volt range if it doesn’t auto range.

Here’s a TPS tip I got from NoGo50

When you installed the sensor make sure you place it on the peg right and then tighten it down properly. Loosen the back screw a tiny bit so the sensor can pivot and loosen the front screw enough so you can move it just a little in very small increments. I wouldn’t try to adjust it using marks.

(copied from MustangMax, Glendale AZ)

A.) Always adjust the TPS and Idle with the engine at operating temp. Dive it around for a bit if you can and get it nice and warm.

B.) When you probe the leads of the TPS, do not use an engine ground, put the ground probe into the lead of the TPS. You should be connecting both meter probes to the TPS and not one to the TPS and the other to ground.

C.) Always reset the computer whenever you adjust the TPS or clean/change any sensors. I just pull the battery lead for 10 minutes.

D.) The key is to adjust the TPS voltage and reset the computer whenever the idle screw is changed.

TPS voltage should be less than 1.1 volt at closed throttle and 4.25 volts or more at WOT

The TPS is a variable resistor, must like the volume control knob on a cheap radio. We have all heard them crackle and pop when the volume is adjusted. The TPS sensor has the same problem: wear on the resistor element makes places that create electrical noise. This electrical noise confuses the computer, because it expects to see a smooth increase or decrease as the throttle is opened or closed.

TPS testing: most of the time a failed TPS will set code 23 or 63, but not always. Use either an analog meter or a DVM with an analog bar graph and connect the leads as instructed above. Turn the ignition switch to the Run position, but do not start the engine. Note the voltage with the throttle closed. Slowly open the throttle and watch the voltage increase smoothly, slowly close the throttle and watch the voltage decrease smoothly. If the voltage jumps around and isn’t smooth, the TPS has some worn places in the resistor element. When the throttle is closed, make sure that the voltage is the same as what it was when you started. If it varies more than 10%, the TPS is suspect of being worn in the idle range of its travel.

TPS will not go below 1 volt

Note: Make all resistance checks with the ignition switch in the OFF position. Failure to do so will result in incorrect results and may possibly damage the meter.

Engine mounted sensor circuit: Check the resistance between the black/white wire on the TPS and battery ground. It should be less than 1 ohm. Higher resistance than 1 ohm indicates a problem with the 10 pin connector, computer or the splice inside the main harness where the wire from the 10 pin connectors joins the rest of the black/white wire.

See the graphic for the location of the 10 pin connectors:
Diagram courtesy of Tmoss & Stang&2birds

See the graphic for the 10 pin connector circuit layout.

Unplug the white 10 pin connector to do some resistance testing. It is good time to clean the connector pins and examine the connector for corrosion, broken wire or other damage. See http://www.themustangstop.com/tech-articles/cleaning-10-pin-connectors-mustang for help in this department.

If the resistance on the TPS Black/White wire and pin 1 of the white engine fuel injector harness 10 pin connector is more than 1.0 ohm, you have bad connection or broken wiring. Repeat the test using the pin 1 of the white body side 10 pin connector and battery ground. You should have less that 1 ohm. More than that is a damaged signal ground inside the computer or bad connections or wiring.[/b]

Idle speed increases after the engine has started and been driven:
When you start the car, the computer reads the TPS output voltage and uses that as a starting baseline or minimum TPS voltage for the TPS sensor.

As the engine warms up, the TPS voltage can slowly creep up past whatever voltage it saw when the engine first started. That causes the idle RPM to increase.

When you shut the ignition off and then restart the engine, the computer reads the voltage and sets whatever voltage it sees as the minimum TPS voltage for the TPS sensor, even if that voltage is more than 1.1 volt.

The first place to look is for a bad TPS signal ground, broken signal ground wire, or bad connection in the TPS wiring. The TPS connector plug and the 10 pin connector are the two most likely culprits.

The other thing to consider is a bad TPS sensor. Again, dumping the computer codes is a must do item on your troubleshooting checklist. See http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/threads/how-to-pull-codes-from-eec4.889006/ or "Surging Idle Checklist

08GT500 · Mar 23, 2020

Hi, The rear write up above should get you squared away with the TPS & more....
Great to hear the idle has come down, what finally allowed you to drop from 1,000+ to a. more normal range ..? Curious..
Repairing the issues you know of (fuel pump, don’t want it leaning out, as you’d mentioned..clean, close female pins slightly, grease) the salt & pepper shakers (thought you ) , check your grounds,
replacement Alternator output is functioning correctly ,.maybe load test your battery. EGR is connected, not installed (EEC hooked to vacuum or the into vacuum switch triggered by the EEC- no vacuum at idle), clean, tighten, line connections, use your EEC to go into diagnostics mode and run a cylinder balance test, reconnect the EGR so it can perform an EGR self test Vacuum remains at /$$
May clear up a lot. Timing’s still at 10 degrees. You were running the stock MAF before, as I recall , you swapped back to the Pro-M because it Runs better now. 7..
Lto hear you drove it, like you mentioned, that fuel pump is likely not helping it under a load. Pressures there, but not volume without I behind it.
TrickFlow heads have an additional 0.350 taller valvecover stock & most aftermarket .Realize you’re running ported E-7’s. But gives you more space to upper intake if you choose to run spacers, taller covers, etc.
From your pic’s, appears the hole is dead between cylinders 1 & 2’s rockers (where it should be). It all covers do this..
This 20$ closed crankcase push in vent @ AM would work.for you.

Ford Performance Mustang Black Breather Cap w/ Ford Racing Logo - Closed Crankcase Design M-6766-FRVBK (79-93 289, 302, 351W)

FREE SHIPPING! Add a Custom Touch. With the Ford Performance Black Breather Cap, you can cap off your vehicle’s valve cover oil fill holes with a classic and cu

www.americanmuscle.com

Best of luck!
John

79pace · Mar 23, 2020

Have not had time to mess with it so far this week. I did start it today and the idle while cold was all over the place. Did not want to stay idling till it got a little heat in the cylinders but I still need to get everything set now that is closer to wher eit should be. I am hoping to have it back in the garage where it goes. We got our engine swapped 2000 running today so if we can sort out the hudraboost I can get it out of the garage and get mine back in.

Engine Engine Swap - lots of upgrades, not running quite right

08GT500

79pace

something stupid will fall out of my mouth

08GT500

79pace

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General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair

90sickfox

Wasn't a pretty sight...and I've got big hands

General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair

79pace

something stupid will fall out of my mouth

08GT500

79pace

something stupid will fall out of my mouth

08GT500

Ford Performance Mustang Black Breather Cap w/ Ford Racing Logo - Closed Crankcase Design M-6766-FRVBK (79-93 289, 302, 351W)

79pace

something stupid will fall out of my mouth

08GT500

79pace

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79pace

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General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair

79pace

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08GT500

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