Have I got two faults

Reckless_b

Member
Nov 1, 2019
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South Yorkshire U.K.
Hello from across the pond, just like to say before I start what a great informative forum this is so I’m sure someone on here will be able to make sense of this.
Ok, so at the start of last week I was going to pull the car out of the garage to give it a good was before it gets a severe polishing for over winter, the car started and drove about a foot before it cut out and refused to start, the theft light was flashing so I thought it’s down to the pats, a bit of research followed and I tried everyone of the reset methods I’d found.
All these proved unsuccessful, so more research, I’d noticed that the odometer was just a series of dashes, also the theft light flashed a code, 1,6.
More research, the prospect of a faulty ccrm now began to appear, luckily I’d found this forum and the information was interesting. I took the plug off the ccrm and tested for voltage and grounds etc, everything was as it should be except on wire 12 there was no voltage, all the fuses checked out ok. I rigged up a jumper wire and powered up wire 12, the car started and the odometer was displaying numbers.
Today I’ve put a permanent supply to wire 12 through a relay the switching supply coming from fuse 18 (I think) testing step by step I had switching at the relay, I had 12v through the relay, but, and this is were I think theres a second separate fault. The lack of power to the ccrm via wire 12 and the odometer display, I thought these were all lumped together as the same fault.
The car starts and runs fine, but is there a shock waiting to pounce.
Thanks in advance
Bill
 
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wmburns

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Aug 14, 2009
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Note, when you inject +12 volt power to CCRM pin #12 it will also BACK FEED the same circuit back towards fuse F2.2. Thus powering up everything on the circuit.

The same splice feeds:
  • fuse F2.2
  • fuse F2.8
  • engine ignition COP power.
Soooooooooooooooooo If there's key on power in the engine ignition AND fuse F2.8 but NOT in fuse F2.2 there has to be a circuit break between the splice and the input side of fuse F2.2. In my experience splices rarely go back (but it can happen). IMO the most likely location for the problem is right inside the fuse box itself.

If this were my car I would remove the CJB and inspect the back side for evidence of:
  • Heat damage
  • water damage
  • rodent activity

F1=BJB=Battery Junction box located engine bay.
F2=CJB=Central Junction Box located driver's kick panel.

I would trouble shoot this be using a "add a circuit" or "add a fuse" in place of fuse F2.2. Place a test light on the pig tail and put the test light someplace where it can be see while performing a "wiggle" test on the wiring harness. If this makes the test light come on, this will tell you where the fault might be.
 

Reckless_b

Member
Nov 1, 2019
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South Yorkshire U.K.
Thanks for the advice so far, as I posted earlier I have power to f2.2, f2.8 in fact everyone I test I get power, but the juice needed to put on a test lamp isn’t as much as is needed to run the car.Today I’ve took a backwards step as now I’ve lost the spark, I can hear the fuel pump primp when I switch on and the odometer stays as numbers.How would you remove the cjb? I’ve seen it’s got the clips for splitting it but I wouldn’t want to split it without knowing whether a 1000 bits and all the fuses were going to fall out. First thing though I’ll stick the test lamp on all the fuses to try and find reasons for lost spark.
Bill
 

Reckless_b

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Nov 1, 2019
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When I’ve put the jumper onto the wire that feeds pin 12 on the ccrm I’ve cut the wire so nothing can backfeed to the cjb, didn’t want 12v going to ground if wire was damaged
Bill
 

wmburns

SN Certified Technician
Aug 14, 2009
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CCRM pin #12 is the pilot duty "pull up" for the fuel pump relay. I could easily see a case where someone puts a home made hidden DIY anti-theft switch to break the circuit.

If you have lost ignition it would be helpful to know if power has been lost or PCM control has been lost. Do you have key on +12 volts at each of the COP red wires? What about the PCM/Cluster? Does the mileage still display and PATS "prove out"? If so, then likely the PCM is alive and being powered.

Also, what about key on +12 volts at each fuel injector?

What about key on power at fuse F2.34?

My Ford wiring diagrams also indicates the F2.2 circuit passes through connector C213 which is located on the right hand side near the PCM. I could see a problem in that connector CAUSE your symptom. Have you performed a visual inspection of all the connectors around the PCM in the right hand kick panel area? Be on the look out for any wiring or connector damage.

C213 Behind I/P, at RH cowl​
The fact that you are mentioning "not enough juice" implies to me that there is a weak connection somewhere in the circuit that is causing excessive voltage drop. Here's some more information regarding voltage drop testing. The test light is a better circuit tester because it does "load" the circuit.

Howto perform charging system voltage drop test
 
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Reckless_b

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Nov 1, 2019
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Thanks for the reply, I’ll try to answer or confirm as much as I can for now, I’ll answer the rest if I can tomorrow morning.
I’ve still got power to ccrm wire 12 through the jumper feed,
The mileage is still showing on the odometer and the theft light goes out and doesn’t flash any fault codes
You’ll have to help me with the COP wires, over in the U.K. I haven’t heard that, probably know it as something different
Key on power at f2.2 and f2.34
I haven’t tested for power at the injectors yet, and I’ve not removed the panels to gain access to the pcm yet.
The battery has been run down with all the cranking but it’s on charge and will be good to go in the morning
I’ve mentioned “not enough juice” because on some of my kit cars and other classics I’ve had those type of issues with wires that will show a circuit at test but can’t handle it when there’s a load, it seemed like that with the supply to the ccrm, I’d be really peeved if all these issues were just the result of a weak battery, but in another way quite happy if a new battery resolved the problems.
Bill
 

wmburns

SN Certified Technician
Aug 14, 2009
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This post does not state the model year and engine. This leaves me to guess and assume.

The V6 ignition circuit is powered directly from the ignition switch pilot duty circuit from fuse F2.34. Yes the same circuit that "pulls up" the CCRM. The coil pack power is via the RD/LG wire.

The power source of CCRM pin #12 is still from fuse F2.2. So everything I have said about how the power distribution from fuse F2.34, F2.2, and F2.8 still holds true.
 

Reckless_b

Member
Nov 1, 2019
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Sorry, I thought I’d posted details of the car, must have been on my introduction post,
It’s a 1999 35th anniversary 3.8 v6 that has had a bit of a world tour as it’s been imported to the U.K. via Japan, only showing 32000km so only 20000miles it’s in really nice condition and until last week started and ran perfectly.
Many thanks for taking the time to explain and answer my questions your help has been greatly appreciated, I hope the problem can soon be resolved
Bill
 

Reckless_b

Member
Nov 1, 2019
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South Yorkshire U.K.
Ok, this morning I’ve been back in the garage, connected up a fully charged battery and cranked over the engine. The fuel pump primed but there’s still no spark, there’s power on the red wires to the coils, all the fuses test out ok with the test lamp lighting.
It’s as though I’ve gone back a couple of days, when I put in the key I get the usual chiming, the theft light goes out and the odometer displays numbers, after cranking the theft light flashes rapidly and the odometer looses its numbers, I’ve looked at the back of the cjb and also had the kick panel off to look at the pcm/ ecu all the wiring looks as good as new, in both cases, when the theft light gets into code mode it flashes 1-6 again but clears after the ignition has been switched off as when switching back on the theft light acts normal.
Back into the garage after lunch.
Bill
 

Reckless_b

Member
Nov 1, 2019
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South Yorkshire U.K.
Update from the garage,
I have lost power now to fuses f2.2 and f2.8
There is still power at f2.34 f2.28 and f2.18
So am I looking at the cjb?
The car is looking a little sad now, wheel off, arch cover pulled down, kick panel off knee panels and steel work off cjb unfastened
 

wmburns

SN Certified Technician
Aug 14, 2009
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Double check the BJB=F1 PCM maxi fuse.
Double check the BJB=F1 ignition fuse (x2)

IF any of the BJB fuses are blown, STOP and find out why as this will affect the results down stream.

NOTE: It should be expected to not have power in F2.2 and F2.8 when there's no power in F2.34. Normally if there's no power key on power in fuse F2.34 and all of the BJB fuses are good, THEN the problem is a bad ignition switch.

NOTE2: replacing the ignition switch is a DIY'er job. It does NOT require PATS reprogramming or re-keying. The ignition switch is not the same part as the key lock cylinder.

Don't be "that guy" who replaced a bunch of parts only to find a blown fuse that caused the later symptoms. Test and verify!

AGAIN.
F1=BJB=battery junction box, engine bay
F2=CJB=Central Junction Box, left hand kick panel.
 
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Reckless_b

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Nov 1, 2019
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I’ve double checked all the fuses in the BJB, all were ok,
There is key on power to f2.34 its f2.2 and f2.8 that have lost power, although after twisting and turning the fuse board power did return, but to make certain of the supply it is being back fed from the jumper wire at the ccrm plug on wire 12, the odometer and theft light are acting normal but there is still no spark at the spark plugs.
 

Reckless_b

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Nov 1, 2019
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South Yorkshire U.K.
As a bit of an after thought, don’t know if this would point to the ignition switch, but when I’ve plugged in the ODB2 reader it only loads so far with the ignition in run position, I switch back to acc to get it reading further, same when I set the reader to display codes I have to swap between run and acc, doesn’t bring up any fault codes though.
Bill
 

wmburns

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Sooooooooo you don't think it's odd that the position of the ignition switch affects how the ODB2 scanner works? The PCM is not supposed to be powered in the ACC position. If asking for an educated guess, there are multiple gangs within the ignition switch. I'm thinking that one of the gangs is not being powered in the run position.

Is the key in run position power in fuse F2.20, F2.26, F2.32? These three fuses should have power in run and ACC.

If this were my car I would consider replacing the ignition switch. Orrrrrrrr perform a better inspection for water or rodent damage.
 

Reckless_b

Member
Nov 1, 2019
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Oh I think it’s very odd how the OBD2 scanner is working, I know it appears to be a usual occurrence that when there’s a communication fault the odb2 will not load, when my comm fault is supposed to be clear the scanner doesn’t load up with the key in run, by switching back to acc the scanner steps forward, switching back to run and the list of options comes up, I select “read” but nothing happens until I switch to acc again, as I said, very odd.
I’ll recheck though.
Do you by any chance have a good wiring diagram I could access, the diagrams in the Haynes manual leaves much to be desired.
Bill
 

wmburns

SN Certified Technician
Aug 14, 2009
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Do you by any chance have a good wiring diagram I could access, the diagrams in the Haynes manual leaves much to be desired.
I'm a big believer in Sun Tzu "know your enemy". As such I have an AllDataDIY.com subscription for each of the cars that are in my orbit. The information contained inside a factory service manual is worth it's weight in gold. This goes double when trying to trouble shoot a complex wiring fault. I'm sure that IF you were looking at the Ford Factory diagrams like I am, much of what I'm trying to tell you would make a TON more sense.

Oh I think it’s very odd how the OBD2 scanner is working, I know it appears to be a usual occurrence that when there’s a communication fault the odb2 will not load, when my comm fault is supposed to be clear the scanner doesn’t load up with the key in run, by switching back to acc the scanner steps forward, switching back to run and the list of options comes up, I select “read” but nothing happens until I switch to acc again, as I said, very odd.
I’ll recheck though.
My theory is that the ODB2 scanner is trying to contact "other" modules such as ABS, Cluster, GEM that should be powered in run but are not. Bottom line is that it's all guessing until the full ignition switch trouble shooting guide from the Ford service manual is followed.
 

Reckless_b

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Nov 1, 2019
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I’ve tested the ignition as per instructions in Haynes manual and get good results across all contacts, I’ve then removed the ccrm plug (again) tested all fused permanent supplies, all present then the two switched 12v supplies, also present, checked all the ground connections and found one connection not to ground so linked this to ground connection adjacent to it, numbers 15 and 16 in the ccrm plug, the output from pin 24 checked and proved.
I’ll google the “AllDataDiy.com” , thanks for the suggestion I’ve never heard that mentioned before
Bill
 

wmburns

SN Certified Technician
Aug 14, 2009
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If you have confirmed key on power at CCRM pin #24 (RD) but NO POWER at fuse F2.2 and F2.8, THEN there MUST be a harness wiring fault between the CCRM and the CJB.

Or your test results are faulty.

IMO the most logical location is either:
  • Right at the CCRM connector itself
  • splice S169
  • connector C213