Forced Induction New Engine And Turbo - First Start Questions

[wiseguyk]

Hey guys, I've been working the last month on installing a fresh Ford Racing 306 and On3 70mm turbo kit (among other things like painting the engine bay and wire tucking haha) and am getting close to having everything buttoned up. I've tried searching the forums but having no luck finding any specific info on the correct way to go about starting the engine up for the first time for my scenario. It's a 91 with the stock ECU so I know it'll be pretty unhappy considering the radically different setup now vs stock.

What I'm most worried about is if I need to trailer the car to a tuner before even attempting to start it, or if it would be safe to start in the shop once we get it all put back together. The fuel system is upgraded to 320lph fuel pump and 60lb injectors (and slot style MAF tuned for 60lbs), so would it be safe to run it without being tuned first or would it be too rich and run like crap?

This is my first engine swap so I've been reading a lot about the first startup procedure for a fresh engine with a roller cam, oil changes, break in, etc, but I'm looking for guidance on whether I can do this with the radically different fuel system and turbo or if I should really trailer it to the tuner for the first start up. If that's the case, then I'm guessing I'll need an initial "safe" tune so that I can break in the engine and transmission, and then a "final" tune once it's broken in?

Thanks as always for your help, you guys have saved my butt many times and I really appreciate it!

 

[FoxMustangLvr]

Double check all your work before starting up. Prime the oil system, fresh battery, no forgotten tools in the engine bay, fresh 91 (or 93) octane, etc. Turn key to the ON position and listen for the fuel pump to prime, get out and check for leaks. At this point the car should be OK to be fired up and let idle. I'd stay out of boost. A lot of people will drive their cars to the tuner. At least this way if you have any small issues (self inflicted) you can get them sorted out at home instead of paying someone else to do it for you. At any moment you feel like something is wrong then turn it off.

I have a stock 5.0 and I supercharged it a year ago over last winter. I was nervous AF on my first start up! With lots of new fuel parts, PiMP ECU, and the blower I was afraid something would go wrong (like being too lean or rich). What do you know, car started up and idled very well the first time! Tuning it was a lot of fun too.

One more thing. If you have free towing coverage then you could use it to get your Mustang towed to the performance shop. I've done this before but I don't tell the insurance company that I've modified the car and getting it towed in order to get it tuned.

 

[wiseguyk]

Double check all your work before starting up. Prime the oil system, fresh battery, no forgotten tools in the engine bay, fresh 91 (or 93) octane, etc. Turn key to the ON position and listen for the fuel pump to prime, get out and check for leaks. At this point the car should be OK to be fired up and let idle. I'd stay out of boost. A lot of people will drive their cars to the tuner. At least this way if you have any small issues (self inflicted) you can get them sorted out at home instead of paying someone else to do it for you. At any moment you feel like something is wrong then turn it off.

I have a stock 5.0 and I supercharged it a year ago over last winter. I was nervous AF on my first start up! With lots of new fuel parts, PiMP ECU, and the blower I was afraid something would go wrong (like being too lean or rich). What do you know, car started up and idled very well the first time! Tuning it was a lot of fun too.

One more thing. If you have free towing coverage then you could use it to get your Mustang towed to the performance shop. I've done this before but I don't tell the insurance company that I've modified the car and getting it towed in order to get it tuned.

Thanks for the reply man! I'm definitely taking my time on everything and there's still a lot left to do, but I'm just trying to plan for the eventual startup and your checklist is a big help.

I wouldn't be as worried if it was just an engine swap, but being that it's brand new along with the turbo I want to make sure I won't hurt anything by running or maybe driving it before it's tuned. Since I know I can't really beat on it until the engine and trans/clutch are broken in, I'm wondering if I need a safe first tune and then a final tune once it's broken in...

I'm looking into the PiMP ECU since you mentioned it and it sounds pretty awesome. I don't have a tuner picked out yet, but I think I should probably talk to them before choosing an ECU right? There's a guy in my area (Sarasota FL) who is known for turbo mustangs so I'm planning on chatting with him to see what he recommends.

It looks like Stinger has options when ordering the PiMP where you'd enter your cam, boosted/non-boosted, 4cyl/V8, etc, so maybe they use that to "pre-tune" it? I don't know anything about tuning so I'm not sure if I can achieve a good daily driver tune with a chip or if I'd need to get a standalone ECU like the PiMP.

Did you do some kind of base tune on the PiMP before starting yours up? Do you think that's something someone without tuning knowledge could do, just to make it drivable until everything's broken in? I work in IT, so I'm not worried about the computer/software part, just the actual tuning part haha! I haven't had anyone work on the car other than me, so saving me a trip to the tuner until it's time for the final tune is definitely attractive

 

[FoxMustangLvr]

I don't have a tuner picked out yet, but I think I should probably talk to them before choosing an ECU right? There's a guy in my area (Sarasota FL) who is known for turbo mustangs so I'm planning on chatting with him to see what he recommends.

If you're going to have someone else tune your car, always go with what they recommend. Make sure you are comfortable with the person that is going to tune your car. He should be willing to listen to you and explain things to you. Most people blow up their turbo engines because a tune was setup too aggressively and didn't have good SAFETY NETS. When breaking in the engine you can setup up your ECU to cut fuel and/or spark if the boost gets over 'x' psi, or setup a rev limit. You could also put a small 4 psi spring in your waste gate.

It looks like Stinger has options when ordering the PiMP where you'd enter your cam, boosted/non-boosted, 4cyl/V8, etc, so maybe they use that to "pre-tune" it? I don't know anything about tuning so I'm not sure if I can achieve a good daily driver tune with a chip or if I'd need to get a standalone ECU like the PiMP.

You enter all of your info when ordering so they can get you the correct ECU for your combination as well as a proper base tune. The difference between a NA base tune and a boost tune is huge. I didn't know anything about tuning and I'm still learning. Somebody that helped me a lot is Steve @a91what . He has a dedicated thread to help people with tuning their own cars, great guy! If you choose to learn to tune your own car then you can always touch up the tune as things change over time. No need for paying hundreds of dollars every time you want to change heads, change cam, add more boost, etc. Choice is yours either way.

https://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/threads/steves-megasquirt-tunerstudio-help-thread.888730/

FYI, Stinger PimP and Megasquirt are very similar, both use tuner studio for making adjustments. See video below reagarding basic setup/functions in Tuner Studio. This software also comes with a datalog program called Megalogviewer. They both work together and are awesome.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNNVAdtl07I&t=1064s


I chose to go with PiMP because they have a dedicated tech forum where you can get help straight from Shannon (owns Stinger) and Wes K (designer of the program).
http://stinger-performance.proboards.com/board/6/pimp-tech-support-tuning

 

[FoxMustangLvr]

I'd also like to invite Scott to this conversation @90sickfox . He has a turbo stroker car and runs Megasquirt as well.

 

[FoxMustangLvr]

@wiseguyk I should've asked this earlier, please give us details on your "swap". What engine? What turbo? What are your hp goals and use for the car?

 

[a91what]

Just popping in since I got tagged... I can help a little or alot depending what you need. I suggest reading up on how AFR (air fuel ratio) works and what ignition timing is.

For the "safety nets" I can show you how to set those up, i did it for a certain someone who took his car to a "pro tuner" they kept adding timing while my safety pulled it out. If not for that the engine may have melted down.....

 

[90sickfox]

I run a 331 and on3 turbo with MSPNP2.

With your engine you could break it in with the smaller injectors and MAF.

You could even drive it to a runner like that without boost and install the injectors and MAF there.

I opted to buy mspnp2 because it's plug and play with the stock harness. In retrospect, I should be bought the MS3. Front get me wrong.... the ms2 does everything i need but three ms3 does more.

Steve, has been a huge help. There is a megasquirt thread here that will help you out if you decide to go that route.

Any issues that you come across we'd be glad to help out.

 

[wiseguyk]

@wiseguyk I should've asked this earlier, please give us details on your "swap". What engine? What turbo? What are your hp goals and use for the car?

Sorry, I should have detailed all of that but didn't know if this thread would get traction or not haha. The goal of the car is to have a nice powerful daily driver to take to the track occasionally. Oh, and my best friend has a 2011 GT that I'd like to be able to keep up with!

The engine is a Ford Racing 306 with GT40X heads, E cam, Edelbrock Performer intake, Ram stage 2 clutch, and Astro A5 trans. On3 70mm turbo and I put ARP studs and 9333 gaskets on it to better handle the boost. I know this combo isn't going to make the most power but I got it new for a steal, so I figured with the turbo it'll be fun and will likely push the limits of the stock Ford block anyway without better heads, cam, etc. Getting a "safe" tune is very important to me as I really want this to be a daily driver.

On3 recommended the 320lph pump and 60lb injectors, which I realize are probably more than I need, but the price wasn't bad to give me some options down the line if I ever decide to put a better motor in there.

Based on what I've seen online for the On3 kit on bone stock foxes, it seems possible to get near or over the 500hp mark. So I guess my goal would be to get the most out of it that I can "safely". Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like the Ford 2 bolt blocks get into the danger zone around the 500hp mark?

Thanks again for your help!

 

[wiseguyk]

Just popping in since I got tagged... I can help a little or alot depending what you need. I suggest reading up on how AFR (air fuel ratio) works and what ignition timing is.

For the "safety nets" I can show you how to set those up, i did it for a certain someone who took his car to a "pro tuner" they kept adding timing while my safety pulled it out. If not for that the engine may have melted down.....

Hey Steve, thanks for hopping in. I'll definitely read up on AFR and timing, I'm learning as I go along with all this stuff and it's been really fun. Thankfully my step dad has been a drag racer for years so he's been there to help out along the way, he's just not familiar with EFI or turbo cars at all so tuning and stuff is out of his wheelhouse.

I love the idea of your "safety nets" as it lines up with my goal of having this be as reliable as possible. Since I'm new to all this stuff, I've been wondering for a while what the difference is between getting my stock ECU "chipped" vs a standalone ECU like the PiMP?

I would assume that the standalone ECU gives you WAY more options and configurations as well as ability to add more inputs and outputs. What I'm wondering is, since I'm not going to be racing this car, would I still be better off with the standalone solution vs a chip? The PiMP is ~$1000 and I'm not sure what a chip costs, but curious your take on the tradeoff there between price and functionality. If I'm not going to be tweaking things often, is the standalone route necessary?

 

[wiseguyk]

I run a 331 and on3 turbo with MSPNP2.

With your engine you could break it in with the smaller injectors and MAF.

You could even drive it to a runner like that without boost and install the injectors and MAF there.

I opted to buy mspnp2 because it's plug and play with the stock harness. In retrospect, I should be bought the MS3. Front get me wrong.... the ms2 does everything i need but three ms3 does more.

Steve, has been a huge help. There is a megasquirt thread here that will help you out if you decide to go that route.

Any issues that you come across we'd be glad to help out.

Hi Scott, so I'd considered using the stock 19lb injectors for the break in period but I wasn't sure how to go about that with the turbo. We installed the turbo hot side last weekend. Sorry for my ignorance, but how would I run it without boost?

I'm also not sure how I could use the stock MAF since the new one is slot-style in the cold side piping. The new slot-style one is apparently programmed for the 60lb injectors so I'm guessing that wouldn't work too great with the 19lb injectors?

I love the idea of being able to fully break it in before taking it to the tuner, so I can save a few bucks not having to get it tuned twice

I asked Steve this question too and curious your opinion too, is it worth considering a "chip" solution vs a standalone ECU? Just curious the price vs functionality trade-off. Thanks so much for your help!

 

[a91what]

As long as you're not somewhere where you have to be emissions testing then you should be fine with a standalone. As far as functionality is concerned if you do a plug and play and build an extra harness you can control things like sans water meth kit systems shift lights And so forth. These systems are also capable of controlling elektronik boost controllersSo you can set these up wired into the ECU and then you decide what kind of boost you want to run at whatever rpm you can also set up over boost protectionLet's say you only run want to run 10 pounds of boost but for some reason the Turbo goes to 12 you can have it cut fuel or sparkTo stop things from going boom.

Most people tune one of these units were talking about without a MAF we all use a map sensor. However the system is capable of tuning with MAF so I can help you set that up if that's the route that you want to go if you decide to use a standalone.


Don't mind the talk to text

 

[FoxMustangLvr]

@wiseguyk
Your combo, if NA, would be lacking performance compared to other options. However, not everyone is in to "max effort" builds. When boosting a 302/306 SBF is does not take the best heads and custom cam in order to make block splitting power. Your HCI 306 with about 10psi is going to be a handful on the street and nobody will be able to wipe that smile off your face 450rwhp is what you'll be looking at which in a Foxbody is plenty enough to get you in trouble and beat most cars on the street if you can hook.

As far as stand alone vs. chip, IMO it's all about knowing your car and being able to make changes anytime you want. I love being able to connect my Surface Pro to my car and see all the data as I'm driving, record data logs, and keep an eye on my Manifold Air Temps (aka MAT or IAT). Soon I'll be installing my meth injection kit to help with my MAT. Additional VE tuning will likely be needed and I'll be able to datalog and record the results of different size nozzles and their placement. Having to set an appointment and pay somebody to do that isn't for me.

My "pro tuner" sob story, get your tissue
Safety nets. As I touched on earlier and Steve hinted I took my car to a "pro tuner" to dial in my timing a little better and see what kind of power I'm making. The dipchit kept adding timing pull after pull after pull. My engine was getting heatsoaked from my supercharger and my MAT was getting too high. When air temps get too high you have a high chance of detonation. The tuner did not ever look at my MAT and when I finally did (because I was worried) I saw they were at 224* and my ECU was pulling 9* timing (thanks to Steve!). I told the tuner about the safety net and he asked me to change the setting so the ECU would NOT pull the timing and I said HECK NO! After the appointment my car would stall when I came to a stop and idled. He messed with my idle and cruise VE table after I told him not to. I had to fix that as well as a few other things because my VE table was all over the place. I've been burned twice now. My first experience was with my previous notchback. I had it towed to the shop to have them fix a no spark issue and then have it dyno tuned. Car sat in a dirt field for 3 weeks untouched so I had to tow it back home. In short, I don't trust these guys with my car anymore. On the other hand, a lot of people have good experiences, what will yours be?

 

[wiseguyk]

As long as you're not somewhere where you have to be emissions testing then you should be fine with a standalone. As far as functionality is concerned if you do a plug and play and build an extra harness you can control things like sans water meth kit systems shift lights And so forth. These systems are also capable of controlling elektronik boost controllersSo you can set these up wired into the ECU and then you decide what kind of boost you want to run at whatever rpm you can also set up over boost protectionLet's say you only run want to run 10 pounds of boost but for some reason the Turbo goes to 12 you can have it cut fuel or sparkTo stop things from going boom.

Most people tune one of these units were talking about without a MAF we all use a map sensor. However the system is capable of tuning with MAF so I can help you set that up if that's the route that you want to go if you decide to use a standalone.


Don't mind the talk to text

Cool, yeah I'm in FL so thankfully no emission testing to worry about here Especially after hearing Matt say how much he loves his PiMP system I'm definitely leaning towards that direction. Having pretty much infinite options is definitely appealing, especially the protection against over boost and blowing stuff up!

I've definitely got some homework reading up on a bunch of stuff now. I'm not familiar with the MAP sensors but I'm guessing they're more accurate than the MAF because they're directly measuring manifold pressure? I'm kind of kicking myself for not asking all these questions sooner so I could have saved a few bucks, but in the grand scheme of what I've spent it's just drops in the bucket eh? lol

 

[wiseguyk]

@wiseguyk
Your combo, if NA, would be lacking performance compared to other options. However, not everyone is in to "max effort" builds. When boosting a 302/306 SBF is does not take the best heads and custom cam in order to make block splitting power. Your HCI 306 with about 10psi is going to be a handful on the street and nobody will be able to wipe that smile off your face 450rwhp is what you'll be looking at which in a Foxbody is plenty enough to get you in trouble and beat most cars on the street if you can hook.

As far as stand alone vs. chip, IMO it's all about knowing your car and being able to make changes anytime you want. I love being able to connect my Surface Pro to my car and see all the data as I'm driving, record data logs, and keep an eye on my Manifold Air Temps (aka MAT or IAT). Soon I'll be installing my meth injection kit to help with my MAT. Additional VE tuning will likely be needed and I'll be able to datalog and record the results of different size nozzles and their placement. Having to set an appointment and pay somebody to do that isn't for me.

My "pro tuner" sob story, get your tissue
Safety nets. As I touched on earlier and Steve hinted I took my car to a "pro tuner" to dial in my timing a little better and see what kind of power I'm making. The dipchit kept adding timing pull after pull after pull. My engine was getting heatsoaked from my supercharger and my MAT was getting too high. When air temps get too high you have a high chance of detonation. The tuner did not ever look at my MAT and when I finally did (because I was worried) I saw they were at 224* and my ECU was pulling 9* timing (thanks to Steve!). I told the tuner about the safety net and he asked me to change the setting so the ECU would NOT pull the timing and I said HECK NO! After the appointment my car would stall when I came to a stop and idled. He messed with my idle and cruise VE table after I told him not to. I had to fix that as well as a few other things because my VE table was all over the place. I've been burned twice now. My first experience was with my previous notchback. I had it towed to the shop to have them fix a no spark issue and then have it dyno tuned. Car sat in a dirt field for 3 weeks untouched so I had to tow it back home. In short, I don't trust these guys with my car anymore. On the other hand, a lot of people have good experiences, what will yours be?

Thanks Matt! I think I'm just used to seeing on so many forums stuff like "BOO! Why'd you waste your money on XYZ, it's utter crap and ABC will make more power!" so I'm glad you understand what I'm going for here I was originally looking at building a 347 with a Dart block and the best of everything, but it was gonna be WAY more expensive than the route I'm going. If I'm not gonna race it, it just didn't seem worth the expensive cost. That, and I've always wanted to turbo a fox so it seemed like a good compromise to me.

So, you're really convincing me on the standalone option. I'm a tech guy, and a tinkerer, and being able to log and analyze all my data is a HUGE selling point. I've never had this car to the shop for all the stuff I've done so far, so being able to actually learn how to tune it myself is really exciting too. I'm curious, do you have one of the "all in one" gauges for your PiMP that allows you to flip through a everything right from the gauge? Now THAT seems badass!

Wow, that's a crazy story! That's the exact thing I'm afraid of, not knowing which tuners in my area are actually "good" ones really worries me. Knowing that your tune protected you against that dude doing everything he could to break it is brilliant! I didn't realize how having a customizable ECU could actually act as insurance against all kinds of conditions. Now that I know that, the price tag doesn't seem as bad haha. Thanks so much for your advice and everything man, it's been so helpful!

 

[Noobz347]

Find a car club in your area. See where they take their cars.

 

[90sickfox]

On the break in you could take the cold side off the throttle body and let the turbo blow to atmosphere. On my on3 kit i can take the pipe loose behind the passenger fender. There's a coupler in between the pipe from the i recollect and the pipe to the intake. The MAF and a filter would be hooked up on the pipe end behind the fender.

That 60lb MAF will not like 19lb injectors.... but suitable stock MAFs are all over the junkyard.

Do you have a wideband ? You may have to bump fuel pressure up a little depending on your cam and what your engine wants to run. With 19lb you may run the risk of running a little lean higher up in the rpms. It will work for mild break in though.

I broke my engine in with 42lb injectors and the turbo hooked up but the waste gate was held open. In the beginning i had issues and had an episode where i dumped fuel in the cylinders. The first start was also with mspnp2.

Luckily, i pulled the plugs and it didn't damage anything. If i did it again i would definitely have used the 30lbs, MAF and computer i had laying around.

I've heard a lot of horror stories about tuners. We have one of the best ones right here on Stangnet.

Im working through running through videos that Steve has and trying to teach myself some things through research. It's not that bad.... especially for a techie. Im no where near a techie. Im barely computer literate.

 

[a91what]

Where did you say your from?

I'm actually in Plant City. I could have the car running and driving in less than an hour if it's in front of me.

 

[wiseguyk]

On the break in you could take the cold side off the throttle body and let the turbo blow to atmosphere. On my on3 kit i can take the pipe loose behind the passenger fender. There's a coupler in between the pipe from the i recollect and the pipe to the intake. The MAF and a filter would be hooked up on the pipe end behind the fender.

That 60lb MAF will not like 19lb injectors.... but suitable stock MAFs are all over the junkyard.

Do you have a wideband ? You may have to bump fuel pressure up a little depending on your cam and what your engine wants to run. With 19lb you may run the risk of running a little lean higher up in the rpms. It will work for mild break in though.

I broke my engine in with 42lb injectors and the turbo hooked up but the waste gate was held open. In the beginning i had issues and had an episode where i dumped fuel in the cylinders. The first start was also with mspnp2.

Luckily, i pulled the plugs and it didn't damage anything. If i did it again i would definitely have used the 30lbs, MAF and computer i had laying around.

I've heard a lot of horror stories about tuners. We have one of the best ones right here on Stangnet.

Im working through running through videos that Steve has and trying to teach myself some things through research. It's not that bad.... especially for a techie. Im no where near a techie. Im barely computer literate.

Sorry for the delay in replying, we were working on the car all day yesterday. I'm really torn on using the stock injectors and MAF for break in vs just getting the ECU and installing the final setup... I know it's not a ton of work to swap after the break-in, but I'd really like to install everything once if possible. If I go that route I'll definitely need to do some research and everything on the PiIMP or similar ECU setup but it does sound like the base tune they set when you order one has worked for people to at least get up and running.

If the ECU is tuned well enough for the new setup, do you see any issues with doing the break-in period like that? To hold the wastegate open, do you just take the spring completely out? I'm just trying to be super careful and weigh my options so I don't break anything

Thanks so much for your help, it's definitely encouraging that you're learning about everything yourself too and don't find it too challenging. I'm not very worried about the actual computer/connectivity/software part, but the actual TUNING part makes me nervous haha. Thankfully everyone on here is awesome and willing to help a newb like me If you have links to any of the videos that you've found helpful I'd love to check them out.

 

[wiseguyk]

Where did you say your from?

I'm actually in Plant City. I could have the car running and driving in less than an hour if it's in front of me.

We're pretty close by! I'm just over in Sarasota, and the shop where we're doing all the work is actually a little north, in Ellenton. Man, it would be freakin awesome to have someone like you who actually knows about tuning foxes to help!

Based on what everyone here's said, I'll probably order the PiMP this week so when the car is finally all back together I'll have a good shot of getting it running at least good enough for the break-in period. Maybe I can get enough research done and learning how to tweak stuff that I could get by with just picking your brain a bit on here. If not, then maybe a trailer trip to Plant City haha