Forced Induction New Engine And Turbo - First Start Questions

We're pretty close by! I'm just over in Sarasota, and the shop where we're doing all the work is actually a little north, in Ellenton. Man, it would be freakin awesome to have someone like you who actually knows about tuning foxes to help!

Based on what everyone here's said, I'll probably order the PiMP this week so when the car is finally all back together I'll have a good shot of getting it running at least good enough for the break-in period. Maybe I can get enough research done and learning how to tweak stuff that I could get by with just picking your brain a bit on here. If not, then maybe a trailer trip to Plant City haha :D
By bleeding the boost to atmosphere your engine becomes just like most other naturally aspirated HCI 306 builds out there. Steve (or whoever) just needs to set up your start up/idle settings which should be similar, with exception to cam, to most other combos. What some people worry about with big injectors on brand new engines with new tunes is accidentally dumping too much fuel on start up/idle and washing the cylinders with fuel. This would result in a rebuild. It doesn't happen often but some rookies have overlooked a setting had bad things happen which is why you're getting the recommendation to install smaller injectors for your first start up. I'm going to bow out of this conversation from here on out regarding tuning, Steve is the only voice you need IMO. I can chime in on other things if I see a need.

Post some pics of your ride! Good luck bro!
 
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By bleeding the boost to atmosphere your engine becomes just like most other naturally aspirated HCI 306 builds out there. Steve (or whoever) just needs to set up your start up/idle settings which should be similar, with exception to cam, to most other combos. What some people worry about with big injectors on brand new engines with new tunes is accidentally dumping too much fuel on start up/idle and washing the cylinders with fuel. This would result in a rebuild. It doesn't happen often but some rookies have overlooked a setting had bad things happen which is why you're getting the recommendation to install smaller injectors for your first start up. I'm going to bow out of this conversation from here on out regarding tuning, Steve is the only voice you need IMO. I can chime in on other things if I see a need.

Post some pics of your ride! Good luck bro!

Thanks Matt, that makes sense and the cylinder washing is what I'd read about which made me worried for the new injector setup since I really don't want to mess up this brand new engine!

Do you think as long as Steve or whoever sets up a decent first tune for it, would I be OK to run it with the big injectors and turbo? Or would I still be better off using the stock injectors and letting the boost into the atmosphere? I'd really like to just do this once, and am probably gonna order the PiMP today so if that route can work with the turbo and injectors from day one I'd lean that direction.

Again, I really appreciate all the advice man, it's been super valuable!

Pics!
IMG_20161210_160600.jpg IMG_20161210_160610.jpg IMG_20170611_155343.jpg IMG_20180203_151355.jpg IMG_20180203_163854.jpg
 
Do you think as long as Steve or whoever sets up a decent first tune for it, would I be OK to run it with the big injectors and turbo?
Steve is the one that helped me out and knows better than me so I will defer to him. He was very safe with my car and took many precautions to not mess anything up. I like that and it literally saved me from a rebuild (as you know).

Again, I really appreciate all the advice man, it's been super valuable!
Welcome!
 
Do you want to tune it SD [speed density] or with the MAF sensor? depending on your answer my advice will change.

as long as you are ready to go [fully built, good gas in tank, charged battery, good Wideband wired into the Pimp or MS3] I can help.
 
Reminds me of my previous notch I had before I bought my hatch. Except yours is much nicer :hail:

Haha well thank you but the pics I attached are definitely "glamour" shots and not as nice as it appears! :D

Once the motor and everything is in, I have a few suspension mods left to do and then it'll be time for a quality paint job.

I love the smoothed engine bay and wire tuck on your old notch and just flipped through some of your hatch build thread and man, that's a damn sexy car!
 
Do you want to tune it SD [speed density] or with the MAF sensor? depending on your answer my advice will change.

as long as you are ready to go [fully built, good gas in tank, charged battery, good Wideband wired into the Pimp or MS3] I can help.

I was gonna reach out to you today before I look into ordering the PiMP to see if there's anything else I should pick up along with it :)

Is there any downside to going with the MAF sensor vs SD? Since I already have the slot style MAF tuned to my injectors (along with the flange in the pipe coming from the intercooler), I'd love to go with that to save some cash but if you think it's worth going SD please let me know and what would be needed?

I know I'll need a wideband sensor, and Stinger sells a Bosch LSU 4.9 wideband. Is there a different one you recommend?

Sorry, I know I'm asking for a lot of info but if there is anything else I should go ahead and pick up along with the PiMP ECU please let me know.

Are you familiar at all with the "Perfect Tuning All-in-one" digital gauge Stinger offers? It seems pretty badass and I love the idea of being able to flip through tons of data while driving as well as the alerting features, plus being able to use one gauge instead of multiple is really appealing.

I know I still really need to do some research on everything myself so feel free to tell me to buzz off if I'm asking too much :p Thanks Steve, you rock!
 
Someone on the Stinger message boards asked if the PimpXS could run MAF and why more people haven't incorporated MAF over the SD function.......

Shannon at Stinger replied
"When the ECU is not tuneable, MAF is superior as it can adjust for variables you can't tune for (mods, sensors wearing out, engine degradation over time, etc.). When you have an ECU that's completely tuneable that benefit goes away since you can tune for mods, see when sensors are wearing out and replace them, etc.

Nothing is measuring airflow with an SD system. The MAP is measuring pressure/load (vacuum/boost) which is what's used to determine fuel and spark requirements.

As to why our customers haven't used MAF, it's simply a matter of starting with speed density and getting done tuning and it running better than it's ever ran (even when it was MAF before). Once that happens, nobody has decided they needed to spend money on a MAF in hopes of improving something that already runs better than ever and perfect as far as they can tell. From what I've seen, most of the "benefits" people have reported with MAF with a tuneable ECU has been with idle quality but spark is a more responsive way to control idle. So those individuals chose to use MAF to fix idle rather than taking the time to use the features that are available to them to control idle (close loop idle control, idle spark table, etc.)."


Read more: http://stinger-performance.proboards.com/thread/5914/pimpxs-support-maf#ixzz56GYFwBrT
 
Someone on the Stinger message boards asked if the PimpXS could run MAF and why more people haven't incorporated MAF over the SD function.......

Shannon at Stinger replied
"When the ECU is not tuneable, MAF is superior as it can adjust for variables you can't tune for (mods, sensors wearing out, engine degradation over time, etc.). When you have an ECU that's completely tuneable that benefit goes away since you can tune for mods, see when sensors are wearing out and replace them, etc.

Nothing is measuring airflow with an SD system. The MAP is measuring pressure/load (vacuum/boost) which is what's used to determine fuel and spark requirements.

As to why our customers haven't used MAF, it's simply a matter of starting with speed density and getting done tuning and it running better than it's ever ran (even when it was MAF before). Once that happens, nobody has decided they needed to spend money on a MAF in hopes of improving something that already runs better than ever and perfect as far as they can tell. From what I've seen, most of the "benefits" people have reported with MAF with a tuneable ECU has been with idle quality but spark is a more responsive way to control idle. So those individuals chose to use MAF to fix idle rather than taking the time to use the features that are available to them to control idle (close loop idle control, idle spark table, etc.)."


Read more: http://stinger-performance.proboards.com/thread/5914/pimpxs-support-maf#ixzz56GYFwBrT

Thanks Matt! So from what I understand, since my car is a 91 set up for mass air, the sensor has no vacuum connected to it and so it measures barometric pressure. For SD cars, the same sensor is used but has a vacuum line connected to the intake to measure manifold pressure.

Is that correct? This is the sensor I'm referring to:
dy527_8194.jpg

Correct me if I'm wrong, but for me to "convert" to MAP sensor I would just need to connect a vacuum line from the intake to that sensor? Then I guess I would just need to plug the slot in the MAF flange and leave the MAF sensor disconnected?

Kicking myself a bit for not talking to you guys before buying some of the parts I did lol :doh:
 
Thanks Matt! So from what I understand, since my car is a 91 set up for mass air, the sensor has no vacuum connected to it and so it measures barometric pressure. For SD cars, the same sensor is used but has a vacuum line connected to the intake to measure manifold pressure.

Is that correct? This is the sensor I'm referring to:
dy527_8194.jpg

Correct me if I'm wrong, but for me to "convert" to MAP sensor I would just need to connect a vacuum line from the intake to that sensor? Then I guess I would just need to plug the slot in the MAF flange and leave the MAF sensor disconnected?

Kicking myself a bit for not talking to you guys before buying some of the parts I did lol :doh:
I've learned many lessons just like you are doing and sometimes at a financial loss. If you choose to go SD (which I did), you could sell your MAF to recover some costs. In order to run SD, you just disconnect and remove your stock MAF and tuck away the connector. Next you disconnect your MAP sensor that's located on your firewall near your vacuum tree and remove it (tuck connectors away). The PIMP (at least on mine) has a MAP sensor inside the ECU. The PIMP will come with a +/- 6' length of vacuum hose to connect your ECU to a part of your intake manifold that will see both vacuum AND boost. It's that simple to convert MAF to SD.
 
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I've learned many lessons just like you are doing and sometimes at a financial loss. If you choose to go SD (which I did), you could sell your MAF to recover some costs. In order to run SD, you just disconnect and remove your stock MAF and tuck away the connector. Next you disconnect your MAP sensor that's located on your firewall near your vacuum tree and remove it (tuck connectors away). The PIMP (at least on mine) has a MAP sensor inside the ECU. The PIMP will come with a +/- 6' length of vacuum hose to connect your ECU to a part of your intake manifold that will see both vacuum AND boost. It's that simple to convert MAF to SD.

That's part of the fun, right? ;) I have a bunch of stuff to ebay/Craigslist from the old motor so I would just throw the MAF stuff on there too to hopefully recoup some of that cost.

Thanks for explaining the conversion back to SD. It's funny, I was just searching online and ONLY found articles and posts for going from SD to MAF since that's what most guys are looking to do with the older foxes but nothing for going MAF to SD.

I definitely dig the idea of ditching that sensor on the firewall, I considered moving it as part of the wire tuck but didn't so it would be great to chuck it :) I'm gonna try to dedicate some time tonight to reading up on the PiMPxs so I'll know more what to expect, along with starting my research into tuning in general.

So by using the built in MAP sensor on the PiMP, it can actually measure the boost pressure? What gauges do you have in your hatch hooked up to the PiMP? I'm looking at their all in one gauge, it's pricey but sure seems cool as hell! I have a standalone boost gauge, but the idea of one that can flip through the data from the PiMP is definitely a big plus over having several different gauges...
 
I can tune the car either way but for reference i do tune my own with SD. even if you do choose to go with the MAF for tuning i will still need the vacuum line connected to the ECU map sensor, i prefer to reference vacuum for the spark table. MUCH lower chance that i turn the car over to you and a small Ign table tweak based on MAF load burns holes in things.

FYI i take things slow when tuning, i use the same method for a 200hp 4 banger as i do for a 1000hp monster.
1- get it started
2- tweak it so it stays running long enough to warm up
3- triple check timing as i adjust idle fuel
4- set idle parameters and fuel until the car idles with highest vacuum signal attainable
5- set closed loop idle and test so that turning the wheel, AC, fans, clutching out slowly will not instantly stall the car.
6- free rev engine to get a small baseline to set fuel trim at 3k rpm
7- short drive while datalogging to tune from [or helper drives whilst i tune]
8- do this again
9- and again
10- you guessed it........ again
11- set acceleration enrichment parameters based on idle injector open time
12- interpolate fuel map at WOT run with CAI or wastegate held open
13- interpolate boost fuel based on N/A WOT fuel run on spring pressure
14- 6psi
15- 8psi
16-10psi
17- 14psi
18- DRINK BEER AND EAT BBQ
 
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That multi input gauge is pretty sweet. Honestly with my car once i set it, i forget it. My car runs so dang well that I don't pay much attention to anything except to what's already on my dash. I have a 2 pod pillar mount that has my AEM wideband gauge and my AEM boost gauge. I rarely look at my boost gauge, I glance over to my AFR from time to time and that's about it. I'm more concerned with my IAT and water temps to be honest. So far my 5.0 runs like clockwork and when the boost hits.......I'm wheelin' the car and focused on the road (not gauges) :)
:burnout:
 
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With the tuning software you can see every sensor connected to the ECU in real time and what they are reading. Any decent name brand WideBand sensor and gauge will do as long as it is connected to the ECU. You get what you pay for with these things so spend your money wisely. The great thing about the PIMPxs is it is sequential... So the idle quality will be easier to obtain than a batchfire system. I built my own ECU from a bag of parts for less than 500$ but i have a more basic ECU.... still has enough power to do everything i need it to, it controls my shift light, radiator fan, and WMeth system. i went to EDIS8 so no more distributor.... but i just could not fit it back into the stock location after the Eaton M112 install.
 
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Damn that is so cool! I'm really getting pumped about all this. I'm a programmer and work on embedded stuff related to GPS and vehicle tracking for work so getting to peak at everything the ECU is connected to in real time really has me excited! Add in the data logging and analytics and it's a nerd's dream lol Now I just need to learn about all the parameters and everything related to making the engine actually run.

Steve, @90sickfox mentioned watching some videos you recommended to him on tuning, any chance you can pass those along? I'm making it my goal to have a good enough grasp on the basics by the time the car is put back together that I'll at least be able to get it running :)

I feel like a broken record on this, but again I can't say thank you enough. I've gotten so much more info from you guys over just a few days and it has me feeling much more confident that I'll be able to get my car running again. If I ever meet any of you, I'm definitely buying us a few rounds to show my appreciation! :cheers:
 
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By bleeding the boost to atmosphere your engine becomes just like most other naturally aspirated HCI 306 builds out there. Steve (or whoever) just needs to set up your start up/idle settings which should be similar, with exception to cam, to most other combos. What some people worry about with big injectors on brand new engines with new tunes is accidentally dumping too much fuel on start up/idle and washing the cylinders with fuel. This would result in a rebuild. It doesn't happen often but some rookies have overlooked a setting had bad things happen which is why you're getting the recommendation to install smaller injectors for your first start up. I'm going to bow out of this conversation from here on out regarding tuning, Steve is the only voice you need IMO. I can chime in on other things if I see a need.

Post some pics of your ride! Good luck bro!

Thanks Matt, that makes sense and the cylinder washing is what I'd read about which made me worried for the new injector setup since I really don't want to mess up this brand new engine!

Do you think as long as Steve or whoever sets up a decent first tune for it, would I be OK to run it with the big injectors and turbo? Or would I still be better off using the stock injectors and letting the boost into the atmosphere? I'd really like to just do this once, and am probably gonna order the PiMP today so if that route can work with the turbo and injectors from day one I'd lean that direction.

Again, I really appreciate all the advice man, it's been super valuable!

Pics!
IMG_20161210_160600.jpg IMG_20161210_160610.jpg IMG_20170611_155343.jpg IMG_20180203_151355.jpg IMG_20180203_163854.jpg

This happened during Raceoholic's build. I think he even describes the circumstances.