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Fox Please help: Electrical load creates missfire ?!

  • Thread starter Thread starter martroy
  • Start date Start date Sep 29, 2024
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Mcmahst

5 Year Member
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Nov 22, 2024
#41
  • Nov 22, 2024
  • #41
Can you state exactly what you changed before you started your have this issue?
 

AeroCoupe

lube between the nut and the face. I know my lubes
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Nov 23, 2024
#42
  • Nov 23, 2024
  • #42
What about the engine to chassis ground?
 
M

martroy

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#43
  • Nov 23, 2024
  • #43
Mcmahst said:
Can you state exactly what you changed before you started your have this issue?
Click to expand...
From what I recall and could affect that, a solenoid controlled by a relay, witch is turn on by the MS. I've removed all wiring/relay/solenoid to make its not related. I had a MSD bix, witch I've removed and wiring too.
 
M

martroy

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#44
  • Nov 23, 2024
  • #44
AeroCoupe said:
What about the engine to chassis ground?
Click to expand...
I do have:

Battery negative to shock bolt. Engine to sway bar bolt and cylinder head to firewall.
 
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General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair
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#45
  • Nov 24, 2024
  • #45
martroy said:
Battery negative to shock bolt
Click to expand...
Shock bolt?
You mean the shock bracket to body bolt?
 

Mcmahst

5 Year Member
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#46
  • Nov 24, 2024
  • #46
You should have a 2 ga wire going from the battery negative to a solid bolt on the engine.
 
M

martroy

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#47
  • Nov 24, 2024
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General karthief said:
Shock bolt?
You mean the shock bracket to body bolt?
Click to expand...
You are right, shock bracket.
 
Reactions: General karthief
M

martroy

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#48
  • Dec 2, 2024
  • #48
Blown88GT said:
Multimeter won't show electrical noise, you need an oscilloscope.
Click to expand...
Update: I've used an oscilloscope to capture TFI module and would like help get the right diag about finding.

Here the wiring for TFI:

6-PIP
5-Spout
4-Start Signal
3-Run Power
2-Coil
1-Ignition ground

I've used: Yellow channel VS Blue channel.

All traces were captures while idling except: "Start Signal vs RunPower_IgnitionOn_02.bmp" witch is with only KOEO.

Let me know,

Thanks
 

Attachments

  • PIP vs Run Power_02.webp
    17.4 KB · Views: 67
  • PIP vs Start Signal_01_v2.webp
    17.6 KB · Views: 70
  • PIP vs Start Signal_02_v2.webp
    16.9 KB · Views: 76
  • Start Signal vs RunPower_01.webp
    17.9 KB · Views: 75
  • Start Signal vs RunPower_01_v2.webp
    17.6 KB · Views: 76
  • Start Signal vs RunPower_IgnitionOn_02.webp
    17.1 KB · Views: 65

AeroCoupe

lube between the nut and the face. I know my lubes
Founding Member
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183
Claremore, OK
Dec 3, 2024
#49
  • Dec 3, 2024
  • #49
Only a couple folks on here that can help with that and @CassieL may be one of them.
 

Noobz347

Stangnet Facilities Maint Tech... Er... Janitor
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#50
  • Dec 3, 2024
  • #50
We're just going all the way down the rabbit hole.

martroy said:
Let me know,
Click to expand...

I'm not certain what there is to let you know.

Let [us] know if scoping the TFI module helps you in any way, shape, or form. If you suspect the module is bad, swap it.
 
M

martroy

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#51
  • Dec 3, 2024
  • #51
Noobz347 said:
We're just going all the way down the rabbit hole.



I'm not certain what there is to let you know.

Let [us] know if scoping the TFI module helps you in any way, shape, or form. If you suspect the module is bad, swap it.
Click to expand...

TFI module has been replaced by a motorcraft and issue still there.

What I'm curious or what I should say, I'm wondering if its "normal" to get spike from 7,5v to 16v+ on "start signal" and "run power" from TFI while idling.

I've probed there because that was the easiest place, not because I suspected TFI. I'm new to scope so that why I'm asking help.

Thanks
 

General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair
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#52
  • Dec 3, 2024
  • #52
Curious......change plug wires recently? Don't run out and by any, more to the point, what kind are they?
Solid core or regular resistor?
 
M

martroy

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Dec 3, 2024
#53
  • Dec 3, 2024
  • #53
General karthief said:
Curious......change plug wires recently? Don't run out and by any, more to the point, what kind are they?
Solid core or regular resistor?
Click to expand...
Recently no. I've changed them for troubleshooting purpose to see if that might "fix" the behavior, witch is not.

Autolite 3924.
 

FastDriver

I was uncomfortably high & wearing a helmet
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#54
  • Dec 3, 2024
  • #54
Think he was asking about the wires, not plugs.
 

Mcmahst

5 Year Member
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Laguna Woods CA, fort Mohave AZ
Dec 4, 2024
#55
  • Dec 4, 2024
  • #55
Did we verify that the shielding on the wiring to the ECU was intact? Also, if you’re getting 16v anywhere, just wondering if a bad regulator on the Alt could be creating unusual symptoms?
 

General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair
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#56
  • Dec 4, 2024
  • #56
FastDriver said:
Think he was asking about the wires, not plugs.
Click to expand...
yes, the plug WIRES, similar issue but a little different, solid core wires were install on a friend's car, brand X with an HEI distributor, the solid core, well non-resistor wires anyway, high RPM miss, you usually get that annoying radio buzz, not fun like a beer buzz.
he didn't have a radio
 
M

martroy

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Dec 4, 2024
#57
  • Dec 4, 2024
  • #57
FastDriver said:
Think he was asking about the wires, not plugs.
Click to expand...
My mistake.

Same answer for : I've changed them to see if it will fix my issue and its not.

Ford Racing 9mm to Taylor Thundervolt 8.2
 
M

martroy

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Dec 4, 2024
#58
  • Dec 4, 2024
  • #58
Mcmahst said:
Did we verify that the shielding on the wiring to the ECU was intact? Also, if you’re getting 16v anywhere, just wondering if a bad regulator on the Alt could be creating unusual symptoms?
Click to expand...
I'm new to oscilloscope since that issue so it's a give or take.

Measurement has been taken on the TFI, both voltage (start signal and run power).

I have changed the alternator and issue is still the same. I do have a third one brand new on the shelf.

It doesnt make sense to me 2 on 3 are defect but I will do the swap and report back because this make me sick not finding the cause....

Thank you guys
 

CassieL

Active Member
May 15, 2024
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Dec 6, 2024
#59
  • Dec 6, 2024
  • #59
PIP and SPOUT should have a square wave.
Pin 3 should be battery voltage with key on and cranking. Coil trigger is a ground to the primary side of the coil. The module turns off the ground to fire the coil.
I can't make anything from those pictures.
What's what? Where are you testing from.
 
M

martroy

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Dec 7, 2024
#60
  • Dec 7, 2024
  • #60
CassieL said:
PIP and SPOUT should have a square wave.
Pin 3 should be battery voltage with key on and cranking. Coil trigger is a ground to the primary side of the coil. The module turns off the ground to fire the coil.
I can't make anything from those pictures.
What's what? Where are you testing from.
Click to expand...

Hey @CassieL, thanks for taking time reading my thread and trying to helping me.

First, I'm trying to use oscilloscope (first time user) to see if that will help me out finding the root source of the issue and fix it after all.

I know PIP and Spout are square wave but curious about result of what I've scoped.

Let me recap issue fast and easily. When my engine is running at 2K or higher, a high load spike like electrical fan, heater blower, will create a misfire and as megasquirt user, in logs, we see RPM jump to the moon (30K RPM !) When alternator is unplugged, I cant reproduce the issue. A lots of thing as been verified and replaced like distributor, TFI module, Alternator, plugs, wires, etc and now, I'm trying to see with oscilloscope.

I've hookup scope by backprobing TFI module while engine idling.

If you look at "PIP vs Run Power_02", PIP is yellow while Run Power is blue line. It is normal to get noise like this? Same question for "PIP vs Start Signal_01_v2", PIP is yellow while Run Power is blue line?

If you look at "Start Signal vs Run Power_01" Start Signal is yellow while Run Power is blue line, I've done that test cause in diagram, the 12V is not coming from the same source so I tought it could be interesting to capture both.

Thanks
 
Last edited: Dec 7, 2024
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