Stand alones; which one and why

[Killercanary]

I've made the decision that I will be getting a stand alone for my car in the next year or so. I don't know how much info I'll get here on the subject, but I figured I'd post it up for discussion anyway.

I heard a lot of bad things about the AEM when it first came out, but I recently had the chance to see it in use in my buddy Mike's 9 second fox body. He went through and showed me the datalogs and how there are a number of extra inputs that can be converted to read virtually anything that you can import with a voltage. I was REALLY impressed with it and its capabilities. He informed that when it came out it received some bad press because some notable tuner said that the timing varied greatly between each cylinder. Mike has checked his and sees nothing of the sort. I really like that it is basically a plug in deal with minimal wire splicing. I think, though I'm not positive, that some of the others such as fast and the like require you to splice it into the cars wiring. Can anyone confirm this? I also liked the fact that I can run speed density or a MAF with the AEM. I think I'll run it via speed density so that I can help offset some of the cost of the stand alone by saving on buying a new MAF meter.

 

[final5-0]

Well Paul

I'd help if I could but the only things I could offer is just general obversations I've seen over time.

I'm sure you already know anything I could offer.

They sure do offer things that look so appealing.

Maybe when you get the complete scoop you would be willing to share a brief write up telling us all the good stuff.

I just could not see myself investing the effort to learn about other methods when I was able to get pretty decent results with the older Dinosaur Manual Method I currently use

Then there is the cost of the newer methods

Grady

 

[94gsl5.0]

AEM is very nice. I have no complaints. For the price i don't think it can be beat.

I highly recommend shooting an e-mail to Bob Kurgan if you have questions about its performance or compatibility with an sn-95. He was very informative about the AEM EMS.

http://www.kurganmotorsports.com/

 

[blksn955.o]

Fast is SD as far as I know and that would prob. be my choice if I was to do stand alone. All I really know about AEM and Fast (and all other stand alones really) is that they are for a far hairy-ier combo than I have.

 

[94gsl5.0]

You don't need a hairy combo to run stand alone. In the right hands a stand alone setup with MAP will almost always put down more power than a conventional flash and MAF (back to back and the same setup) and it can grow with you IF you are willing to learn and do it yourself. If i had to do it all over again stand alone would by far be my FIRST mod, well maybe the air silencer 1st....lol.

 

[blksn955.o]

for the cost...I will take my tweecerR/T at my level.

Those stand alone setups are 1000$ starting price. On the power thing normaly...I dunno maybe some but I would bet that is more from the SD (IMHO its just better for power), its just that I dont see people getting much more out of a basic stock bottom end or 302 with a "average" H/C/I setup with a tweecer/pms/eec tuner vs. a fast or AEM. Maybe a few hp not night and day...

However, put a FAST on a dart based stroker with some (15+) boost or out of the norm setup that was very very well thought out and yes I can see the fast/aem being not only safer but more able to controle things better and more precise.

not to drag grady into this but I think his combo with a tweecerR/T stock maf and stock t-body on the H/C/I setup from FTI would just not gain a whole lot (to merrit the double startup cost) with a stand alone.

 

[94gsl5.0]

You bring up good points blksn.

I too think MAP tuning is a nice chunk of the power gains from running stand alone (inlet restrictions like MAF's can really hold ya back)...

but certainly not ALL of the power gains. don't discount dual o2 feedback via stand alone lets you run on the ragged edge safely. Whether your NA or boosted. Hence more power on top of your SD tune.

Also Lets not forget other advantages like control of add ons and drivability.

AEM/EMS allows for control of anything that requires a 5 volt or switch input.. So you add on.... it grows with you. Plus you can log your new inputs and ouputs. For instance meth injection can be controlled from your ECU... trick stuff.

Traction control is available where it was never available on our cars. Which means you get the jump at the stoplight battle.

Nitrous or boost control... internal data logging, the list goes on and on.

I know the tweecer is awsome tool and i am not downplaying it at all. If thats the tool you already have, cool... but if you don't have a tweecer or some other form of programmable tuning yet and are looking for a way to play with the tune... give AEM a try it's worth every penny, especially if you know you will continue to evolve and build your car.

 

[final5-0]

Very interesting thread

In no way would I say the Tweecer is the ... be all ... or ... end of it all ... method for self tuning the average Joe can use.

I have seen many interesting threads about combos that you would NOT call your typical mostly street and a little strip combo. They were forced induction, high hp, nothing being held back, kind of combos.

The focus of these threads was on the tuning.

Most of them were using some kind of stand alone system.

It was the genreal thinking in those threads the oem pcm could hold back the power.

At what point or hp level ....... I could not say

However

Usually with these kinda things ... when several have an experience
and
the outcome is the same
whether you believe or understand it
if you have an open mind
its kinda hard to poo poo those peeps

No doubt about it ... newer methods after the Tweecer have gotten more user friendly You're gonna pay more for them as well

however in this case

I'm thinking there could be more to be gained than just its easier to use advantage.

The Tweecer interface and those stand alone systems really should not be compared to each other IMHO. They are not in the same League.

Does a stand alone system give more power for a typical na street combo in the 300 to 350rwhp category than the Tweecer

My gut feeling would be if it was any ... it would be very little.

Many things can influence and skew the answer to a Q like that.

I've seen peeps who poo pooed the Tweecer
but
If the truth be told
Setting the idle was a major challenge for them.

Knowledge and Skills is a MAJOR consideration when using ANY method of tuning your Stang

The Tweecer is a great little system that the average Joe can use to tune his Stang and IMHO, it offers the biggest bang for the buck spent.

however

I think its a given to say these stand alone systems go a good deal past what an EEC Tuner, Tweecer, SCT, PMS, or any other oem pcm plug on interface can go or do.

IMHO, stand alone is a bit of an over kill for a street combo.

I do know and try to not forget my opinion is biased since I have been involved with the self tuning thing for a while. Its just a thing I find interesting so I have picked up a little of the knowledge here and there as it has been made available to the general public. My ability to be at ease with manually making pcm adjustments is by product of that interest I guess you could say

Those who are willing to spend more money for the ability of more user friendlyness ... In no way am I trying to put them down or anything like that.

Hey ... We all want a magic box that tunes our car with NO investment on our part in learning ANYTHING about tuning or WHY our Stang NEEDS or RESPONDS to tuning changes

If you look at the things 94gsl5.0 had to say ............
You can see he DID NOT JUST
Turn on his AEM... and all was tuned to perfection

You gotta be willing to learn a thing or two if you wanna tune
Tuning ain't a ... Somethin for Nothin kinda deal
Sorry ... had to get that off my chest
Rant over now

I guess I'm done rambling ... for now ... and I look forward to where this thread is gonna go

Grady

 

[Killercanary]

I highly recommend shooting an e-mail to Bob Kurgan if you have questions about its performance or compatibility with an sn-95. He was very informative about the AEM EMS.

http://www.kurganmotorsports.com/

That's who my buddy Mike recommended to me as well. He said Bob has been VERY helpful.

for the cost...I will take my tweecerR/T at my level.

Those stand alone setups are 1000$ starting price

Here's something to concider though. With the twEECer and all other piggy back tuning devises you are still going to need to run a MAF system. So usually in addition to the twEECer you will also need to buy a MAF. Granted, its still cheaper than buying a stand alone without the need for a MAF, but it narrows the price gap down. If you were to get a twEECer RT with its datalogging capabilities along with the MAF how much would it cost?

Also Lets not forget other advantages like control of add ons and drivability.

AEM/EMS allows for control of anything that requires a 5 volt or switch input.. So you add on.... it grows with you. Plus you can log your new inputs and ouputs. For instance meth injection can be controlled from your ECU... trick stuff.

Traction control is available where it was never available on our cars. Which means you get the jump at the stoplight battle.

Nitrous or boost control... internal data logging, the list goes on and on.

These are some of the main things that have me liking the AEM. My buddy Mike has two AEM widebands hooked up and they interface with the AEM stand alone. Talk about tunability! Where most people with a wideband have to watch it, then stop and make adjustments to the EEC and then go back out and see what the effect was, the AEM can datalog it by itself and adjustments can be made on the fly. I REALLY liked the way that any voltage source can be input and read. Mike is using a few inputs to monitor exact boost levels, air intake temperature, etc. What totally impressed me was when he showed me a datalog of one entire track outing. For every run back to back I could see the timing, boost level, air intake temp, and A/F at every RPM; and I could see the total time of the run, when and where the shifts took place, etc. It blew my mind!


I'm still going to keep my eec tuner for my '90GT but with the direction I know my car is headed over the next few years the stand alone is the only way to go for me. I won't need it this year, but I may try and buy it anyway. I still have 24lb injectors which i know are going to be too small for my new combo even in its current form, but I don't want to buy new injectors and have my MAF re-calibrated now when next year I'll need MUCH MUCH larger injectors. The stand alone will allow me to pick up a used set of 30's now and not have to worry about the MAF. The other reason I want a stand alone is that I'll be into the low impedance injectors down the road and I don't want to have to run a converter along with the EEC tuner to get it to work when the stand alones can accept them already. I think the stand alone is the much better option for me at that point.

If I end up getting it this winter we may see what your average HCI combo does with a stand alone and no MAF versus an eec tuned one. My new combo will have some changes from my old one, but not many.


Grady, if ever get a chance to look at one of the AEM's in a car DO IT! I think you'll need a towel to wipe the drool from the screen though!

I may start another thread in here with some questions on my eec tuner. I haven't touched it in over 2-3yrs, so I've forgotten a TON of stuff. I want to find out if there is any way I can data log with it now. Currently I'm not even using the GUI interface or anything other than the software that came with the eec tuner.

 

[blksn955.o]

Here's something to concider though. With the twEECer and all other piggy back tuning devises you are still going to need to run a MAF system. So usually in addition to the twEECer you will also need to buy a MAF. Granted, its still cheaper than buying a stand alone without the need for a MAF, but it narrows the price gap down. If you were to get a twEECer RT with its datalogging capabilities along with the MAF how much would it cost?

Sorry if I dont quite understand your statement?? are you saying that "if" the tweecer came with its own maf (like an aftermarket maf)...like some stand alone may (guessing here) include?

FWIW-I paid 50$ for a 98gt 80mm maf that flows somewere around high 1,100cfm to 1,200 cfm in its limits vs. the stocker that is done by 850-900cfm. I think the Lmaf 90mm goes to like 1400-1500 cfm then its step up to a sct meter.

Dont get me wrong I think those stand alones are nice with a ton more options and maybe even dare I say it ease of use if not from manuf. support. I also think that from the hints you have posted about your plans and your current build a stand alone is a good choice for what and how you use your car. Esp. if your wanting to straight line and maybe now autox the thing alittle. Guy I know is building a t76 383 (made like 500hp n/a) monte that he plans to run at 20psi and is using a holly pro jection deal on and that is old compared to the new stuff and that is NEET-O.

If I could justify spending the cash for the initial purchase over the tweecerR/T for my goals and needs then I would have gone stand alone. I have no desire to go any faster in this car than it will go with its curr. setup...maybe a few changes but nothing more than taking off the valve covers.

 

[final5-0]

Yes Paul

I remember the first time someone told me that the AEM could make adjustments based upon the data it collected from it's wb O2's

I was like

No way

Get outta town

We have come such a long way in just a handful of years

In both hardware AND software

Grady

 

[Don 95Vert]

Hey Paul - I too am an advocate of ruuning a stock EEC system until you get to the point where a)you need injectors bigger than 60-75# injectors or if b)you need to rev the motor somewhere north of 6500-7500 RPMs. After that, you probably do need an aftermarket system. I like AEMs.

The OEM control system is really terrific IMHO. Our Mustang - which is my son Rob's now (college graduation present... whatta dad I am!) is putting down probably mid 700 RWHP with a stock EEC. My Turbo 357 Lightning is definatey putting down less, but it makes a ton of power and also has a stock EEC system. Last summer we tuned a Gen 2 Turbo Lightning - and as far as I know it's the highest HP street driven Lightning - it put down 800/800. Stock EEC. There are a couple of Ford GT Supercars that make over 1000 RWHP with MAFs. I can't count the number of 600+RWHP cars we have tuned with stock EECs. All of our cars and the Lightning have just about stock driveability.

MAFs are really not a problem these days - IMHO, the 'calibrated' MAFs are a problem to tune. But the availability of MAFs made specifically for high HP levels and MAF extenders makes HP limits essentially limitless on the street. The 800 RWHP Lightning had a BA 2800 and a Diablo MAF.ia and it does NOT peg. I guess at that HP level the 90mm MAF may be a slight restriction, but on a forced induuctionb application, it's really a non-issue.

I also am an advocate, though admittedly biased, towards the SCT pro Racer package. With it and a good wideband that'll do a lot of different datalogging, you can tune it yourself and have the ability to make changes as you see fit.

Good luck with it, lemme know how it's going!

Don

 

[Redsnk95]

There really isn't much datalogging that can be done with the SCT and ODB1 setups. That was the one backdraw on using SCT on our cars.
Paul of course you know I'm an advocate of the PMS and its a great system. I have a few friends that are running the AEM and they really like it, a few even say they have better driveability with the AEM.
The PMS works great for ME and what I need it to do. I don't drive my car on the street so I could careless about driveability (although my drives around like a stock car). I just need my car to idle well and do well at WOT...the PMS is easy to use in all areas and works well. I also use the built-in 2step function and I'm about to start using the InterACQ to datalogging my wideband and a few other functions.

I thought about swapping to the AEM but in all honesty I'm just lazy. I know the PMS inside and out and have been using it for years there is no reason for me to change...lol.

Its always in the hands of the user, if you like the AEM then go for it, it is a great system. Bob is a great place to go through for the AEM he has some customers that are making 750rwhp plus with the stock TFI/AEM setup.

 

[havi94GT]

I just got my AEM in the car with Dual widbands, and love it. I plan on going bigger though, and I would definitely do ti the same way again. the thing is easier to use than the TwEECer RT, you can do more fine tuning without fighting the computer (editing the damn thing more than once to find out that the computer doesnt like the numbers you gave it ) and you dont have to buy anything else for it to do lag free turbo control, nitrous (both fuel and N2O)................................. I guess the decision is up to you.

 

[Big Jay]

The AEM is well worth the money vs. performance. With the AEM you don't have to add any wiring to the fire wall.

If you run a map sensor...
Red = 5V +/-, steal it from the EGR, Thermactor, AIT, TPS
Signal= Use a wire from one of the diverter valves or the egr
Ground= Signal ground it is GRY/RED on the SNs. All the injector grounds, tps, ait, egr, coolant, all use this ground.

My point is that it is simple to install. Even if you add knock sensors, egt sensors, or dry N2O.

Built in data logger, boost controler, traction control, knock control, sensor wizards, the list goes on.

I'm sure the Big Stuff and the FAST can do the same thing...pause...not. The AEM can do things these systems can't and using ALL of fords sensors. The onlything the AEM doesn't do its overlay the datalog on the actual tuning tables. But I heard they were working on that.

 

[94gsl5.0]

Big Jay

I know this is not exactly an overlay of the data logs on the tables but this might help. A guy on stangtuning found a way to tune cell by cell by using a program called snagit. This way he was able to see exactly which cell was being used at a specific time on any table. For those not familer you can track which cell the car is using during a drive but it never actually records which cell its using when data logging. On the data logs youcan log anything the system has plugged into it, just not which cell.

http://www.stangtuning.com/showthread.php?t=4474

 

[Killercanary]

Big Jay

I know this is not exactly an overlay of the data logs on the tables but this might help. A guy on stangtuning found a way to tune cell by cell by using a program called snagit. This way he was able to see exactly which cell was being used at a specific time on any table. For those not familer you can track which cell the car is using during a drive but it never actually records which cell its using when data logging. On the data logs youcan log anything the system has plugged into it, just not which cell.

http://www.stangtuning.com/showthread.php?t=4474

LOL! That is my buddy Mike who I refered to above that came up with that. Here's his site:
http://www.mikeymustang.com

Thanks for the replies everyone. Is the part load stumble eliminated yet with the AEM that I read so much about?

 

[94gsl5.0]

Using verison 1.11 of the AEM firmware i was getting the part load stumble every half hour or so running the car. It only happened at light loads on tip in. I played with the coil dwell, as well as the timing in the light load cells and picked up a working MSD box and i rarely if ever get the stumble anymore. (This is probably due to the coil dwell settings than the aformentioned other mods) I am still running 1.11, just didn't see any reason to upgrade in the past.

However, My friends are running the newest versions of the firmware and are able to take advantage of the new serial gauges... very nice stuff. You can display ANYTHING on the guage that the ECU is reading... As soon as i get some cashola gonna try and score me a couple and upgrade my firmware.

 

[MikeyMustang]

WOW got some hit on my site and tracked them back to here! LOL

Paul:

I can honestly say I have NO part throttle stumble....its all in tuning the cells "right off of the idle cells"


The car has been sitting for months...got in it today cause I had to move a dryer in the basement and it fired right up

Paul you have my number...if you have any questions you can call

Mike

 

[MustangGT95]

Buddy runs AEM stand alone on a very very very modded GSX. It works well. He still hasn't mastered it but it runs decent. You can do a lot of stuff with it. Plus it eliminates a toooon of sensors. I'm not 100% sure but I think he may only have a TPS now. I know he no longer has o2's (besides a wideband). However...without sensors I'd say tracking down problems may be rough.