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Fox Trick Flow 170’s on a 331 Stroker

  • Thread starter Thread starter Woodbutcher
  • Start date Start date Dec 1, 2019
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revhead347

Apparently my ex-husband made that mistake.
20+ Year Stangneter
Jun 14, 2004
9,302
1,644
214
Acworth, GA
Dec 26, 2019
#101
  • Dec 26, 2019
  • #101
from6to8 said:
My swap was legit. That thing would've sold in a NY minute. Hence my screen name
Click to expand...

Most people don't dig on the double bookshelf wing.

Kurt
 

revhead347

Apparently my ex-husband made that mistake.
20+ Year Stangneter
Jun 14, 2004
9,302
1,644
214
Acworth, GA
Dec 26, 2019
#102
  • Dec 26, 2019
  • #102
Colonel karthief said:
I am not debating the value of a 4 cyl to V8 swap.
I am not debating the value of a lx or gt car in any condition.
What I am saying, if someone is looking for a cobra mustang the value of that car will be more if the numbers matching engine is available. More so for a first year car like a 93 cobra or even a 94-5 cobra, maybe not today but I'm willing to bet in the future.
You may not see the value or even really care now, I have seen (in the past of course) where a limited build car sells for far less because it did not have the original engine.
It is, after all, your car, do what you want, it just makes my cobra worth more in the end
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, I was talking about a general V8 swap. A 93' Cobra is ridiculous money as numbers matching car.

Kurt
 

General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair
20+ Year Stangneter
Aug 25, 2016
27,935
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polk county florida
Dec 26, 2019
#103
  • Dec 26, 2019
  • #103
revhead347 said:
I'm sorry, I was talking about a general V8 swap. A 93' Cobra is ridiculous money as numbers matching car.

Kurt
Click to expand...
I knew what you were saying, and I agree with your statement.
thank you!
just for informational purposes lets ask @95steedamustang if the original engine should be kept with a 93 cobra.
keeping in mind I am not being critical of him sticking the numbers matching engine from a 93 cobra into another car, I am saying it's not a good idea from a collectable standpoint because 5.0 engines are plentiful but only one belongs in that cobra.
 
Last edited: Dec 26, 2019

revhead347

Apparently my ex-husband made that mistake.
20+ Year Stangneter
Jun 14, 2004
9,302
1,644
214
Acworth, GA
Dec 26, 2019
#104
  • Dec 26, 2019
  • #104
Colonel karthief said:
I knew what you were saying, and I agree with your statement.
thank you!
just for informational purposes lets ask @95steedamustang if the original engine should be kept with a 93 cobra.
keeping in mind I am not being critical of him sticking the numbers matching engine from a 93 cobra into another car, I am saying it's not a good idea from a collectable standpoint because 5.0 engines are plentiful but only one belongs in that cobra.
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter what parts that metal artist assembles, it's worth more than whatever Ford slapped together.

Kurt
 
Reactions: General karthief

General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair
20+ Year Stangneter
Aug 25, 2016
27,935
10,575
203
polk county florida
Dec 26, 2019
#105
  • Dec 26, 2019
  • #105
revhead347 said:
Doesn't matter what parts that metal artist assembles, it's worth more than whatever Ford slapped together.

Kurt
Click to expand...
Truf!!!!
 

Mustang5L5

That is…until I whipped out my Bissell
Mod Dude
Feb 18, 2001
43,260
17,945
224
Massachusetts
Dec 27, 2019
#106
  • Dec 27, 2019
  • #106
Colonel karthief said:
, I am saying it's not a good idea from a collectable standpoint because 5.0 engines are plentiful but only one belongs in that cobra.
Click to expand...

True, but how would you know?

Give me 5 mins and I can lightly machine down the partial VIN on the block (it's lightly stamped) and apply my own stamps to make a new block "matching numbers". Same with the trans. 5 mins with the gauge pod cluster and I can make it read any mileage you want.

Given that, i'm not going to pay a premium for a matching numbers car vs a clean one with a good healthy 302 in it. Do i want an original car? Yes, but i'm not going to pay $40K for a low mileage premium car over $20K for one with clean, but higher mileage one with a replacement engine.

I place value on workmanship. I don't mind modifications, but they need to be high value mods, and installed correctly. Wiring is a HUGE turn-off for me if i go look at a car and see exposed butt splices in an area which may see water (not like i drive in the rain) or even worse....wirenuts.

4 to 8 swaps don't bother me if done right. That means right wiring harnesses used, right brackets and connections, right hardware, etc. Same with AOD to t5 swaps.



Isn't this thread about TFS170's on a 302 vs 331?


Myself and @95BlueStallion build are pretty similar. He did the TFS170, ported GT40 on a 347 short block. I did the same on a 302. Different cams, but curious to see how the dyno numbers compare.
 
Reactions: 95BlueStallion

General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair
20+ Year Stangneter
Aug 25, 2016
27,935
10,575
203
polk county florida
Dec 27, 2019
#107
  • Dec 27, 2019
  • #107
Mustang5L5 said:
True, but how would you know?

Give me 5 mins and I can lightly machine down the partial VIN on the block (it's lightly stamped) and apply my own stamps to make a new block "matching numbers". Same with the trans. 5 mins with the gauge pod cluster and I can make it read any mileage you want.

Given that, i'm not going to pay a premium for a matching numbers car vs a clean one with a good healthy 302 in it. Do i want an original car? Yes, but i'm not going to pay $40K for a low mileage premium car over $20K for one with clean, but higher mileage one with a replacement engine.

I place value on workmanship. I don't mind modifications, but they need to be high value mods, and installed correctly. Wiring is a HUGE turn-off for me if i go look at a car and see exposed butt splices in an area which may see water (not like i drive in the rain) or even worse....wirenuts.

4 to 8 swaps don't bother me if done right. That means right wiring harnesses used, right brackets and connections, right hardware, etc. Same with AOD to t5 swaps.



Isn't this thread about TFS170's on a 302 vs 331?


Myself and @95BlueStallion build are pretty similar. He did the TFS170, ported GT40 on a 347 short block. I did the same on a 302. Different cams, but curious to see how the dyno numbers compare.
Click to expand...
you are correct and I agree, I also have a distaste for short cuts, like you, specifically in wiring.
this thread started as a TFS170 head thread but the op never responded after they made the first post. It's morphed into something else.
Soooo, how bought those TFS 170's?
 

EX-SSP

Active Member
Apr 16, 2019
81
41
28
New York
Dec 27, 2019
#108
  • Dec 27, 2019
  • #108
Mustang5L5 said:
Myself and @95BlueStallion build are pretty similar. He did the TFS170, ported GT40 on a 347 short block. I did the same on a 302. Different cams, but curious to see how the dyno numbers compare.
Click to expand...
From my set up, I feel I left about 60-70 HP on the table by using the TW170's and N41 cam on my 347. My torque number was pretty good though so I'm not too upset, especially since it's mainly a street car. I'm basing this info on the fact that I've seen properly set up 347's get about 420-430 RWHP where I'm at 360. I could be wrong on those numbers as I'm going by internet postings on the HP numbers for a 347. This is NA, no power adders.
 
Reactions: General karthief

Noobz347

Stangnet Facilities Maint Tech... Er... Janitor
Admin Dude
Jan 4, 1985
43,118
21,288
234
Box behind Walmart
Dec 27, 2019
#109
  • Dec 27, 2019
  • #109
Slightly used garage queen 93 Cobras, low mileage weekend cars with all the documentation, and special venue cars, are worth a really good bit. I've said before that high mileage, well driven 93 Cobras don't command much of a price premium. It's not because they aren't desirable. It's just that that the pool of enthusiasts is rather small and there are (relative to many other collectable cars) a large number of them that have been squirreled away.

That Coyote conversion that Karthief listed above? It's worth more now than it was as a high mileage 93 Cobra


On the heads vs displacement conversation:

Any time you're dealing with air mass and pumps, there is always a bell curve.



Changing the displacement and pulling the air through the same size ports will look something like this.

Eventually, airflow through the port will become so turbulent that more mass isn't possible without an exponential increase in force.

It is of course, a matter of diminishing returns. A point will be reached (a point will always be reached) when the bottleneck prevents you making more power.
 
Reactions: General karthief

95BlueStallion

My assy trans to myself
15 Year Member
Feb 22, 2007
5,126
3,091
214
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Dec 27, 2019
#110
  • Dec 27, 2019
  • #110
EX-SSP said:
From my set up, I feel I left about 60-70 HP on the table by using the TW170's and N41 cam on my 347. My torque number was pretty good though so I'm not too upset, especially since it's mainly a street car. I'm basing this info on the fact that I've seen properly set up 347's get about 420-430 RWHP where I'm at 360. I could be wrong on those numbers as I'm going by internet postings on the HP numbers for a 347. This is NA, no power adders.
Click to expand...

Sh*t man, I feel you there. I only hit 330/350 on my 347, and the HP peak was under 6k rpm. I have been really struggling with not buying some 11R 190 or 205s. Trying to tell myself to focus on the rest of the car and revisit the engine later.
 
Reactions: EX-SSP

95BlueStallion

My assy trans to myself
15 Year Member
Feb 22, 2007
5,126
3,091
214
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Dec 27, 2019
#111
  • Dec 27, 2019
  • #111
Mustang5L5 said:
Myself and @95BlueStallion build are pretty similar. He did the TFS170, ported GT40 on a 347 short block. I did the same on a 302. Different cams, but curious to see how the dyno numbers compare.
Click to expand...

I am really curious about this as well. I am guessing yours won’t be too horribly far off from mine. I feel like my engine is pretty restricted at the moment.
 

General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair
20+ Year Stangneter
Aug 25, 2016
27,935
10,575
203
polk county florida
Dec 27, 2019
#112
  • Dec 27, 2019
  • #112
Noobz347 said:
Slightly used garage queen 93 Cobras, low mileage weekend cars with all the documentation, and special venue cars, are worth a really good bit. I've said before that high mileage, well driven 93 Cobras don't command much of a price premium. It's not because they aren't desirable. It's just that that the pool of enthusiasts is rather small and there are (relative to many other collectable cars) a large number of them that have been squirreled away.

That Coyote conversion that Karthief listed above? It's worth more now than it was as a high mileage 93 Cobra


On the heads vs displacement conversation:

Any time you're dealing with air mass and pumps, there is always a bell curve.



Changing the displacement and pulling the air through the same size ports will look something like this.

Eventually, airflow through the port will become so turbulent that more mass isn't possible without an exponential increase in force.

It is of course, a matter of diminishing returns. A point will be reached (a point will always be reached) when the bottleneck prevents you making more power.
Click to expand...
I totally agree!
and yes, I'm kissing azz. See: https://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/posts/9210643/
 

revhead347

Apparently my ex-husband made that mistake.
20+ Year Stangneter
Jun 14, 2004
9,302
1,644
214
Acworth, GA
Dec 27, 2019
#113
  • Dec 27, 2019
  • #113
Mustang5L5 said:
True, but how would you know?

Give me 5 mins and I can lightly machine down the partial VIN on the block (it's lightly stamped) and apply my own stamps to make a new block "matching numbers". Same with the trans. 5 mins with the gauge pod cluster and I can make it read any mileage you want.

Given that, i'm not going to pay a premium for a matching numbers car vs a clean one with a good healthy 302 in it. Do i want an original car? Yes, but i'm not going to pay $40K for a low mileage premium car over $20K for one with clean, but higher mileage one with a replacement engine.

I place value on workmanship. I don't mind modifications, but they need to be high value mods, and installed correctly. Wiring is a HUGE turn-off for me if i go look at a car and see exposed butt splices in an area which may see water (not like i drive in the rain) or even worse....wirenuts.

4 to 8 swaps don't bother me if done right. That means right wiring harnesses used, right brackets and connections, right hardware, etc. Same with AOD to t5 swaps.



Isn't this thread about TFS170's on a 302 vs 331?


Myself and @95BlueStallion build are pretty similar. He did the TFS170, ported GT40 on a 347 short block. I did the same on a 302. Different cams, but curious to see how the dyno numbers compare.
Click to expand...

This conversation went off the rails a long time ago, so I wouldn't worry about it. I agree with you 100%, nobody is going to know, it's the same block, what difference does it really make? The only reason it matters is because someone believes they have a numbers matching car, and that makes them feel like they have a piece of history. It's like your wife telling you she only slept with 3 guys before you got married, when she actually slept with 37. If she doesn't have herpies, it doesn't matter. It's all in your head.

I'd be interested in the results as well, with the difference in cams put in perspective.

I think wire nuts are actually better than butt connectors.

Kurt
 
Reactions: General karthief

revhead347

Apparently my ex-husband made that mistake.
20+ Year Stangneter
Jun 14, 2004
9,302
1,644
214
Acworth, GA
Dec 27, 2019
#114
  • Dec 27, 2019
  • #114
EX-SSP said:
From my set up, I feel I left about 60-70 HP on the table by using the TW170's and N41 cam on my 347. My torque number was pretty good though so I'm not too upset, especially since it's mainly a street car. I'm basing this info on the fact that I've seen properly set up 347's get about 420-430 RWHP where I'm at 360. I could be wrong on those numbers as I'm going by internet postings on the HP numbers for a 347. This is NA, no power adders.
Click to expand...

The torque number is going to be great, because those heads maintain air velocity at low RPM. Don't get wrapped around the wire about the HP numbers you read about on the internet. The 347 stroker engines making more than 400rwhp are in the 5% at best. If someone makes more than 400 to the tire with their stroker, the entire internet knows about it. The 95% that don't make that kind of power, get crickets.

Kurt
 
Reactions: EX-SSP and General karthief

Mustang5L5

That is…until I whipped out my Bissell
Mod Dude
Feb 18, 2001
43,260
17,945
224
Massachusetts
Dec 27, 2019
#115
  • Dec 27, 2019
  • #115
[QUOTE="revhead347, post: 9210692, member: 69153]

I think wire nuts are actually better than butt connectors.

Kurt
[/QUOTE]

They are, but I prefer solder and heat shrink for electrical connections these days
 

a91what

SendMeUrDataLog
10 Year Member
Apr 6, 2011
10,739
6,721
214
Hillsborough county
Dec 27, 2019
#116
  • Dec 27, 2019
  • #116
I want to know what you guys are taking I need some.
I do all manner of electrical projects, and am an electrician. A properly done and heat shrunk buttsplice is far superior to a wire nut in an automotive application.
 

Mustang5L5

That is…until I whipped out my Bissell
Mod Dude
Feb 18, 2001
43,260
17,945
224
Massachusetts
Dec 27, 2019
#117
  • Dec 27, 2019
  • #117
Key phrase is “properly done”. I have seen plenty that were not. Can’t tell you how many of those blue or red parts store butt crimps that were improperly crimped I’ve pulled apart to find corroded to hell inside.
 

a91what

SendMeUrDataLog
10 Year Member
Apr 6, 2011
10,739
6,721
214
Hillsborough county
Dec 27, 2019
#118
  • Dec 27, 2019
  • #118
When I see a wire nut in an automotive application I immediately think 'has no idea what they are doing' a wire nut has no way to be sealed from moisture ect. (Well they do but most wont do that properly)
If you dont clean older wire properly it may not take the solder joint.
The reality is if the correct tool and splice size is used a butt splice is a simple reliable connection.
 
Reactions: 96pushrod

General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair
20+ Year Stangneter
Aug 25, 2016
27,935
10,575
203
polk county florida
Dec 27, 2019
#119
  • Dec 27, 2019
  • #119
I've taken the plastic cover off a butt connector and then solder the wires inside it. Cover it with heat shrink and done.
 

Mustang5L5

That is…until I whipped out my Bissell
Mod Dude
Feb 18, 2001
43,260
17,945
224
Massachusetts
Dec 27, 2019
#120
  • Dec 27, 2019
  • #120
I don’t think you’ll find anyone to disagree with you aboit wirenuts in an automotive setting.
 
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