Fuel 19lbs EV6 fuel injectors, what fuel pressure???

[Bullitt347]

Take the snow plow off the front and this aero brick at 7,800 lbs get 12-13 mpg highway...

And like this with a 10K trailer attached towed from Seattle Wa to Bangor Maine and averaged 8.8 mpg on the 3,200 mile trip across the country.

 

[PonyGTrider]

Yeah... I'm getting the point where I'm waiting for the punch-line.

Narrow band O2 sensors are dumb creatures.

They switch between:

off-scale high
off-scale low
unswitched

Too much time in either mode, throws a code.
No signal, throws a code.

So, either this car is running rich as eff and the EEC is disregarding the inputs (arbitrarily on its own) or gas is mysteriously returning to the mother ship.

I mean... I've seen poorly matched combos suffer mileage issues but this seems to be pretty extreme.

Do you have a trunk full of turbos or nitrous oxide bottles or something getting you to 1000 HP? LoL


When I first installed my Kenne Bell onto the (then) new stroker combo, it ran. 42 lb injectors and a MAF calibrated for 42s. It ran like actually. I drove it over the Allegheny mountains and got [horrible] fuel mileage but I mean, I could definitely tell it wasn't happy.

A tune brought the whole thing around. Fuel mileage --and-- drivability were drastically improved.

Your story though:
"I got no codes, it runs and drives great, I'm not leaking anything, it doesn't stumble, but if I rev it between gas stations, I'm going to need a tow."

I paraphrased.

Makes no sense


Out of curiosity, would you describe your fuel system from tank to injector?

I know exactly what you're saying, sometimes I laugh at my situation and sometimes I get really upset and frustrated that I just want to get rid of my "old boat" but then then I tell to my sellf "Self you can't give up on this one " and seriously I cant give up. I tried every f*** thing and can't resolve this mistery.
My fuel system is absolutely basic; 190 lph BBK fuel pump, in line typical fuel filter (Clean), 19lbs EV6 injectors (Ford 0 280 255 700 F4SE-A1B), and Kirban AFPR that's it.
Just one thing is winding through my head. As you've noticed I'm located in México, I absolutely know that fuels here aren't the best quality. There are two octane grades here 87 and 92. I use the 87 octane and never heard a pinging or detonation even at 18 degree timing I was running, right now i'm at 14 degrees. so is it possible that the ECU is in a way compensating for that questionable fuel quality and is it over-fuling???? (Even though there is co carbon on the plugs) I've used the 92 octane fuel but didn't see any difference in performance or fuel economy. Would it be reasonable to add octane aditives as for a test and by how much should I increase it?

Yeah... I'm getting the point where I'm waiting for the punch-line.

Narrow band O2 sensors are dumb creatures.

They switch between:

off-scale high
off-scale low
unswitched

Too much time in either mode, throws a code.
No signal, throws a code.

So, either this car is running rich as eff and the EEC is disregarding the inputs (arbitrarily on its own) or gas is mysteriously returning to the mother ship.

I mean... I've seen poorly matched combos suffer mileage issues but this seems to be pretty extreme.

Do you have a trunk full of turbos or nitrous oxide bottles or something getting you to 1000 HP? LoL


When I first installed my Kenne Bell onto the (then) new stroker combo, it ran. 42 lb injectors and a MAF calibrated for 42s. It ran like actually. I drove it over the Allegheny mountains and got [horrible] fuel mileage but I mean, I could definitely tell it wasn't happy.

A tune brought the whole thing around. Fuel mileage --and-- drivability were drastically improved.

Your story though:
"I got no codes, it runs and drives great, I'm not leaking anything, it doesn't stumble, but if I rev it between gas stations, I'm going to need a tow."

I paraphrased.

Makes no sense


Out of curiosity, would you describe your fuel system from tank to injector?

I know exactly what you're saying, sometimes I laugh at my situation and sometimes I get really upset and frustrated that I just want to get rid of my "old boat" but then then I tell to my sellf "Self you can't give up on this one " and seriously I cant give up. I tried every f*** thing and can't resolve this mistery.
My fuel system is absolutely basic; 190 lph BBK fuel pump, in line typical fuel filter (Clean), 19lbs EV6 injectors (Ford 0 280 255 700 F4SE-A1B), and Kirban AFPR that's it.
Just one thing is winding through my head. As you've noticed I'm located in México, I absolutely know that fuels here aren't the best quality. There are two octane grades here 87 and 92. I use the 87 octane and never heard a pinging or detonation even at 18 degree timing I was running, right now i'm at 14 degrees. so is it possible that the ECU is in a way compensating for that questionable fuel quality and is it over-fuling???? (Even though there is co carbon on the plugs) I've used the 92 octane fuel but didn't see any difference in performance or fuel economy as for to pay the extra $. Would it be reasonable to add octane aditives as for a test and by how much should I increase it?

 

[PonyGTrider]

Take the snow plow off the front and this aero brick at 7,800 lbs get 12-13 mpg highway...

And like this with a 10K trailer attached towed from Seattle Wa to Bangor Maine and averaged 8.8 mpg on the 3,200 mile trip across the country.

Nice Rig!!

 

[Noobz347]

For s and giggles, try backing your initial timing down to 10* BTC.

 

[AeroCoupe]

Do you know what the composition of the fuel is? Would be curious to know if Mexico requires the ethanol like the US does. I get a couple miles to the gallon better on pure gas vs the 10% ethanol.

 

[PonyGTrider]

For s and giggles, try backing your initial timing down to 10* BTC.

I already did that no difference. Acording to my readings the timing for my twisted wedge heads and TFS stage 1 cam supposed to be set to at least 14 deg, well I tried 10 12 14 16 and 18 but MPG is still horrendous.

 

[PonyGTrider]

Do you know what the composition of the fuel is? Would be curious to know if Mexico requires the ethanol like the US does. I get a couple miles to the gallon better on pure gas vs the 10% ethanol.

To be honest I haven't done any research and the concept sounds interesting. I will do that. Thanks

 

[AeroCoupe]

I’ve run my tuned F150 on E-85 and it gets about half the mileage it does on 87 octane. The more ethanol the gas has the worse the fuel mileage.

 

[rednotch]

I know exactly what you're saying, sometimes I laugh at my situation and sometimes I get really upset and frustrated that I just want to get rid of my "old boat" but then then I tell to my sellf "Self you can't give up on this one " and seriously I cant give up. I tried every f*** thing and can't resolve this mistery.
My fuel system is absolutely basic; 190 lph BBK fuel pump, in line typical fuel filter (Clean), 19lbs EV6 injectors (Ford 0 280 255 700 F4SE-A1B), and Kirban AFPR that's it.
Just one thing is winding through my head. As you've noticed I'm located in México, I absolutely know that fuels here aren't the best quality. There are two octane grades here 87 and 92. I use the 87 octane and never heard a pinging or detonation even at 18 degree timing I was running, right now i'm at 14 degrees. so is it possible that the ECU is in a way compensating for that questionable fuel quality and is it over-fuling???? (Even though there is co carbon on the plugs) I've used the 92 octane fuel but didn't see any difference in performance or fuel economy. Would it be reasonable to add octane aditives as for a test and by how much should I increase it?

I know exactly what you're saying, sometimes I laugh at my situation and sometimes I get really upset and frustrated that I just want to get rid of my "old boat" but then then I tell to my sellf "Self you can't give up on this one " and seriously I cant give up. I tried every f*** thing and can't resolve this mistery.
My fuel system is absolutely basic; 190 lph BBK fuel pump, in line typical fuel filter (Clean), 19lbs EV6 injectors (Ford 0 280 255 700 F4SE-A1B), and Kirban AFPR that's it.
Just one thing is winding through my head. As you've noticed I'm located in México, I absolutely know that fuels here aren't the best quality. There are two octane grades here 87 and 92. I use the 87 octane and never heard a pinging or detonation even at 18 degree timing I was running, right now i'm at 14 degrees. so is it possible that the ECU is in a way compensating for that questionable fuel quality and is it over-fuling???? (Even though there is co carbon on the plugs) I've used the 92 octane fuel but didn't see any difference in performance or fuel economy as for to pay the extra $. Would it be reasonable to add octane aditives as for a test and by how much should I increase it?

My beater, is a stock block 347 with more gear 3.73 on a 25" street tire most of the time, old tko trans, more cam, stock a9l running it and an old pro-m for 36lb injectors. No tune, no egr or emissions stuff, egr is plugged in but no vaccum so its not even getting adaptive part throttle strategy with the computer never seeing the egr move. Run the same auto lite 24's in cheapy China clone heads, Its not happy on really cold starts and its on the richer side at idle and cruising, could definitely benefit from a tune or more modern efi system. Full weight car with nice cold A/C. It is no where near as bad on gas as your car, like not even close. I also run it on the cheapest 87 I can when I'm not taking it out to screw around but I keep the base timing low. NJ has been E10 for years and I think that's still the limit for Mexico on ethanol blends for gasoline, lots of states are now allowing E15 which will be worse for mileage.

At this point I'd ask if someone is stealing your gas or if its cooking off in the Mexico heat.. You said no leaks so I'll assume the filler neck gasket is good along with the rest of the tank but the mileage and what your posting just doesnt add up to me. Posts go back years for the same issue so you gotta be tracking fuel in and fuel out for mileags vs relying on the factory gauge. Mines far from accurate below a 1/4 tank these days with a repo sending unit.

No codes, so no chance its seeing one bank learn with a mixed up harness location and over fueling, plugs look pretty damn clean too. Are you sitting in traffic for hours each tank?

One of your old posts you said you had one of those egr resister delete plugs, I can't tell from the engine bay pic if the egr if functioning but it's still there.. A working egr system does help a bit with fuel economy and adaptive strategy when not at wot. It's should be no where near as drastic as what your seeing though. if you still have the resistor to trick the ecu, try removing it and hooking up the factory electronics on the egr so the ecu knows its either working or not, Most twisted wedge heads have the egr port same for the tfs intake. You said you don't notice any ping but If the ecu thinks everything's ok and adapetive strategy is working your getting away with a ton of timing on 87 in load situations, try setting it to 10* base if or when the egr system is fully working.

 

[CAMTWO1070]

Heres what I learned about the A9L computer and that its out of its territory with anything but its recommended alternator as the extra amps and power increases injector duty cycle..

Most think that when going bigger a larger fuelpump is also needed and that the stock fuel relays and wiring is sub par for the new combo...

When you do that the extra lph flow increases the amount of fuel the fuelinjector sprays at the same duty cycle then the closed loop adaptives go haywire tring to make sense....

I have a 170amp alternator and a 255lph pump and I had to do some heavy duty changes to the injector pulsewidth ..




When you change camshafts theres this lil thing called valve overlap and valve timing events for opening and closing...I have a 351w w/ roller camshaft thqat also came stock in the explorers too and the overlap isnt as extreme as a mustang camshft so I had to change my injector timing events to 380...





The A9L is set to spray the injectors at a certain degees given the camshaft design specs...... which at idle is 352 degrees..





When you look at the TFS stage 1 camshaft the valve timing must be changed or youll get a constant wet intake manifold due to fuel puddling and reversion when pulled up from active cylinders...





The only way youll be able to get what you have to adjust better is to get a chip because the adaptives can only adjust up to 12% + and - and the setup you have maxes the adaptives ability to help out totally...

I have mine set to 24% but can go as high as 47%............

Left side is my value and the right is a stock A9L



.
Good Luck

 

[PonyGTrider]

My beater, is a stock block 347 with more gear 3.73 on a 25" street tire most of the time, old tko trans, more cam, stock a9l running it and an old pro-m for 36lb injectors. No tune, no egr or emissions stuff, egr is plugged in but no vaccum so its not even getting adaptive part throttle strategy with the computer never seeing the egr move. Run the same auto lite 24's in cheapy China clone heads, Its not happy on really cold starts and its on the richer side at idle and cruising, could definitely benefit from a tune or more modern efi system. Full weight car with nice cold A/C. It is no where near as bad on gas as your car, like not even close. I also run it on the cheapest 87 I can when I'm not taking it out to screw around but I keep the base timing low. NJ has been E10 for years and I think that's still the limit for Mexico on ethanol blends for gasoline, lots of states are now allowing E15 which will be worse for mileage.

At this point I'd ask if someone is stealing your gas or if its cooking off in the Mexico heat.. You said no leaks so I'll assume the filler neck gasket is good along with the rest of the tank but the mileage and what your posting just doesnt add up to me. Posts go back years for the same issue so you gotta be tracking fuel in and fuel out for mileags vs relying on the factory gauge. Mines far from accurate below a 1/4 tank these days with a repo sending unit.

No codes, so no chance its seeing one bank learn with a mixed up harness location and over fueling, plugs look pretty damn clean too. Are you sitting in traffic for hours each tank?

One of your old posts you said you had one of those egr resister delete plugs, I can't tell from the engine bay pic if the egr if functioning but it's still there.. A working egr system does help a bit with fuel economy and adaptive strategy when not at wot. It's should be no where near as drastic as what your seeing though. if you still have the resistor to trick the ecu, try removing it and hooking up the factory electronics on the egr so the ecu knows its either working or not, Most twisted wedge heads have the egr port same for the tfs intake. You said you don't notice any ping but If the ecu thinks everything's ok and adapetive strategy is working your getting away with a ton of timing on 87 in load situations, try setting it to 10* base if or when the egr system is fully working.

Thanks for sharing your extended and interesting comment and you’re right the whole facts about my combo don’t add up. It is like joking or lying about the it, is like by mistake I was running 30 lbs injectors with a stock MAF. But all what I disclosed on my setup are real facts, that’s why I’m searching for some answers.

Right now I’m returning from a test drive after I adjusted the fuel pressure with my Kirban fuel pressure regulator to 30 psi with the vacuum ON, drove it hard not redlining it but hard and it ran really good with no pinging. There was no check engine for possible lean condition.
At the bottom is the FUEL PRESSURE GAUGE I’m using which correlates with my fuel pressure gauge tool. The reading on the gauge is not the actual pressure, it is just residual pressure after shutoff .
Any ideas or comments?

 

[Noobz347]

You need the ability to data log.

What else is there to discuss without that data?

Time to find a dyno near you.

 

[PonyGTrider]

Heres what I learned about the A9L computer and that its out of its territory with anything but its recommended alternator as the extra amps and power increases injector duty cycle..

Most think that when going bigger a larger fuelpump is also needed and that the stock fuel relays and wiring is sub par for the new combo...

When you do that the extra lph flow increases the amount of fuel the fuelinjector sprays at the same duty cycle then the closed loop adaptives go haywire tring to make sense....

I have a 170amp alternator and a 255lph pump and I had to do some heavy duty changes to the injector pulsewidth ..




When you change camshafts theres this lil thing called valve overlap and valve timing events for opening and closing...I have a 351w w/ roller camshaft thqat also came stock in the explorers too and the overlap isnt as extreme as a mustang camshft so I had to change my injector timing events to 380...





The A9L is set to spray the injectors at a certain degees given the camshaft design specs...... which at idle is 352 degrees..





When you look at the TFS stage 1 camshaft the valve timing must be changed or youll get a constant wet intake manifold due to fuel puddling and reversion when pulled up from active cylinders...





The only way youll be able to get what you have to adjust better is to get a chip because the adaptives can only adjust up to 12% + and - and the setup you have maxes the adaptives ability to help out totally...

I have mine set to 24% but can go as high as 47%............

Left side is my value and the right is a stock A9L



.
Good Luck

Wow this is a bit more complex, so in short you’re saying that a chip might fix my extremely low MPG ?
It will
Be interesting to pick the right request with the correct facts for a chip to be burned any suggestions on how to order that chip? Will you be willing to guide me on how to order that chip or direct me where to get it from???
My email address is: [email protected]

Thanks man

 

[PonyGTrider]

You need the ability to data log.

What else is there to discuss without that data?

Time to find a dyno near you.

I know what you’re saying and it will be a bit less than impossible to have access to one…

 

[Noobz347]

LM-2: Handheld Digital Wideband Air/Fuel Ratio Meter & Datalogger, DUAL (2) O2, ULTIMATE SHOP Kit

LM-2 Dual Ult Shop

www.innovatemotorsports.com

 

[AeroCoupe]

I will say that there are hundreds of combos out there similar to yours running on a stock ECU, with an G3 alternator, larger fuel pump, aftermarket ignition, etc and they run very well.

You have swapped processors, swapped MAF’s, ramped fuel pressure up and down, run the timing from 10 to 18 degrees, and run both 87 and 93 octane fuel. The one thing that you have not done is verify the injectors are in fact flowing 19 lb/hr. Depending on what you have available to you it’s have the injectors flowed on a bench, find a set of known injectors, or get a wide band O2.

 

[PonyGTrider]

I will say that there are hundreds of combos out there similar to yours running on a stock ECU, with an G3 alternator, larger fuel pump, aftermarket ignition, etc and they run very well.

You have swapped processors, swapped MAF’s, ramped fuel pressure up and down, run the timing from 10 to 18 degrees, and run both 87 and 93 octane fuel. The one thing that you have not done is verify the injectors are in fact flowing 19 lb/hr. Depending on what you have available to you it’s have the injectors flowed on a bench, find a set of known injectors, or get a wide band O2.

Yep I’ve done almost everything except that. According to the injectors specs those 19 lbs injectors actually flow 20 lbs @ 43.5 psi fuel pressure but no I haven’t verified how much they actually flow, but don’t the spark plugs would be full of carbon if that was the case? Just thinking out loud…..
In any case I will remove and take them for a flow bench test. Thank you

 

[PonyGTrider]

Like I mentioned I dropped the fuel pressure to 30 psi and took off. Very strong did no noticed any lack of fuel, no hesitation , no buckling, no lack of power, and no check engine indicating a lean condition. So how low in the fuel pressure can go before the ECU reacting to a lean condition with an error code????

 

[PonyGTrider]

Like I mentioned I dropped the fuel pressure to 30 psi and took off. Very strong did no noticed any lack of fuel, no hesitation , no buckling, no lack of power, and no check engine indicating a lean condition. So how low in the fuel pressure can go before the ECU reacting to a lean condition with an error code????

And by de way I’m running a 3G alternator but it has a 200Amp upgrades…. Will somehow it affects my fuel delivery system????

 

[AeroCoupe]

The bigger alternators will typically charge at 14.3-14.4 volts just like the stock unit. The higher amperage helps with loads added to the electrical system like stereo amplifiers, electric fans, aftermarket ignitions, etc. This will keep the voltage from dipping which keeps the fuel pump delivering at a more steady volume so they actually help with fuel delivery.

Also, you should be removing the vacuum line and plugging it when setting the fuel pressure at idle.