Build Thread 1978 Mercury Cyclone. The pig is in the pen.

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#4,862
95BlueStallion said:
That is all good stuff Mikey. May just need to ditch a couple of the cheap chinee parts to safely get your car there without blowing it up first.
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Naww,...... My turbo guy said that as long as you take the time to disassemble the things...... Clean, and deburr the housings of all of the potential sharp edges and crap the left over from the casting process, and lube the valve stem w/ anti seize,...It should work OK.
That rear gate is a giant pain in the ass to remove,...but I'm gonna do that. Once both are off, I'll rig up some way to pressurize the bottom port through a regulator to see where they start to open. Then I'll know if I put the wrong damn spring in there.
 
#4,864
a91what said:
Yes. It will also change the fueling in a percentage based on the change.

So if you are getting 12 and the table is set to 12 when you change to 11.8 it will add whatever percentage you need to get 11.8 without any change to the ve table
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Good,....I have no clue looking at VE numbers, so I left that stuff alone, and made changes just to the timing and AFR tables only.
Like I said above, I'm gonna disable the car and check the gates now that I'm close enough to beat on this thing. I don't want the car to show me some obscene boost spike like it did w/ Collin, so a little pain will be worth the gain.
 
#4,865
Davedacarpainter said:
I'm still excited for you that you were out frying those big ass 315's. Even if you sounded like an angry tractor doing it!:nice:
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You'd be surprised. Things change when the car sees 5k RPM. It sounds....... "familiar".

It sounds like every other time I've heard tires screaming "What tha. WAIT!! STOP!! OH WHAT THE BLOODY HELL IS HAPPENING!!"

And I'm sayin.:burnout:
 
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#4,866
Revelation time!!!

I figured since Collins @hoopty5.0 discovering that he can't run COP in a true config mode, @90sickfox is trying to figure out where to put his coil packs,....I'll share my latest....

When you figure out compression ration, there are online calculators out there to make the process just a matter of plugging in a few numbers.
A couple of days ago when I was bi tchin about possible head chamber shape as being my potential problem for the detonation I was experiencing I posted the situation on a couple of different sites.

In the ensuing days I get asked by some guy on a different site what my CR is..... Uhhhh,......I only think I know. I think it's 9:1.

I'm almost positive I had the chambers cc'd, but I don't talk about that anywhere in this thread. It's been so long,...I forgot.
The piston guy woulda had to have that in order to build the piston. I spoke to him yesterday when asking about how chamber shape contributes to detonation, and since I had him on the phone, asked for him to confirm my CR just to be sure.

He looks it up: Piston dish is 11cc's, bore is 3.700, stroke is 3.91, gasket bore is 3.800,...chamber volume is 66cc's punch, punch, click, click, click........9.14 :1
Where did we get that chamber volume number from? HellifIknow. I'm hoping like mad that it came from the machine shop as a result of a head cc test....but I can't remember.

Trying to read what the stock chamber for this head has that chamber at 50cc's. FIFTY CC's!!!!!!! do you know how much the compression goes up to if it's 50 cc's? Try 11:1.

Not turbo friendly.

Now I polished those chambers, and I unshrouded the valves as well, so I added something to that. But trying to get info on an Aussie head that is 36 years old is a little hard, even with the internet but I got that Aussie guy over at FEP,.....he'll let me know here by this evening I'd imagine. (depends on how hard he celebrated....It's NY's day there now)

You'd think I'd have that written down somewhere.....
 
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#4,868
A5literMan said:
Uhh..Houston we might have a problem:eek:

Do you have access to e85 in the area? Is the fuel system compatible to e85? You could run that and adjust the tune to see if that helped?
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I'm waiting to hear from dude....this may be another one of my auto-hypochondriac moments.
I just can't believe that I would've not verified chamber size when custom ordering pistons.
 
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#4,869
madmike1157 said:
Good,....I have no clue looking at VE numbers, so I left that stuff alone, and made changes just to the timing and AFR tables only.
Like I said above, I'm gonna disable the car and check the gates now that I'm close enough to beat on this thing. I don't want the car to show me some obscene boost spike like it did w/ Collin, so a little pain will be worth the gain.
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Ve numbers don't really mean anything.... they are just a numerical placeholder for fuel amount based off of the injector size and AFR table...
So if you have a number of 90 in the ve table taking away 9 to equal 81 that would be a reduction of 10% fuel.
 
#4,870
That would not be good if its 11:1 with 11psi of boost....I doubt it is because we would have seen carnage after the boost spike.

I'm surprised that no one has come up with a way to check compression with the heads on the car. Seems like you could inject fluid or jell into a cylinder through the spark plug hole and measure the cc at top dead center. If you know the stroke it would give you info to calculate CR. The numbers may not be exact but the variable would be in the piston size....whether it's over 10, 20, 30, or so on.

It would take a tool that could seal in the spark plug hole. It would have to be able to pull a vacuum on the cylinder and then inject oil and note the cc measurement. Coolant system fill tools already do this...they vacuum the system to remove air bubbles and then the vacuum sucks the coolant in filling every crevice. In theory, the same thing would work to measure chamber cc while the head is installed, provided the valves and rings seal well enough. The oil could then be removed and the residual would be burned in the combustion cycle during start up. It would be " Mad Mikes Chamber CC Checker ". See what happens when I drink.
 
#4,871
90sickfox said:
That would not be good if its 11:1 with 11psi of boost....I doubt it is because we would have seen carnage after the boost spike.

I'm surprised that no one has come up with a way to check compression with the heads on the car. Seems like you could inject fluid or jell into a cylinder through the spark plug hole and measure the cc at top dead center. If you know the stroke it would give you info to calculate CR. The numbers may not be exact but the variable would be in the piston size....whether it's over 10, 20, 30, or so on.

It would take a tool that could seal in the spark plug hole. It would have to be able to pull a vacuum on the cylinder and then inject oil and note the cc measurement. Coolant system fill tools already do this...they vacuum the system to remove air bubbles and then the vacuum sucks the coolant in filling every crevice. In theory, the same thing would work to measure chamber cc while the head is installed, provided the valves and rings seal well enough. The oil could then be removed and the residual would be burned in the combustion cycle during start up. It would be " Mad Mikes Chamber CC Checker ". See what happens when I drink.
Click to expand...

I have been told that there is such a tool used to check engine cubic inches during tech in the big time racing world. I have never seen it myself, and I am sure it is somewhat exspensive.

Joe
 
#4,872
Ok, my Aussie engineer guy came back to me. ( what is it with you engineer types? It took him a novel to tell me that the factory, unmolested chamber is between 53, and 56 cc's.)Figures i added 3 ccs to that by the smoothing/unshrouding ritual, commensurately bringing the chamber volume up to 56-59 cc's.

Effectively showing me an all too high compression ratio between 9.8, to 10.23 :1

So......now we know why it seemed to be pinging N/A, and full on detonating at 10p.s.i.

Now all of this is still conjecture, I may have actually been prudent, and had my machine shop cc the head, and give me those chamber volumes,...but like I said.....I can't remember. I'm gonna call them tomorrow on the off chance that they kept records (I doubt that too).

It is what it is though,..that leaves me w/ several options:

1.Cap the boost to 5 p.s.i. And quickly become bored w/ the limited experience.
2. Convert the thing over to E85. My fuel system is supposedly compatible,...The pump and regulator is, but the lines are aluminum. I have those 60 pound injectors that I could swap in.
I don't know how E 85 acts a fuel,..does it share the same BS issues that full methanol does?
Will there will be corrosion in the lines maybe? Water in the oil?
There are 2 (I think) stations in this city that have the gas. I don't see that as a big problem since this isn't a daily driver,..but......yeah it's still a pain in the ass.
3. Install a water meth kit that is switched on at +5 p.s.i., and let the thing honk to 10 p.s.i ( we all know the down side to that)
Leave it alone, run the 5 p.s.i. until I can confirm actual chamber volume. (And that will be a long time,..as I don't intend to tear this engine down) And if I tear it down,...and that chamber is indeed 66cc's.....ooooooooo there'll be one pi ssed off sumbtch in mike's garage.

Monday I'm taking the gates off and checking them for opening pressure (since I'm about one inch from blowing the p is outta this engine,)..I guess I'll err on the side of caution,..and make sure these freakin things OPEN at 5 p.s.i.

Also will put the tail up in the air, and check my rear end ratio ( I'm gonna end up w/ freakin 3.73's or numerically higher,...the engine is spinning to high at interstate speed)
And I'm gonna de-rig my fuel delivery lines that come out of the tank and feed the pre-filter. Right now, there is a -8 hose bent 180 degrees serving that purpose,..I now have a 180 degree AN fitting that will clean that up.

So,...more of "Mike's life as usual".....just lookin for stuff to do over.....again.
 
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#4,873
You were talking about putting stronger rods in a little bit ago... So stronger rods and new pistons in 2017 for the Monster? Then enjoy your high boost. Obviously not ideal to tear it apart again, but better than that E85/Water Meth fiasco.
 
#4,874
95BlueStallion said:
You were talking about putting stronger rods in a little bit ago... So stronger rods and new pistons in 2017 for the Monster? Then enjoy your high boost. Obviously not ideal to tear it apart again, but better than that E85/Water Meth fiasco.
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Iiii don't know,.....e 85 runs really cool....this is alabama,....the benefit could be an engine that will not get hot unless i want it to.
 
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#4,877
madmike1157 said:
Not talkin about straight methanol. Ive been there and done that too. Im wondering how dirty E 85 is?
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Ok,..(stupid me) Looks like E85 is actually a cleaner fuel than gas w/ regard to carbon and the typical byproducts of combustion. The only thing I HAVE to do is re activate the output that will allow the water pump to cycle on and off w/ engine temp. (right now tied in as a key switched device).
Once air starts moving through the radiator now, the engine temp drops steadily. E 85 will cause the engine to run cooler, so that problem will compound. If I re-configure the pump to cycle on/off with temp, I'll be able to keep that in check.
 
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#4,878
madmike1157 said:
Not talkin about straight methanol. Ive been there and done that too. Im wondering how dirty E 85 is?
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Pump e85 is typically ethanol mixed with :poo:ty bottom of the barrel gasoline. That's why it's $2 and the name brand versions are $9. With that said, I still wouldn't call it dirty. if you're able to run e85, that's a great route to take. I don't think 9.8:1 is a concerning compression ratio to begin with (mines 9.9:1 fwiw) but it would give you some cushion. I've never been interested in meth injection. Between the maintenance, added components and the corrosive nature, e85 is the better option when readily available.
You could even wire in a flex fuel sensor pretty easily to account for either switching between pump and e85 or optimizing the tune for varying ethanol content (the sensors like $600 but can be found for $50 on eBay, I will do this some day)

MS has a great write-up for it.

This is all without mentioning the power potential you'll gain.
 
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#4,880
tannerc91gt said:
Pump e85 is typically ethanol mixed with ****ty bottom of the barrel gasoline. That's why it's $2 and the name brand versions are $9. With that said, I still wouldn't call it dirty. if you're able to run e85, that's a great route to take. I don't think 9.8:1 is a concerning compression ratio to begin with (mines 9.9:1 fwiw) but it would give you some cushion. I've never been interested in meth injection. Between the maintenance, added components and the corrosive nature, e85 is the better option when readily available.
You could even wire in a flex fuel sensor pretty easily to account for either switching between pump and e85 or optimizing the tune for varying ethanol content (the sensors like $600 but can be found for $50 on eBay, I will do this some day)

MS has a great write-up for it.

This is all without mentioning the power potential you'll gain.
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Thank you sir,..In Alabama it's actually below 2 bucks. Premium is now at 2.80? Premium is 93 octane here, and E85 is between 100-105. It seems like a no-brainer.

But I'm gonna keep messing with the current deal as you have mentioned because I'm still not sure that I didn't have the chambers checked for size by the machine shop. Hopefully I'll know that tomorrow, or Tuesday.
 
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