5.0 vs 4.6
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Speeds8erM-1 said:Well apparently bolton for bolton the 4.6 isnt getting away like you say. You could always BUILD both completely but the 4.6 loses again.
Again, compare them to a similar weighted 94/95 5.0L. Then we will do bolt-on for bolt-on. I know our 98 gt isn't going to loose at full weight
You keep trying to spin off your stories and strecth them to get your desired length, kind of like a fishing story of the coast of Florida
You really must have bad weather when these guys race or bad drivers, I assume the later...because those cars aren't pulling those slower of mph's down here.
matt93notch said:all i know is i would be pissed if i owned a 03 gt with bolts on, when a 93 5.0 with bolt ons runs almost identical times and side by side in races!!!!
Not me...I would know that I get better fuel mileage, more reliable (age), sound better, sound system is better, better interior, smoother, more power stock for stock (35-40rwhp advantage with 5spd), brakes better, handles better, etc...etc...you know the rest
It isn't all about track times...enyawix said:
Originally Posted by Bill Putnam
Five Components to a 12 second NA GT
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Before reading on I just want to say that this is basically geared towards drag racers not your average enthusiast looking for 12s on street tires with no real changes to the car. Not that it can’t be applied to someone looking for that but this is geared more towards the people out there looking for 12s and willing to work for it.
1.) Power – If you listen to some old school drag racers they may say you need at least 300+RWHP to hit 12’s in most cars. In some heavier cars that may be true but fact is suspensions are more refined these days and cars don’t weight 4,000 lbs. Most PI headed cars will hit the 245-255RWHP mark with basic mods (Pulleys, Timing Adjuster or chip, O/R H or X, K&N or other type of high flow filter and although not a power mod…gears 4.10s or 4.30s). For a bolt on GT this is enough power to get the car into the 12s after you follow the other steps. Keep in mind more power will make it easier to reach your goal or help offset more weight (see next section) but it can be done with less.
2.) Weight - You basic 5 speed coupe without driver weights 3250lbs. So with an average driver weighing about 180lbs that puts your race weight at 3430lbs. At that weight and a power to weight ratio of .075 you would need 258RWHP to hit 12’s. Power to weight is the power of your car (rear wheel) divided by race weight of the car. Using my car when I broke into the 12’s first time I was making 246RWHP and had a race weight of 3250lb, which worked out to a .075 power to weight ratio or .075RWHP per pound of the car. From what I’ve seen a car can get into the 12s with a .075 to .080 P/W ratio. So if your race weight is 3430lbs then 3430 * .075 = 257.25RWHP. As long as you keep this ratio in the .075 to .080 range you are fine plus keep in mind you can drop weight instead of adding power. An example of this is a car with a 3000lb race weight could break into the 12s with 225RWHP (close to stock power on a GT).
Now I’m sure some of you are asking about weight reduction. Basic weight reduction would be rear seat delete, removal of spare tire, jack, tire iron…these would knock a good 70-80lbs from the car. Add a set of welds or light weight race wheels and you are looking at another 60-80lbs. For more information about specific weights and more ideas look here… http://users.adelphia.net/~mustang-9...0Reduction.htm
3.) Suspension - I feel that this component has the most leeway so to speak. I’ve seen near stock suspension cars get good weight transfer. I honestly believe a car that meets the other requirements could hit 12s on the stock suspension. However those of you that want to get an edge should read on. First thing I would do is look at springs since most of us want a better stance but still want weight transfer. For that look at fox body 4cyl front springs I usually look to the junkyards for these but most buy stock replacements at a local shop (avoid Moog brand though they are taller than stock specs). For the rear end I go with fox body v8 rear springs cut anywhere from a ¼ to 1 coil to level out the car. Just keep in mind that it’s easier to cut too little than too much spring.
Next I would highly recommend a pair of sub-frame connectors welded in to tie the chassis together. Hard launches on slicks will twist the body and this will help keep it straight. Last piece to really help out is struts I went with Lakewoods because they are readily available and affordable but adjustables can be used as well if you have the budget for them. 70/30s and 90/10’s both work well and I stick with fox body specific struts since the car is lowered. Fox body specific springs are ¾” shorter than stock SN-95 springs so the lower fox body specific struts are shorter.
4.) Traction – I’ll cut to the chase here and just skip over street tires and drag radials and go right to slicks. Not that it can’t be done on these tires but it will take more power, more patience and much more writing on my part so we’ll stick to slicks. Cars in this weight range and power level only need a 26x8.5x15 ET Drag for traction. It’s close to stock tire height and is more than enough to make our cars hook on the track. A better suspension will result in better 60 foot times but even on stock suspension a good burnout on slicks will not spin unless the track is poorly prepped or fluids are on the track. Some people opt for cheap steel wheels which I don’t necessarily recommend since you are keeping extra weight on the axles. This opens you up for possible breakage so I would go with a weld wheel instead even if it’s a pair of used ones for track only purposes. Regardless a 15x8 with 5 on 4.5 bolt pattern and 5.5 backspacing will fit perfect, or if you insist on a wider tire like a 10” then a 15x10 with 5 on 4.5 bolt pattern and 6.5 backspacing will also work on our cars.
5.) Practice – This is one component that you can’t buy at any store, you can learn it from a text book and you can’t ask your friends about you simply have to get out there. I’m not saying everyone should be like me and hit every test and tune but don’t expect to make one trip and bingo your in the 12’s. I race on slicks for 3 months before hitting my first 12 second pass. Going to slicks alone was a big change that I had to adjust to before I got the hang of and learned to shift better, etc… Take your time, get comfortable in the car and have fun with it. Do that and you’ll achieve your goal.
Now that you know the key components to get into the 12’s you have to keep it all together. In the above situation I would highly recommend an aftermarket shifter just to help keep the transmission alive longer. The biggest weakness in the above is the differential and axles. Not to say they can’t take some abuse because they can, mine went almost a full year of launches on slicks before breaking. I would look at a set of 31 spline axles and an Eaton or Ford 31 spline differential beefed up to keep the back end in one piece.
5spd GT said:Again, compare them to a similar weighted 94/95 5.0L. Then we will do bolt-on for bolt-on. I know our 98 gt isn't going to loose at full weight
You keep trying to spin off your stories and strecth them to get your desired length, kind of like a fishing story of the coast of Florida
You really must have bad weather when these guys race or bad drivers, I assume the later...because those cars aren't pulling those slower of mph's down here.
Bolton for bolton the fox body seems to be giving these GT's all they can handle and if you build them both to the EXTREME the 5.0 wins again. Do them both n/a only and the 5.0 kills them badly. Boltons, built to the extreme, the 5.0 and or Fox Body takes home the W.
Dunno about fish storys, I dont fish, I am into cars and racing though and I belive thats what we are referring to here.
It hardly takes a good driver to pull off a decent time in an auto GT yet when I drove my friend's 4R70W I ran the fastest time of the night in it.Nothing in the world changes the fact that in the video I posted, the 4.6 lost, even with it's perfection engine and factory advantages it lost. Nothing can be done about that race because it's already in the record books.
Speeds8erM-1 said:Bolton for bolton the fox body seems to be giving these GT's all they can handle and if you build them both to the EXTREME the 5.0 wins again. Do them both n/a only and the 5.0 kills them badly. Boltons, built to the extreme, the 5.0 and or Fox Body takes home the W.
Dunno about fish storys, I dont fish, I am into cars and racing though and I belive thats what we are referring to here.
Nothing in the world changes the fact that in the video I posted, the 4.6 lost, even with it's perfection engine and factory advantages it lost. Nothing can be done about that race because it's already in the record books.
Yep, in and the two zo6's I have beat up to 100mph + is also in the record books...but I don't spread it around like butter...I know which is better.
25thmustang
Mustang Master
I will just say this, as far as that car in the video, it is definately not the normal. And you dont have to tell me, I went faster with similar mods (I had gears, but went a good bit faster even with the same 60's) but the truth is, mid 8s with basic bolt ons isnt what they all run. I have seen 12.6-12.7 stock long block cars, and 14 second HCI ones.
Here is what I will say, in this scenario the fox is faster. Cant deny that, you can compare and pick apart the combo if you like (I wont do that) but the fox won and has been faster. Now on my point, that fox is running very good times for the mods, and the GT also. Drivers could knock a 10th off any car not driven to potential. Also tuning, shift points etc... can all play roles. I have driven many cars where I get better times than the owner for the simple reason I drive it better. And we arent talking bad drivers, just not getting every ounce out of the car.
I see both points here, and nice to see two people argue and not threaten to kick each others ass, and bomb their house.
Where I stand is what I said before. On average stock vs stock the GT is going to win. Mod for mod the 5.0 starts to even the playing field, and when we talk full bolt ons, I feel its a drivers race. Both will run in the 12s with bolt ons and traction.
Here is what I will say, in this scenario the fox is faster. Cant deny that, you can compare and pick apart the combo if you like (I wont do that) but the fox won and has been faster. Now on my point, that fox is running very good times for the mods, and the GT also. Drivers could knock a 10th off any car not driven to potential. Also tuning, shift points etc... can all play roles. I have driven many cars where I get better times than the owner for the simple reason I drive it better. And we arent talking bad drivers, just not getting every ounce out of the car.
I see both points here, and nice to see two people argue and not threaten to kick each others ass, and bomb their house.
Where I stand is what I said before. On average stock vs stock the GT is going to win. Mod for mod the 5.0 starts to even the playing field, and when we talk full bolt ons, I feel its a drivers race. Both will run in the 12s with bolt ons and traction.
The GT in the video isnt the 8.4 car, thats another 03 GT from around here. Him and the notch did run one night but the video never got posted. First run they both spun from a 20ish roll, the GT spun and was right on the notches door, they ran again, they both hooked and yet the Notch was pulling away better on that run then the GT missed a gear. Mixed results but thats the 8.4's GT not the GT from the video posted.
The average 5.0 doesnt run those times because alot of people are jackasses or have older busted up cars. My 88 GT ran a 8.61 taking it to the track for the first time with the car, spun the ET Streets and only ran twice, ran in the heat of August, if I had ran in the same weather as the notch and the 03 GT's 8.4's, I could have gone low 8.30's or faster with a balls to the walls launch. Could have gone faster that night but that track sucks and the lanes closed. Thats three 5.0 cars that have run close to the same times at the same track. Throw in my friend's 90 LX Hatchback with minor mods running the same times as his 00 GT and my point is coming across even better.
Alot of 5.0 guys lose on the street because they come out with their stock heads, cam and intake and try to roll race with a set of 3.73's and 4.10's and then wonder why they are getting raped. Low RPM car and lots of gear = lose on the highway most of the time.
:Zip2:
First run they both spun from a 20ish roll, the GT spun and was right on the notches door, they ran again, they both hooked and yet the Notch was pulling away better on that run then the GT missed a gear. Mixed results but thats the 8.4's GT not the GT from the video posted. The average 5.0 doesnt run those times because alot of people are jackasses or have older busted up cars. My 88 GT ran a 8.61 taking it to the track for the first time with the car, spun the ET Streets and only ran twice, ran in the heat of August, if I had ran in the same weather as the notch and the 03 GT's 8.4's, I could have gone low 8.30's or faster with a balls to the walls launch. Could have gone faster that night but that track sucks and the lanes closed. Thats three 5.0 cars that have run close to the same times at the same track. Throw in my friend's 90 LX Hatchback with minor mods running the same times as his 00 GT and my point is coming across even better.
Alot of 5.0 guys lose on the street because they come out with their stock heads, cam and intake and try to roll race with a set of 3.73's and 4.10's and then wonder why they are getting raped. Low RPM car and lots of gear = lose on the highway most of the time.
:Zip2:
5spd GT said:
Define "better", I could have sworn we were talking racing and the type of race that happened. The Z06 apparently agreed to the race and lost but I do feel somebody with a mindset like me or my friend's would own you but thats the difference between a RACER's mindset and a casual driver's mindset.
What because you own a 93 LX you shouldnt race it, or modify it, you should only yearn for those who spent more? Im all about the newer cars but bragging about a new GT having better interior, brakes and such is pointless. In alot of people's mind a newer GT is garbage and a cheap car next to theirs and thats a ****ty way of thinking. Although I do PREFER a car that is all around and not a drag whore. Then again a bolton 5.0 on Ponys with 3.08 gears and cold ac isnt exactly a drag whore either.
Brandon, friend of mine, just put in 4:10's in his stock 95 gt. Will see how much the mph improves on saturday...
I also messed with a Lambo once to 60mph...beat him too...I guess the foxes are better than Lambo's...
I also messed with a Lambo once to 60mph...beat him too...I guess the foxes are better than Lambo's...
Speeds8erM-1 said:Define "better", I could have sworn we were talking racing and the type of race that happened. The Z06 apparently agreed to the race and lost but I do feel somebody with a mindset like me or my friend's would own you but thats the difference between a RACER's mindset and a casual driver's mindset.
What because you own a 93 LX you shouldnt race it, or modify it, you should only yearn for those who spent more? Im all about the newer cars but bragging about a new GT having better interior, brakes and such is pointless. In alot of people's mind a newer GT is garbage and a cheap car next to theirs and thats a ****ty way of thinking. Although I do PREFER a car that is all around and not a drag whore. Then again a bolton 5.0 on Ponys with 3.08 gears and cold ac isnt exactly a drag whore either.
Better equals better aero, lighter, handles better, more power, faster, brakes better, etc...etc...better gas mileage, etc...any questions?
I'm not bragging, just stating the facts...
By the way, I have no problems with 99+ gt's...and believe me, I would know...I see you are getting flustered, you see the holes in your story...only posting the "best"...keep it coming
5spd GT said:Better equals better aero, lighter, handles better, more power, faster, brakes better, etc...etc...better gas mileage, etc...any questions?
I'm not bragging, just stating the facts...
By the way, I have no problems with 99+ gt's...and believe me, I would know...I see you are getting flustered, you see the holes in your story...only posting the "best"...keep it coming
How about this for better, an important thing is "fun to drive" and fox bodys, even slow ones are some of the funnest cars to drive, hands down.
matt93notch said:
Look at average trap and average E.T., the 99+ (auto or 5spd) get the nod. They trap faster and e.t. quicker on average. It usually works itself out...
Funner to drive is all in opinion, I have drove "funner" cars than a fox. Sad?
5spd GT said:Look at average trap and average E.T., the 99+ (auto or 5spd) get the nod. They trap faster and e.t. quicker on average. It usually works itself out...
Funner to drive is all in opinion, I have drove "funner" cars than a fox. Sad?
The auto 99-04 cars dont run faster on average. My friend's 03 5 Speed ran 9.3's@77 MPH, could it have done better at the time? Yea. Is it an auto which is much slower stock? No. The auto cars without gears at the SAME TRACKS in the SAME weather HERE dont run faster.
I need to find the timeslip of the 9.4 pass I ran in that 01 GT automatic, pulleys, filter, exhuast, I ran the fastest time of the night in it too.
You seem to be down on foxes pretty bad, you must be one of those people that thinks you gotta have something newer or people wont like you.
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