65mm-70mm tb

[nmcgrawj]

Joe & Mike...we might as well drop this arguement because they are not going to bend or even try to see what we are saying. Saying a 75mm TB is TOO LARGE for a h/c/i 302 n/a is comedy...

And David, i wonder if you are referring to anyone here about wanting to be "different" and run a 75mm. I agree with if it aint broke dont fix it....but if something could work better, then upgrade Im a noob in this performance game...and im running what the Professional Jay Allen who designed my cam said to run...just like i know Ed Curtis recommends to run. So maybe those professionals just want to be "different" but hey....they know A LOT more than most guys here.

And just so we can all shut up about this, redSN95vert from Corral who just ran a 11.9 in his vert with h/c/i n/a 302 just switched to a 80mm TB. He skipped a 75mm and he used to run a 65mm when he ran the 11.9 in the 1/4. He already told me that he lost NO bottom end and that it feels stronger....but i know the "butt-o-meter" wont be good enough for you guys and i think he was taking it out today to test it. We will see....

 

[Black95GTS]

Oh well if it regulates velocity so well, then why don't we all just get 55mm tbs and 17 pound injectors off of T-birds and run those. Trying to cram all the air that an HCI 302 needs through that will certainly increase velocity. In fact, if we all got 50's it could be like having a little turbo charger.

Or maybe a turbonator.

 

[nmcgrawj]

Oh well if it regulates velocity so well, then why don't we all just get 55mm tbs and 17 pound injectors off of T-birds and run those. Trying to cram all the air that an HCI 302 needs through that will certainly increase velocity. In fact, if we all got 50's it could be like having a little turbo charger.

Or maybe a turbonator.

Its funny that they keep saying "low rpm throttle response" and guys KEEP putting 75mm and larger TB's on their h/c/i 302 n/a motors and have NO drop in the response down low. Sure you wanna get a dyno sheet? Well most people arent into building Dyno Queens, its about how it feels on the street and depending on the person, how it runs at the track.

If professionals recommend it, why wouldnt you run it? Sure a 65mm or 70mm WILL WORK, but i hate when people say a 75mm is TOO BIG. A 75mm will work just as good and do everything just as well if not better.

 

[greenlantern]

Well hell why stop at 75mm accufab makes 80mm and 90mm race throttle bodies why not go all out and get one those.

 

[NoSloCoupes]

I always get a kick out of the tb threads...i guess Grn took over 86Cobra's role in his absence of late,lol.

I ran a 90mm tb on my little n/a 306.

 

[nmcgrawj]

Well hell why stop at 75mm accufab makes 80mm and 90mm race throttle bodies why not go all out and get one those.

Well if you read redSN95vert on corral is already doing a 80mm TB with no loss in throttle response

And besides why dont you treat TB's with the thought of intakes in terms of size......a 65-70mm could be a performer/street heat while a 75mm could be a performer RPM or Trackheat. It kills me that you guys think that if you go above a 65mm that you might as well go as big as possible. Thats not the case as its not with intake manifolds.

This is a joke

 

[nmcgrawj]

And for all you chumps who love going against what Pro's say and what people who have real experiences say..... i just got word from Willie(redSN95vert) over at Corral. He just replied back to my private message after he got home from the track..... here is his PM.


Hi there, Willie here with proof for you.

11.90 @ 114.75

Thats almost 2MPH with an 80 MM Throttle !!!
I need to learn how to post a slip !!
BTW fastest Vert anyway (Heavy car)

(this is his signature before)
__________________
95 GT Convertible
98 Explorer Engine(5.0)

Engine mods:
Twisted Wedges(unported)
RPM II Intake, 42# Inj.
Crower Cam #514

Osceola Mustang ---407-460-8469

CFT(Microtech) Engine Management
321-235-9959

Best :
12.483 @ 106.81(P-heads,E-cam combo)
11.969 @ 113.03 (65mm TB)


And for you who still will say,"well i bet he lost low rpm driveability or throttle response" He already said his throttle response was as crisp as before.

And ya know...something tells me you guys are going to find a problem with this example

 

[Joes95GT]

Well hell why stop at 75mm accufab makes 80mm and 90mm race throttle bodies why not go all out and get one those.

LOL. You'll love a combo that my Dad just built for a guy he knows.

308 CID, 10.5:1 compression - AFR 205 heads, Vic Jr. manifold, the cam had less than 234* of duration on both sides, 90mm TB, 42 lb/hr injectors, 80mm MAF, 1 7/8 stepped headers to 3.5" exhaust, 4.30 gears. The car is a street/strip car, and guess what RPM it'll be shifted at...8000 RPM? Nope. 6500-6700 RPM. Pump gas street car.

Cripes, the heads, manifold, TB, injectors, headers and exhaust are "too big". The cam is "too small" and the MAF is the only thing that is "OK." Guess what it's gonna run? 10's on BFG's - the guy said he's going to burn it if it doesn't.

But all that junk is too big though, right?

I was reading a thread a few days ago on one of those "other" websites where Jay Allen (Ed Curtis' "rival," for lack of a better term) said a switch from 1.6:1 roller rockers to 1.7:1 yielded a 7 RWHP loss. Guess how that affected the car? It went a tenth and a half faster. Let's get our heads out of the magazines, fellas.

I'll back off the idea of a 75mm TB for just a second....

The opening to an Edelbrock Performer manifold is 70mm. Why would you use anything else? [UEdelbrock[/U] MADE it that way. Shouldn't you take the hint....? If they wanted you to use a 65mm TB, they would have made the opening 65mm. I think.....

Joe

 

[cobra dave]

What size TB should I use? Installing Tw heads, street intake and stage 1 cam on 94 GT vert. I've been told both 65 and 70.

jimmy

Welcome to stangnet dude!

 

[BlackVert]

the "75 is too big" thing is a myth. if 75 isn't too big for a 4.6, why would it be too big for a 5.0? the velocity comes from the air rushing through the intake valves into the cylinders, not through the t/b. the t/b is too far away from the injectors and valves to make any difference in velocity.

i am going with a 70mm for 2 reasons: that is the size of my elbow, and i could get one cheap for my 95. my street heat intake is 75mm. and i am going with a 80mm maf, because i happen to have one from my 1996 sitting in my garage, and the electronics fit perfectly. if the rest of my intake track were 75mm, i'd go with that instead, even if i had to switch to a 87-93 setup to get there.

 

[greenlantern]

Fellas bolt on what ever you like. Obviously if we are talking about something like this.
308 CID, 10.5:1 compression - AFR 205 heads, Vic Jr. manifold, the cam had less than 234* of duration on both sides, 90mm TB, 42 lb/hr injectors, 80mm MAF, 1 7/8 stepped headers to 3.5" exhaust, 4.30 gears. The car is a street/strip car, and guess what RPM it'll be shifted at...8000 RPM? Nope. 6500-6700 RPM. Pump gas street car.

Of course you are going to need a bigger throttle body, I never said there was a one size fits all gimmie a break. I was talking about a mace6's combo. Big difference fellas.

 

[5spd GT]

nmcgrawj - I lose any kind of respect when name-calling gets involved (ex: chumps)...

I would like dyno results of the whole rpm spectrum...SOTP isn't good for me...I don't think I have ever said a 75mm TB will slow you down...but is simply not needed for a street car...because when your at the drag strip (even in your "street" car)...your above 3500rpm probably 97-98% of the time...once you get off the launch (depending on car)...so the HP will overrule the SOTP feel in the RPM range and will net you better MPH/E.T...I never doubted that I can recall...

Joes95GT - Joe, I would never recommend a TB based on the "stock" opening of an aftermarket intake...to many people's combos differ even if they have the same intake...much more factors than that...

Either side doesn't have much to backup their claims...but I know what I have seen/felt...which is the same for the "bigger" guys...

I personally believe that people need to give consideration to an actual combo in question instead of automattically posting "75mm" or vice versa...I base my opinions given to the combo in question...not just a general answer as how the 75mm will be fine...or "again" vice versa...

Oh and comparing the size TB on a 4.6L to a 5.0L...is about like comparing apples/oranges...they are both in the produce section at your local grocery store but two different fruits (engines)...again more factors need to be accounted for...

 

[Grn92LX]

And for all you chumps who love going against what Pro's say and what people who have real experiences say..... i just got word from Willie(redSN95vert) over at Corral. He just replied back to my private message after he got home from the track..... here is his PM.


Hi there, Willie here with proof for you.

11.90 @ 114.75

Thats almost 2MPH with an 80 MM Throttle !!!
I need to learn how to post a slip !!
BTW fastest Vert anyway (Heavy car)

(this is his signature before)
__________________
95 GT Convertible
98 Explorer Engine(5.0)

Engine mods:
Twisted Wedges(unported)
RPM II Intake, 42# Inj.
Crower Cam #514

Osceola Mustang ---407-460-8469

CFT(Microtech) Engine Management
321-235-9959

Best :
12.483 @ 106.81(P-heads,E-cam combo)
11.969 @ 113.03 (65mm TB)


And for you who still will say,"well i bet he lost low rpm driveability or throttle response" He already said his throttle response was as crisp as before.

And ya know...something tells me you guys are going to find a problem with this example

Sweet!! Yet another example of a pump gas little n/a 302 GAINING with a "huge" TB. I love it I should have went with the 75mm race TB which has a 90mm opening. Only reason I didnt was because then i'd have to make my own air intake and it also didnt have the port for the oill fill vacuum hose. That guys car is unbelievable. Its tuned and driven on point.

 

[Tubo(2-bo)]

After a topic reaches acertain point there is only one way to settle it.GRUDGE MATCH @the track. After all thats why we race'em.

 

[NoSloCoupes]

Picked up 8rwhp on the dyno from switching to the 90 from a 70. Car had ported tfs heads,victor intake, afm n91 cam, 1 3/4 longtubes, yadda yadda. Laid down 368rwhp untuned and ran 11.65 @117mph without a tach(broke on my burnout). Short shifted every gear by ear, bogged on gear change. I had no loss in throttle response in switching either. This was a street car first as it ony hit the dragstrip once with that combo.

My other car i ran the 75...was going to put a race 75 on at the time but they were out of them. That car was fun too..n/a 302 with the same parts as above put down 376rwhp but only ran it once as well on drag radials..12.03 @ 115mph.

 

[nmcgrawj]

nmcgrawj - I lose any kind of respect when name-calling gets involved (ex: chumps)...

Quit your whining...A little touchy are we? i didn't mean any disrespect but i guess it was easy to know who i was talking to Besides, I could have said something a lot worse if i wanted to be disrespectful.


Relax dude, its all fun in here....its ok that you dont want to believe real numbers. It doesn't matter how many people come in and say that they gained with a bigger TB.

 

[5spd GT]

Quit your whining...A little touchy are we? i didn't mean any disrespect but i guess it was easy to know who i was talking to Besides, I could have said something a lot worse if i wanted to be disrespectful.


Relax dude, its all fun in here....its ok that you dont want to believe real numbers. It doesn't matter how many people come in and say that they gained with a bigger TB.

Did I ever say you don't gain with the TB?

Quit whining? Or quit being mature? Which one is it?

Namecalling shows a loss of control...you can't put out a clear thought...

 

[nmcgrawj]

Did I ever say you don't gain with the TB?

Quit whining? Or quit being mature? Which one is it?

Namecalling shows a loss of control...you can't put out a clear thought...

Yea ok...and i guess you never call anyone names do you? Get over it. If you are offended that someone said "chump" than i dont know what to tell you. It wasn't meant as disrespect and I find it hard to believe that you are so mature that you never joke around and call people you are talkin to names...and i wasn't trying to disrespect you but if you feel like that, i apologize, but seriously, its the internet....GET OVER IT.

Loss of control? I really dont care for control over you or a thread like this. Its clear that you are going to stick to your word which is fine. And how about this for clear....stop saying a 75mm is best used for blown or stroked applications because as we see its NOT the case. Newbies coming on these boards read that and think that they cant or shouldnt put a 75mm on their h/c/i 302 or whatever combo because its too BIG. Just like greenlantern who said installing a too large of TB will hurt you like installing too large of Carb. LOL I never heard something so wrong before. A carb needs velocity...a TB doesnt. The rest of the fuel injected combo will create the velocity that the engine needs. In this specific combo, the street heat intake and heads will make the velocity...he doesn't need a 65mm or 70mm for the sake of "velocity". You guys are so caught up on having velocity this and velocity that

Its time that these internet forums get correct info out to people. If YOU dont think he needs a 75mm, then say that. Dont say that he needs a stroker or to be blown for a 75mm. Because he is going to think that a 75mm will be too big and its NOT. A 80mm TB was just proved NOT to be too big and that was on a motor with BIGGER intake runners which would decrease the air velocity RIGHT? But he went faster and had just as much throttle response as before. All this on a heavy vert!

Get the facts straight...it might be your opinion not to run a 75mm and thats fine. But dont mislead people by saying that 75mm TB's are too big and you should be stroked or blown to TRULY see a benefit from them. You keep asking for dynos of the whole RPM spectrum....I'm not sure why if someone's car feels just as strong down low and their times were faster at the track..what else do you want? Im not into having a dyno queen. What matters is how the car feels on the street and how it runs at the track. But this can be different for you and its fine to state your opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own just dont mislead guys who know nothing.

 

[Joes95GT]

Joe, I would never recommend a TB based on the "stock" opening of an aftermarket intake...to many people's combos differ even if they have the same intake...much more factors than that...

You're right to an extent. I would use the 70mm as a base size, since that's the size of the opening; start at 70mm and work from there.

I personally believe that people need to give consideration to an actual combo in question instead of automattically posting "75mm" or vice versa...I base my opinions given to the combo in question...not just a general answer as how the 75mm will be fine...or "again" vice versa...

You left yourself open on this one...

So how do you determine which size throttle body the combination needs? What is the determining factor? Say if I'm using TFS heads, a Performer intake manifold, and a Crower 15512 cam, what size TB?

It is my personal preference to have the lower manifold as the "most" restricting part of the combination, albeit slightly. Since the lower manifold is nothing more than an extension of the intake port on the cylinder heads, the slightest bottleneck in the lower manifold will promote velocity behind the intake valve. When the intake valve is cracked, there is going to be TONS of air getting into those cylinders. That's cylinder fill, and that's the name of the game in these short stroke motors.

Joe

 

[5spd GT]

I mislead huh?... ...um...nope...

So the next time I call someone chump I don't mean any disrespect...you said it in haste... ...kind of cheap if you ask me...

The fact that you have no experience with TB's makes me question who is misleading...

Did I say a 75mm is BEST?...nope...I put "A 75mm would be more ideal for a stroked or blown car..."

YOU PUT: "If YOU dont think he needs a 75mm, then say that."...

Well my answer to that is...I did say that...


What makes your facts better than my facts? Any experience...or just what you get from emails/forums/...hmm...sounds familiar...

"Again"...I never said a bigger TB like a 75mm or 80mm would slow you down? Point me where I said that since you keep alluding to that...I'll be waiting...

Oh and I don't get flustered on topics of throttle bodies...kind of silly if you ask me...I take your "advice" with a grain of salt...but some of these others with experience I take the whole shaker...while your just preserving...

Show me a dyno run with a TB swap...

Telling me that I'm misleading...