camber/caster woes after 5 lug swap-suspension advice needed!!

[txstang84]

hey guys, after I did my 5 lug swap last year (still running stock '84 k-member and stock control arms with '95 spindles) I've noticed every place I take my car to get an alignment, they can't get enough camber or caster out of the adjustable plates I have. The firestone I took my car to after installing the plates showed that I only netted about 1* of positive caster, and about - 0.3* camber...that was with the plates as far in and as far back as they would go.

I did a little research and discovered that the earlier models used a 1" narrower member, and I'm thinking with the '95 spindles this is causing my lack of adjustability-is this correct?

Also, NO ONE I take it to can properly adjust my toe in, so coupled with the lack of caster it's needless to say I'm left with a rut happy car that requires constant steering attention-this problem is about to drive me nuts-if not into a guardrail or oncoming traffic first...

I've contemplated getting a new tubular member from QA1, or D&D...do any of you know if this would cure my handling ills?

any feedback is appreciated

 

[87'GTstang]

First off what caster/camber plates do you have?
Second, camber can be adjusted fairly easily: either you can use aftermarket caster/camber plates and/OR install cam-eccentric strut-to-spindle bolts which can give you additional camber. When I last messed with the alignment on mine I think if I remember correctly that I put it at -.5 camber and 2.0 for caster. You need more positive caster no doubt, more will create better straightline stability, but don't go crazy with it (3* would be pushing too much).

As for the toe there are a few things you can check. I first aligned mine thinking no big deal i'll just get it done. However it felt sloppy as hell still, so I went back to checking it all out. I had rack bushings shot (take a prybar and pry fore and aft between the k-member and the rack), and I had control arm bushing completely crapped out (again prybar between the A-arms and the k-member, tire and the ground with the car lifted).

Also. it wasn't the case with mine, however to check a balljoint on a modified macpherson suspension, place a jack under the lower control arm, and pull up underneath the tire with a prybar. If you however have a wear-indicating balljoint, then if you cannot see the greasable fitting any longer, then replace it regardless of how it checks out.

Hope this gives you some things you can check out. I was an alignment tech for awhile and I know a lot of the guys out there don't check things properly for **** because they are thinking of the almighty dollar, "set the toe and let it go" is all most think of.

 

[txstang84]

ok, here's where I'm slightly ashamed to admit I fell prey to the cheap camber caster plates-they're MAC.

But, I know camber can be adjusted pretty easily, I'd thought about buying the offset bolts, but if you saw how far in these things are...man, you'd cry...and I still can't even get 0.5*! I know I need more caster, for the stability, I initially read about it in "MUSTANG PERFORMANCE HANDBOOK 2", but I can't put the caster adjusters any further back than they already are.

as far as the toe adjustment, I did do an initial eyeball job in my driveway, just so I could get it to the alignment shop-they set it to what they're machine said was good...and I've been back to them three times to get the toe adjusted, but yet, I can still see the the tires are visibly toed out! If I can see it with the naked eye, surely the laser rack can see it.

I've checked all my components, rack bushings are good, ball joints are good...control arm bushings may need to be changed, but I know they're not THAT bad, lol.

In your opinion do you think I'd be ok to get the eccentric strut bolts, and some new control arm bushings?

 

[txstang84]

thanks for the reply btw!

 

[txstang84]

bump

 

[2000xp8]

Honestly i'd start off with a better set of plates. Use the MM set. When you call them, ask what they would do in your situation, the are pretty good with suspensions.

As long as the shock shaft is not pressed up against the side of the hole (that the shock goes through) and the plates aren't up against the fender there probably is more adjustablity to be had. I believe you can even elongate some of the fixed plate holes to get more camber, but do more research before you go trying that.

 

[getusummm]

It sounds like you need the 95 control arms also. Replacing just the spindles will make the front track width different. The lazer machines just set the front of the tires to the back tires. I have this same problem because of 1/4" spacers on the front and not the back. Brought it to the tire shop and I actually ended up with toe out instead of toe in. Also, has your car been lowered? If so, you may also be getting bump steer. I had everything replaced and/or checked/set and still had a "rut happy" car. Installed a bumpsteer kit and all my problems went away. Good luck.

 

[txstang84]

It sounds like you need the 95 control arms also. Replacing just the spindles will make the front track width different. The lazer machines just set the front of the tires to the back tires. I have this same problem because of 1/4" spacers on the front and not the back. Brought it to the tire shop and I actually ended up with toe out instead of toe in. Also, has your car been lowered? If so, you may also be getting bump steer. I had everything replaced and/or checked/set and still had a "rut happy" car. Installed a bumpsteer kit and all my problems went away. Good luck.

well, I never knew that the laser racks just set them to the back-makes sense though, since my fronts have wider track than the rear, but fwiw, I also brought it to a shop that still used the old style manual rack...unfortunately, that was no better, and I've still got visible toe out.

yes, the car is slightly lowered, and bump steer is obvious, but I've got a whole host of alignment issues, and I'd like to get all the rest of my measurements correct before buying anymore parts...

I'd thought about getting the newer model control arms, but wouldln't I be better off using a new k-member? I've read the tubulars have revised angles which help ackermann and anti dive issues as well...plus what I mentioned in the original post, the '84 crossmember is narrower by 1" than the later models which everyone seems to modify with no real issues.

Honestly i'd start off with a better set of plates. Use the MM set. When you call them, ask what they would do in your situation, the are pretty good with suspensions.

As long as the shock shaft is not pressed up against the side of the hole (that the shock goes through) and the plates aren't up against the fender there probably is more adjustablity to be had. I believe you can even elongate some of the fixed plate holes to get more camber, but do more research before you go trying that.

yea, I know...my fault for buying cruddy ones, but at that point, I hadn't heard anything bad about them...trust me, I kick myself everytime I look at them...

and most definitely, there is no more adjustability for either camber or caster.

good input guys, thanks

 

[getusummm]

You can go with a tubular K-member, but be aware that it will most likely move the front wheels forward and may lead to rubbing issues depending on your tire combo. Also, make sure you get the engine where you want it. Some aftermarket k-members move the engine back and/or lower. I am not up to date on the differences between different caster/camber plate manufacturers. Also, I just realized you changed the spindles and not just the hub and rotor. That is all that is required on the later models, not sure about yours though. The crossmember being narrower is probably the main reason for caster/camber issues. Sorry for the brain fart on that one. You may even consider just getting a later model k-member. People that have went aftermarket probably just about give them away. Just for giggles, you may want to try to set the toe in yourself. I set the steering wheel in the middle, then measure from rim to rim in front of the spindle and behind the spindle. I will say that I played with the caster/camber on mine when I first got it. It was real crappy to drive because of bumpsteer. The caster/camber adjustments helped slightly, but not enough to make any real difference. The bumpsteer kit did, however, make a night and day difference. Mine is a 90gt and lowered 1" with 93 cobra rims(factory, not aftermarket, hence the reason for the 1/4" spacers)by the way. Good luck

 

[txstang84]

much appreciated man, I tried to play with the toe adjustment myself before, but with nearly dismal results. But, I know that if I get a QA1 crossmember, it puts the engine in the stock place, but revises the angles for the control arms-better anti-dive and better ackermann steer...and yes, I'll be buying a bump steer kit as well.

unfortunately, I'll be doing this when I get back from being gone for Uncle Sam for a few months...oh well, I can still order the parts, and have them sent to the house-bet the wife will love that...

I can see the emails now-"what the hell is this heavy thing that just showed up at the door today?? where should I put it? who can I call to help me move it??"

thanks man