Sn 95 with 351 Cleveland Swap

Jw357

New Member
Sep 10, 2019
4
0
1
42
Virginia
I recently purchased a 95 3.8L Mustang for $700. I'm ditching the V6 and dropping in a 351. I have a set of TF heads I plan to use however I want to know a good cam combo since I plan to Turbo charge it. For gears I'm going to run 373. The ultimate goal here is to produce maximum hp for both street/strip application. Any suggestions would be appreciated!
 
  • Sponsors(?)


96pushrod

Advanced Member
May 15, 2018
563
339
73
27
Savannah
Just to clarify; you want to drop a cleveland in, when windsor parts are a dime a dozen nowadays? Why don't you save yourself some headache and just put a windsor in there.

I've got a cleveland sitting on a stand right now, with a set of 4v closed chamber heads and idk when I'll ever actually get around to using it since windsor stuff is just so easy to get.

3.73 is a lot of gear if you plan to go forced induction. You'll probably be happier with 3.27 or 3.55.
 
  • Like
Reactions: revhead347

revhead347

I have face herpes.
15 Year Member
Jun 14, 2004
7,545
705
204
39
Acworth, GA
I agree with 96pushrod, you seem a little in over your head. Let's slow down and work things out. Is this like a Cleveland you inherited from your grandfather that you feel honored to carry forward in family tradition, or did you read a bunch of nonsense on the internet and blow up on a forum half cocked? I'm not knocking the Cleveland engines, they were very well designed, and the aftermarket has finally started offering performance heads for them after ignoring them for many years. However!!!, given the persistent availability of performance parts for the Windsor, it is by far the better performance choice. I mean, you are looking at dropping like $2k just to get custom headers built for that engine to fit in an SN body. Where are we on this?

Kurt
 

Jw357

New Member
Sep 10, 2019
4
0
1
42
Virginia
I agree with 96pushrod, you seem a little in over your head. Let's slow down and work things out. Is this like a Cleveland you inherited from your grandfather that you feel honored to carry forward in family tradition, or did you read a bunch of nonsense on the internet and blow up on a forum half cocked? I'm not knocking the Cleveland engines, they were very well designed, and the aftermarket has finally started offering performance heads for them after ignoring them for many years. However!!!, given the persistent availability of performance parts for the Windsor, it is by far the better performance choice. I mean, you are looking at dropping like $2k just to get custom headers built for that engine to fit in an SN body. Where are we on this?

Kurt
Well since I'm a fabricator/welder I don't think fabrication is the issue. I found the engine cheap so I went with it. I'm simply asking for good advice on the engine build itself. What I stated were just ideas thrown out there to see if they'll work. If not I'm more than willing to listen to veteran builders like you awesome folks here! Yes I'm doing the engine work myself and have done slightly larger than stock builds however a lot changes happen when you go throwing a turbo in the mix. More air and fuel compression ratios and all that good happy stuff!
 

revhead347

I have face herpes.
15 Year Member
Jun 14, 2004
7,545
705
204
39
Acworth, GA
Well since I'm a fabricator/welder I don't think fabrication is the issue. I found the engine cheap so I went with it. I'm simply asking for good advice on the engine build itself. What I stated were just ideas thrown out there to see if they'll work. If not I'm more than willing to listen to veteran builders like you awesome folks here! Yes I'm doing the engine work myself and have done slightly larger than stock builds however a lot changes happen when you go throwing a turbo in the mix. More air and fuel compression ratios and all that good happy stuff!
Gotcha, that makes sense then. Those Cleveland engines are actually really cool. There are aftermarket aluminum heads for them and everything now. They got a bad rap compared to the Windsor because the actual Clevelands only had a 5 year production run. Then there was the 400M which was a big truck engine with compression so low, that most people regard it as a boat motor. However, you can combine parts from the two different engines to make them work well. So the Cleveland was availabe with 2V, 4V, and 8V heads. The 8V heads were only sold in Australia, and if you find a pair for sale, be prepared to pay as much as you would for a new hatchback. The V stands for Venturi, the heads are labeled based on which carb was put on the engine. Almost everything out there is 2V heads, and there are open chamber and closed chamber models of that head. I would just get aluminum heads for it since they are available now.

Now putting it in a Mustang is where you are going to struggle up stream. Very few people have used that engine in this car. So it's the little things that are going to get annoying, how to run lines, which motor mounts to use, etc. I assume this engine is going to be carbeurated?

Kurt
 

96pushrod

Advanced Member
May 15, 2018
563
339
73
27
Savannah
The nice thing is Cleveland’s use the same motor mounts as Windsor’s. Bellhousing is the same as well. If you have a complete engine, the swap is really quite straightforward. As far as accessory mount holes, I’m not sure if they’re similar to Windsor’s.
 

revhead347

I have face herpes.
15 Year Member
Jun 14, 2004
7,545
705
204
39
Acworth, GA
I think one of the tougher parts would be the oil pan. It's always the things that you don't even think about that end up causing the most hassle.

Kurt
 

CarMichael Angelo

Nobody appreciates me..I'm gonna cut my ear off
SN Certified Technician
Nov 29, 1999
11,859
12,799
234
62
Birmingham, al
m.imdb.com
This comes along every six months or so,...somebody wanting to install a Cleveland for whatever reason.
A Cleveland was the sht back when the Windsor had chicken peen exhaust ports. That was true if you had a drag car. But if going in a street car, a Cleveland was a poor choice. Matter of fact, it's documented all over the place, a stock 4 bbl head was a terrible port on a street car because it was TOO big..Couple that to the weird port floor bump, and manufacturers started making "port plates" to decrease the overall port size, and try to raise the port floor to compensate for the weird bump. Port velocity is poor, which equates to sluggish performance under 3000 rpm. Sluggish performance under 3000 rpm equates to suck ass gas mileage.

Put one on the street,...you'll get Christmas cards from OPEC thanking you for being such a good gas guzzling customer.

Add to that that clevelands have oil distribution issues, and back in the late 70's, the running gag ( if you had to guess what engine was under the hood of a particular Mustang) was if the thing was clattering..it was a Cleveland.About 60k miles and the things are noisy as hell. A Cleveland has to have its oil passages restricted to the top have of the engine, or the bottom half got starved.

Lastly, they are outright huge. Nowadays, the primary goal is to make power w/o having to lug around two hundred extra pounds...ever have to lift a cast iron Cleveland head over the fender? You'd remember if you did.

If you are having to buy heads for the thing, then yes,..you'll be able to skirt all if the factory design flaws, but..if you're having to buy everything...I just gotta ask.......

Why build a Cleveland?
 

96pushrod

Advanced Member
May 15, 2018
563
339
73
27
Savannah
I agree with everything mike is saying besides the weight. If comparing a 351w to Cleveland, they pretty much weigh the same, save but a couple pounds for a Cleveland. I had to yank a set of Cleveland heads with the manifolds still attached out of a 67 f100 a few months back. Was definitely not a good time.

If the op already has a good set of Cleveland heads, I think he may as well make use of them and build a Cleveland. You can still get swap oil pans, and I’m sure finding headers won’t be all that difficult.

Plus there aren’t a whole lot of sn95s with a 351c
 

WhiteCobra95

Member
May 2, 2006
268
7
19
I just saw this about a month ago when a buddy of mine bought a Cougar with a 351c. It looks like a nicer street option than the typical Victor intake converted for PFI. Maybe it helps with your plans.

351c TFS EFI Intake
 

JD08

Active Member
Apr 22, 2017
158
98
38
53
If you're serious, look for articles/forum posts around the internet by a guy named George Pence.

I've got a 1970 Mach 1 with a 351 Cleveland and a spare set of 4V open chamber heads sitting on a shelf. They're both heading out the door before long. Taking up space and frees up some money for other things. Besides, finding anyone with knowledge about the older stuff is getting harder and harder.
 

revhead347

I have face herpes.
15 Year Member
Jun 14, 2004
7,545
705
204
39
Acworth, GA
This comes along every six months or so,...somebody wanting to install a Cleveland for whatever reason.
A Cleveland was the sht back when the Windsor had chicken peen exhaust ports. That was true if you had a drag car. But if going in a street car, a Cleveland was a poor choice. Matter of fact, it's documented all over the place, a stock 4 bbl head was a terrible port on a street car because it was TOO big..Couple that to the weird port floor bump, and manufacturers started making "port plates" to decrease the overall port size, and try to raise the port floor to compensate for the weird bump. Port velocity is poor, which equates to sluggish performance under 3000 rpm. Sluggish performance under 3000 rpm equates to suck ass gas mileage.

Put one on the street,...you'll get Christmas cards from OPEC thanking you for being such a good gas guzzling customer.

Add to that that clevelands have oil distribution issues, and back in the late 70's, the running gag ( if you had to guess what engine was under the hood of a particular Mustang) was if the thing was clattering..it was a Cleveland.About 60k miles and the things are noisy as hell. A Cleveland has to have its oil passages restricted to the top have of the engine, or the bottom half got starved.

Lastly, they are outright huge. Nowadays, the primary goal is to make power w/o having to lug around two hundred extra pounds...ever have to lift a cast iron Cleveland head over the fender? You'd remember if you did.

If you are having to buy heads for the thing, then yes,..you'll be able to skirt all if the factory design flaws, but..if you're having to buy everything...I just gotta ask.......

Why build a Cleveland?
Eh...I'm going to disagree with all of that. I've worked on a good number of Cleveland engines in my time, and I don't think any of that is accurate. I think you are confusing the oiling issues with the 427 FE engine. It might be that the oil sold in the 70s was nothing like what is sold today, but C engines do just fine now. The canted valves on a C engine make it a hair bigger, but not much. I've never seen a Cleveland get noticably worse gas mileage or chug any worse than a Windsor.

Let's not forget that the C engine was a true 90 degree V8 built as a performance engine, and the W engine was built for pickup trucks. There is no doubt that it is easier and cheaper to build a high power W engine today, just because so damn many of them were made.

Kurt
 

CarMichael Angelo

Nobody appreciates me..I'm gonna cut my ear off
SN Certified Technician
Nov 29, 1999
11,859
12,799
234
62
Birmingham, al
m.imdb.com
Eh...I'm going to disagree with all of that. I've worked on a good number of Cleveland engines in my time, and I don't think any of that is accurate. I think you are confusing the oiling issues with the 427 FE engine. It might be that the oil sold in the 70s was nothing like what is sold today, but C engines do just fine now. The canted valves on a C engine make it a hair bigger, but not much. I've never seen a Cleveland get noticably worse gas mileage or chug any worse than a Windsor.

Let's not forget that the C engine was a true 90 degree V8 built as a performance engine, and the W engine was built for pickup trucks. There is no doubt that it is easier and cheaper to build a high power W engine today, just because so damn many of them were made.

Kurt
I guess is was a sign of the times..back in the late 70's when I was young and dumb, if you built a Cleveland to drag race,you expected to spin the thing to 7k rpm...

When you spin a Cleveland to 7 k this happens: * taken from " Ford 351 Cleveland: How to build for maximum performance"
"The problem with this approach is oil starvation to main and rod bearing journals at high RPM. Main and rod bearings share oil with the lifter galleys. Traditionally, mains and rods always had an exclusive oil galley. Starvation really isn’t a fair way to put it, however, because high-performance street Clevelands have adequate oil supply to all critical points throughout the engine proving Ford engineers did their job well. However, when you spin a Cleveland to high RPM (above 6,000), oil starvation exists at main and rod journals mostly.

When Ford developed the 427 FE side-oiler, it conceived the perfect lubrication system for a high-performance V-8 with the pressure relief valve installed in the block instead of the pump, which kept pressure and volume high throughout the system. This, of course, made manufacturing quite expensive and impractical for mass production. The 351C oiling system is typical of most mass-produced V-8s of the era with the pressure relief valve in the pump where oil is control- leaked back to the pan before ever reaching moving parts.

This problem is corrected when you limit oil flow to cam bearings and lifters and divert more of it to main and rod journals where it is needed most. While you’re at it, you need to increase volume and pressure to some degree with a high-volume oil pump and some adjustment to the pressure relief valve as necessary"

It's everywhere you wanna look,..Google 351 c oil fix, and you'll get quite a few articles on the problem.
 
  • Like
Reactions: revhead347

revhead347

I have face herpes.
15 Year Member
Jun 14, 2004
7,545
705
204
39
Acworth, GA
I guess is was a sign of the times..back in the late 70's when I was young and dumb, if you built a Cleveland to drag race,you expected to spin the thing to 7k rpm...

When you spin a Cleveland to 7 k this happens: * taken from " Ford 351 Cleveland: How to build for maximum performance"
"The problem with this approach is oil starvation to main and rod bearing journals at high RPM. Main and rod bearings share oil with the lifter galleys. Traditionally, mains and rods always had an exclusive oil galley. Starvation really isn’t a fair way to put it, however, because high-performance street Clevelands have adequate oil supply to all critical points throughout the engine proving Ford engineers did their job well. However, when you spin a Cleveland to high RPM (above 6,000), oil starvation exists at main and rod journals mostly.

When Ford developed the 427 FE side-oiler, it conceived the perfect lubrication system for a high-performance V-8 with the pressure relief valve installed in the block instead of the pump, which kept pressure and volume high throughout the system. This, of course, made manufacturing quite expensive and impractical for mass production. The 351C oiling system is typical of most mass-produced V-8s of the era with the pressure relief valve in the pump where oil is control- leaked back to the pan before ever reaching moving parts.

This problem is corrected when you limit oil flow to cam bearings and lifters and divert more of it to main and rod journals where it is needed most. While you’re at it, you need to increase volume and pressure to some degree with a high-volume oil pump and some adjustment to the pressure relief valve as necessary"

It's everywhere you wanna look,..Google 351 c oil fix, and you'll get quite a few articles on the problem.
I think that is a fair assessment. Factory 351C engines were never rated to run at 7000rpms. If you spin a stock 302 block to 7000rpms, you won't have to worry about oil issues, because the main caps will have already walked right out of the block.

Kurt
 

a91what

SendMeUrDataLog
Mod Dude
Apr 6, 2011
9,332
5,525
204
30
Hillsborough county
I think that is a fair assessment. Factory 351C engines were never rated to run at 7000rpms. If you spin a stock 302 block to 7000rpms, you won't have to worry about oil issues, because the main caps will have already walked right out of the block.

Kurt
FWIW we spin our stock block 331 to 7200 on the regular with lots of nitrous.... but it gets refreshed every couple months.
 

junkyardwarrior

Active Member
Jan 10, 2011
185
22
28
An iron head 4V cleveland can make a boat load of power; with stock iron 4v heads. The blocks aren't particularly strong but seem to work ok for a lot of folks.

I like the Clevelands (even the tall deck version). The windsor has it beat in the availability department. One can do a "hybrid", using cleveland heads on a windsor block. That gives you the availability of the windsor block, crank, and (usually) the rods for a stroker, yet using cleveland heads you can have the sound & look. Cleveland heads on a windsor block is a mean looking engine and unless the build is just totally screwed up, runs about as well as it looks (mean).


Having seen a ton of turbo swap projects, don't be like 80% of them--that never get done. My suggestion is to develop a plan from day one, grab a piece of paper and write down a parts list. Then look up what the parts cost, add about 50% to the total, and that's gonna be what you're looking at. Then add in dyno tuning, etc if that might be needed (and it's a good idea). Turbo swaps add up in cost-fast-and a lot of times faster than expected which is why a lot of them don't get finished, or they get halfway done and blown up in 10 minutes use. This is speaking from my own experience. Not trying to discourage anyone, rather trying to help.

As said a NA 4v iron head cleveland CAN make 500 engine HP with some careful planning. You didn't state a power goal but they're certainly capable. Turbo(s) can be "interesting" on a cleveland due to how the exhaust ports point downward, certainly doable though, just don't expect any off-the-shelf turbo headers (custom) or for that matter any of the hotside stuff.
 

revhead347

I have face herpes.
15 Year Member
Jun 14, 2004
7,545
705
204
39
Acworth, GA
An iron head 4V cleveland can make a boat load of power; with stock iron 4v heads. The blocks aren't particularly strong but seem to work ok for a lot of folks.
The 4V heads can make good power. However, the old fart trying to relive their youth hot rodder group has driven the price up on them quite a bit. If you can find a good deal on 4Vs, go for it, if not, get the aluminum heads.

Kurt
 
  • Like
Reactions: General karthief

revhead347

I have face herpes.
15 Year Member
Jun 14, 2004
7,545
705
204
39
Acworth, GA
FWIW we spin our stock block 331 to 7200 on the regular with lots of nitrous.... but it gets refreshed every couple months.
Is there are a particular reason you are running a stock block when the engine gets torn down every few months? I am glad to hear that you have had that kind of success with a stock block. I also don't see how refreshing it would help with the longevity of the block anyway.

Kurt
 

a91what

SendMeUrDataLog
Mod Dude
Apr 6, 2011
9,332
5,525
204
30
Hillsborough county
Is there are a particular reason you are running a stock block when the engine gets torn down every few months? I am glad to hear that you have had that kind of success with a stock block. I also don't see how refreshing it would help with the longevity of the block anyway.

Kurt
lol thats how often the engine gets hurt, you dont spin a stocker that high without checking the bearings... grudge car and the scramble button gets the better of us.