Sn 95 with 351 Cleveland Swap

Jw357

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Sep 10, 2019
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I recently purchased a 95 3.8L Mustang for $700. I'm ditching the V6 and dropping in a 351. I have a set of TF heads I plan to use however I want to know a good cam combo since I plan to Turbo charge it. For gears I'm going to run 373. The ultimate goal here is to produce maximum hp for both street/strip application. Any suggestions would be appreciated!
 
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96pushrod

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Just to clarify; you want to drop a cleveland in, when windsor parts are a dime a dozen nowadays? Why don't you save yourself some headache and just put a windsor in there.

I've got a cleveland sitting on a stand right now, with a set of 4v closed chamber heads and idk when I'll ever actually get around to using it since windsor stuff is just so easy to get.

3.73 is a lot of gear if you plan to go forced induction. You'll probably be happier with 3.27 or 3.55.
 
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revhead347

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I agree with 96pushrod, you seem a little in over your head. Let's slow down and work things out. Is this like a Cleveland you inherited from your grandfather that you feel honored to carry forward in family tradition, or did you read a bunch of nonsense on the internet and blow up on a forum half cocked? I'm not knocking the Cleveland engines, they were very well designed, and the aftermarket has finally started offering performance heads for them after ignoring them for many years. However!!!, given the persistent availability of performance parts for the Windsor, it is by far the better performance choice. I mean, you are looking at dropping like $2k just to get custom headers built for that engine to fit in an SN body. Where are we on this?

Kurt
 

Jw357

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I agree with 96pushrod, you seem a little in over your head. Let's slow down and work things out. Is this like a Cleveland you inherited from your grandfather that you feel honored to carry forward in family tradition, or did you read a bunch of nonsense on the internet and blow up on a forum half cocked? I'm not knocking the Cleveland engines, they were very well designed, and the aftermarket has finally started offering performance heads for them after ignoring them for many years. However!!!, given the persistent availability of performance parts for the Windsor, it is by far the better performance choice. I mean, you are looking at dropping like $2k just to get custom headers built for that engine to fit in an SN body. Where are we on this?

Kurt
Well since I'm a fabricator/welder I don't think fabrication is the issue. I found the engine cheap so I went with it. I'm simply asking for good advice on the engine build itself. What I stated were just ideas thrown out there to see if they'll work. If not I'm more than willing to listen to veteran builders like you awesome folks here! Yes I'm doing the engine work myself and have done slightly larger than stock builds however a lot changes happen when you go throwing a turbo in the mix. More air and fuel compression ratios and all that good happy stuff!
 

revhead347

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Well since I'm a fabricator/welder I don't think fabrication is the issue. I found the engine cheap so I went with it. I'm simply asking for good advice on the engine build itself. What I stated were just ideas thrown out there to see if they'll work. If not I'm more than willing to listen to veteran builders like you awesome folks here! Yes I'm doing the engine work myself and have done slightly larger than stock builds however a lot changes happen when you go throwing a turbo in the mix. More air and fuel compression ratios and all that good happy stuff!
Gotcha, that makes sense then. Those Cleveland engines are actually really cool. There are aftermarket aluminum heads for them and everything now. They got a bad rap compared to the Windsor because the actual Clevelands only had a 5 year production run. Then there was the 400M which was a big truck engine with compression so low, that most people regard it as a boat motor. However, you can combine parts from the two different engines to make them work well. So the Cleveland was availabe with 2V, 4V, and 8V heads. The 8V heads were only sold in Australia, and if you find a pair for sale, be prepared to pay as much as you would for a new hatchback. The V stands for Venturi, the heads are labeled based on which carb was put on the engine. Almost everything out there is 2V heads, and there are open chamber and closed chamber models of that head. I would just get aluminum heads for it since they are available now.

Now putting it in a Mustang is where you are going to struggle up stream. Very few people have used that engine in this car. So it's the little things that are going to get annoying, how to run lines, which motor mounts to use, etc. I assume this engine is going to be carbeurated?

Kurt
 

96pushrod

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The nice thing is Cleveland’s use the same motor mounts as Windsor’s. Bellhousing is the same as well. If you have a complete engine, the swap is really quite straightforward. As far as accessory mount holes, I’m not sure if they’re similar to Windsor’s.
 

revhead347

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I think one of the tougher parts would be the oil pan. It's always the things that you don't even think about that end up causing the most hassle.

Kurt
 

CarMichael Angelo

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This comes along every six months or so,...somebody wanting to install a Cleveland for whatever reason.
A Cleveland was the sht back when the Windsor had chicken peen exhaust ports. That was true if you had a drag car. But if going in a street car, a Cleveland was a poor choice. Matter of fact, it's documented all over the place, a stock 4 bbl head was a terrible port on a street car because it was TOO big..Couple that to the weird port floor bump, and manufacturers started making "port plates" to decrease the overall port size, and try to raise the port floor to compensate for the weird bump. Port velocity is poor, which equates to sluggish performance under 3000 rpm. Sluggish performance under 3000 rpm equates to suck ass gas mileage.

Put one on the street,...you'll get Christmas cards from OPEC thanking you for being such a good gas guzzling customer.

Add to that that clevelands have oil distribution issues, and back in the late 70's, the running gag ( if you had to guess what engine was under the hood of a particular Mustang) was if the thing was clattering..it was a Cleveland.About 60k miles and the things are noisy as hell. A Cleveland has to have its oil passages restricted to the top have of the engine, or the bottom half got starved.

Lastly, they are outright huge. Nowadays, the primary goal is to make power w/o having to lug around two hundred extra pounds...ever have to lift a cast iron Cleveland head over the fender? You'd remember if you did.

If you are having to buy heads for the thing, then yes,..you'll be able to skirt all if the factory design flaws, but..if you're having to buy everything...I just gotta ask.......

Why build a Cleveland?
 

96pushrod

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I agree with everything mike is saying besides the weight. If comparing a 351w to Cleveland, they pretty much weigh the same, save but a couple pounds for a Cleveland. I had to yank a set of Cleveland heads with the manifolds still attached out of a 67 f100 a few months back. Was definitely not a good time.

If the op already has a good set of Cleveland heads, I think he may as well make use of them and build a Cleveland. You can still get swap oil pans, and I’m sure finding headers won’t be all that difficult.

Plus there aren’t a whole lot of sn95s with a 351c