'88 GT Convertible - Croatia, Europe

snovak · May 31, 2021

Noobz347 said:
Wait... you ordered all of that but skipped the lifters???? Are lifters [that] expensive where you are?

I mentioned last 4 digits of M-6500-R302H lifters I bought. They cost me 261 bucks with delivery and customs fee to Croatia. Bargain, huh? :-(

Pushrods, rockers ... every valvetrain part has some wear and tear, I was cleaning them in winter, one by one. I did not mind to change every part from roller lifter to rocker arm, just to keep it runnin'. Therefore we did not measure too much....
Lifters are noisy, 3 of them 100%. Punching to rocker bolt. But....we are not sure if they are capable to produce knock we hear at idle ..

What I discovered latest this weekend by myself is #2 injector and #2 spark plug pointing to fuel leak which could (or not) be knock reason behind the scenes at the end. See my post before Your reply.

Guys, to be honest, no huge experience with 302 'round here, so we are a little bit tapping in the dark... We have mechanics here that can make racing wonders from junkyard 4/6 euro/japanese straight engines, but when they see US V8 they 'loose confidence'.
As stated above, highly reputable mechanic told me lifters, but he would not put a hand in fire and clearly told me that. But he was looking pretty confident it is not bottom end. I hope he is right for last one .....
That is partly why I am active here, I count on Your experience and directions ..

Noobz347 · May 31, 2021

Ok good. Whew... I missed where you had picked up the rockers.

Noobz347 · May 31, 2021

Lifters... I meant lifters.

General karthief · May 31, 2021

In defence of your mechanic friend most times, when dealing with knock, tick or clacking noise the issue may be stacked, bad lifter makes slop in drive train parts hence wear on those parts ie; rocker arms, push rods even valve stem caps suffer damage so pointing and identifying one thing to replace/repair would be guessing at best.
As for the hole (cylinder) with the leaky injector, yes, cylinder wash is a possibility,excess fuel washes the oil from the cylinder walls and wear on the piston, do a compression test on the engine and compare findings.

snovak · Jun 2, 2021

For God sake... What an amateur.... :-(
In panic and fear from knock, I did not connect egr and fpr vacuum lines like a noob... I was concentrated to knocking on 10 miles test drive. Car went like POS in low rpm, got misfire on #8.... balance test confirmed, but then I saw vacuum lines

Anyways, knocking 'goes away' with drive or rpm. Maybe seafoam gives some CPR to those tired lifters. I need to test oil pump pressure as precaution with gauge before tearing apart lower intake again. Dash gauge says okay.

Neverending story:
Brand new FMS started to leak, and 'protected' underside with oil film :-(. Another repair to do.
Then, when parking in garage I lost P on AOD lever, or it moved for 1 step (P is R, R is N)... Probably slipped throttle lever bolt at AOD pan due to oil.

I need to let that knock aside and concentrate until new valvetrain parts arrive....
Time to use Yoda again: "fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering"

WindsorPenchant · Jun 2, 2021

Ahh man you'll be a dab hand at whipping her into shape once you come through the other side with all this! It adds a whole new jeopardy when you've gotta wait on the overseas parts and there's no local knowledge to fall back on huh?

Been watching your thread for the 'Vert love and hoping you'll get to enjoy plenty of this well earned summer with that top down

snovak · Jun 2, 2021

Yeah @WindsorPenchant, I understand why people don't want to travel to Mars, ha ha ha.
It is a challenge, same like owning a Yugo in US (haha...okay that is more on dangerous side, but You get it...)

AOD lever cable at bottom bracket by pan got a 3/4" slack somehow (goes forward backward in bracket hole), and I could set it like that only to loose either P or 1.
Fixed it with 3/4 pipe flange to hold it tight. Lever is sharper than ever was since I got the car.

Today I did a Seafoam treatment to main vacuum line. Careful and gentle, only like 1/4 of bottle.
Well, hell of a dirty smoke brake loose and was pouring at 2k rpm some 2-3 minutes.
Seafoam is in crankcase also (less than 1/2 bottle) and I think lifters are getting more and more quiet with each ride. With one eyeball on oil pressure gauge, I drove total some 50 miles... Oil started to get dirty a bit.

@General karthief I was not believer in snake oils, but if it cures lifters I may be. Vacuum method could be a simple burning of flammable liquid as a matter of a fact, but something is happening in crankcase with lifters. They started to knock only on cold start again. True, I am also scared of anything beside engine oil in crankcase. Still not sure if I should leave it inside for another few dozen miles...

Oil leak could be above front main seal... I inspected today, crank snout / balancer is pretty clear at seal lip. May be a bad timing cover to oil pan gasket. Not loosing much oil, but it is messy.

Melling mpr-366 pushrods arrived today as first parcel. Dia 5/16" length 6.250". I just hope they will fit as I did not measure ones inside the other day and took stock ones at rockauto :-(. Everything is stock.
Waiting for lifters and rockers...

snovak · Jun 4, 2021

Okay. Today's news:
The other day I had miss in #8, cleaned the plugs. Today I cleaned all the plugs, now I got miss in #4 and #3... confirmed by cylinder balance test.
Exhaust burns eyes, KOEO, KOER no complaints except 94, 44 (removed thermactor temporary).
Confused... liqu moly injector cleaning liquid leftovers in tank could cause this? Injectors dying? Injector #2 is leaking either way occassionally, ordered 2 pcs and should be here next week....

Knock is more and more fading.
Oil pressure and fuel pump checked with mechanical gauge - they are 1:1 to stock dash gauge!! (50-60 cold, ~20psi hold idle).
As we have a upcoming car show here, I asked mechanic to drive a bit more with Seafoam and change oil? He is also not a fan of snake oils, but admits that knock is hard to hear after 50 miles of wonderliquid in crankcase. Agreed, drive, listen, change oil. If knock returns, teardown asap.
To be clear - I am not avoiding, just possibly postponing lifter job. All the parts from rocker arms to lifters are on the way...

Next, cleaned timing cover hard. After today's diagnose (engine running for 30 minutes due to oil pressure and cylinder balance test) oil is clearly dripping slowly (at idle) from second bolt above oilpan, drivers side. Damn. Everything else dry. See picture. Any recommendation or only a redo of timing cover will fix this?

Thnx guys!

General karthief · Jun 4, 2021

You could pull that bolt out, clean and use thread sealent, put it back, worth a try.
I would check the plug wires too.
Plugs smell like fuel?
Oil smell like fuel?

Noobz347 · Jun 4, 2021

Yep... If resealing that bolt stops all that mess it's worth trying first.

A good paste or even thread tape (high heat) should get you there.

I have this stuff in a container that looks like a glue stick.

Aha... This is it:

snovak · Jun 4, 2021

General karthief said:
You could pull that bolt out, clean and use thread sealent, put it back, worth a try.
I would check the plug wires too.
Plugs smell like fuel?
Oil smell like fuel?

Will try to tighten first and then, if fails seal that bolt.

Check post #159. Oil smells a bit like fuel. I was sure it was #2 leaking inside (beside outside like pictured), but now it seems like it may be "moving around fuel rail".
Spark plug 500 miles old, plug wires, cap and rotor are new. I have spare new dizzy, did not try it.

snovak · Jun 5, 2021

My gosh...sorry guys, I just punched myself and promised I will never, ever finish things in hurry round stang:
First EGR vacuum line the other day, and yesterday I swapped #4 and #3 plug wires. Fixed this morning, engine runs like swiss watch, strong and confident.

Tightened timing cover bolt while I was there, but no go. Oil still dripping. Bolt is oiled after drive, oil is gathering at lower cover lip where oil pan meets cover and from there makes mess while dripping in drive....
We need to lift the car, clean all and wait for a oil drip to determine source 101% and take action. Bolt sealing or redo of timing cover, mechanic will decide...

Lifter knock fades away more and more with each drive. Maybe it was only dirt and Seafoam is cleaning it slowly.... If they shut up I will change them either way, don't want a FRPP lifters sit in garage

Have a nice weekend!

General karthief · Jun 5, 2021

Yeah, it's the simple things that will trip us up.
Change the oil, add some more Seafoam. It just may clean it up enough to live. Drive a few miles, getting the engine up to temp a couple times, change the oil and ride it for a while

snovak · Jun 5, 2021

One step forward ... Two back.
It is not bolt after all .... It is a timing cover crack :-(
(see attached picture)

Any use from aluminium welding rods here?
Epoxy (like JB weld), liquid metal, or anything to temporary fix leak at this point? I don't know load at this location (drivers side lower upper bolt to block).

snovak · Jun 7, 2021

That is luck, I leak 12 days before car show... desperately trying to save the day :-(

No room for anything down there... even proper light... :-(
This may be sloppiest job I did on this car but I gave my best in tight space.
JB weld alternative in EU, up to 150° and ~19N/mm2 strenght. If I did it right, should hold for some time...
Clean, clean, clean and again clean...
Then roughed corner on timing cover and 0.02" aluminium sheet. Again clean, clean, clean. A good layer of liquid metal and pressed together.
Leftovers I pulled around to make "structural improvement" in corners around bolt. 24h is cure time, wish me luck....
If it will leak, last chance before taking cover out is gasket maker in bolt I suppose...

Noobz347 · Jun 7, 2021

Order a timing cover. It sucks but it just may keep you from burning the whole thing down with gas.

snovak · Jun 7, 2021

Noobz347 said:
Order a timing cover. It sucks but it just may keep you from burning the whole thing down with gas.

Yeah, I will at the end.
For fox vert GT '88 I should look for reverse pump and no accessories (dipstick, pointer) at bottom, like Pioneer 500302L, right?
This one:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pio-500302l

I think that rockauto has wrong covers in database for '88 :-(

Noobz347 · Jun 8, 2021

IT should be the same cover for 79-93.

snovak · Jun 9, 2021

Okay, I managed to stop leak with 2-component liquid metal above around bolt . For now!
BUT now I have a smaller leak further to outside driver side, a bare tip of DS timing cover where it meets oil pan (I suppose - I must clean area and remove cable bracket to gain access). Needs at least 20 mile trip to reveal itself.

Yesterday 30-mile test drive to detect leak revealed a slight occasional miss in coasting.
Gently hold with feather foot throttle when maintaining speed (cruising) and You will get it, WOT - no miss, deceleration I did notice it.
Spark plug wires, cap and rotor are new, spark plugs NKG UR45 used barely 500miles.
Mostly noticable in lower RPM, the car will clunk with AOD/shaft when it misses so You will know it missed. It is not repeatable, can be in 5 minutes only once or in 10 seconds twice. One of the injectors leaks a bit to outside (lower intake), could leaky injector be cause? I have a bit of fuelish smell on dipstick and oil cap.

Lifters, rockers, bridges and bolts are in Amsterdam . BUT "Trash&Burn" show is 6/18-6/19, so I don't know it it is really smart to dig into lower intake and change lifters now...
We are still knocking until warm, not audiable in drive. When You stop and idle, few minutes at idle and knocks warm also. It tells me that knock depends on rpm or oil pressure. Maybe it is in my head, it knocks regulary but now seems to me like every now and then one knock is less pronauncable.... I would call it knock at idle.

Noobz347 said:
IT should be the same cover for 79-93.

Maybe not for Your sources, but for 302 motors, I can find dozen types of timing covers:
- with or without mechanical pump
- with or without crank sensor mount
- with or without dipstick hole
- normal or reverse water pump
I have Ford RF-R5AE-6059-FA on car right now. That is 100% sure.
If You look at rockauto, mustang '88 has following available covers:
- first one ATP has crank sensor mount,
- second Pioneer 500302M "could be" according to look,
- third Pioneer 500302E seems to me like it has mechanical pump flange,
- last Dorman also has crank sensor mount.
Edit: found picture on my mobile, attached

snovak · Jun 9, 2021

Got it!!!!
It is not a different place, but oil found a way behind "JB welded" aluminum sheet. It is crawling down slowly by timing cover side and seems like gasket leak... See picture of leak source.
Liquid metal a.k.a. JB weld, step 2 tomorrow...

Made some nice inox wheel center caps in between. Laser marked and polished, with protective coat of clear paint as finish.

'88 GT Convertible - Croatia, Europe

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wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair

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wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair

Stangnet Facilities Maint Tech... Er... Janitor

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wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair

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Stangnet Facilities Maint Tech... Er... Janitor

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